Author Topic: Could you clarify that  (Read 906 times)

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Offline VineBranch

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Could you clarify that
« on: December 03, 2012, 06:54:31 PM »
What exactly do they believe?  What does that mean?  Who believes that doctrine?  What precisely does that verse say?  Do they really believe that?

It has been my experience that in a lot of the churches I have attended throughout my life, the things which the statement of belief or doctrines on the door say exist inside the church, actually don't.  People are people and as such we tend to blend things which started as two separate entities into some form of hybrid, which is then blended with something else.  As a rule, modern Christianity, as I see it, has become a sort of cultural Christian Baha'i.  We have taken from all that was around, kept what we wished and thrown the rest back, and now we have Christians who believe in wicca, or New Age Christians who assume God uses crystals to make prophets out of cats.  We have the notion which teaches that 'Christ was a good guy who said neat things, but come-on, the son of God'?

I suffered through the years when some Christians equated Christ with Buddha:  they were the same don't you know. 

I was raised with people who told me they believed 'in' (I still really don't know what that phrase means) the Bible, as long as it was translated correctly.  I thought that was probably an innocuous statement until I found out they had an addition to the Bible translated by one man, and no one every questioned the accuracy of his translation.  It seems as if there is always a way to gainsay scripture or modify it such that it agrees with what we wish to believe.

Most versions of the Bible I have read tend to say the same thing.  I have a friend who went to Hawaii and brought me back a Bible (New Testament) translated into Hawaiian pidgin from the original texts.  It say basically what my KJV says.  I just bought a copy of The Voice, and it says basically what the others say.

So, with all this support, how come we need to include 'stuff' (for those who are interested, stuff is my favourite English word)?

I thought it might be a good idea if we had one place where we could discuss what exactly someone means when they use a term.  They could reference it in their posts and then everyone who was in the discussion group could be on the same page (pun intended).  I was asked in a discussion on free-will if I believed in the Arminian or Libertarian doctrine.  The question, as I read it became:  what do you mean by that.  If we had a place where the 'that' was defined, then we could all know exactly how the doctrine/definition/name/idea etc. was defined.  If the topic needed more context, or information, we could provide a hyperlink to a website.  This might reduce the circumlocution which is often associated with discussion boards.

Do you think this idea has merit?

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 07:30:40 PM »
Yes I do think it has merit. How it would play out I am not sure, because there are so many terms.

For instance, when I talk about man's will being free, I mean that in time man is making decisions and is held accountable for them and is learning through them. I see this as "allowed by God with exceptions where He intervenes for our good", and  all within His purpose who has predestined all things to work according to the counsel of His will(Eph1).

However, some people, when they hear the term "free will" believe the person speaking it means that everyone in the universe is cast adrift upon a random sea of events initiated my man and to which God is trying to react( Adam and Eve sinned so God sent His son, etc. laughable I know but believed my multitudes), that our salvation is  purely a matter of our choice, etcetera.

In the reverse, some people, when they spake of God as sovereign ,mean that to the extreme that God initiates every thought and action that takes place in every being He ever created, and there is no accountability, reward or penalty because God is the source of good and evil- or that God has ordained some to be evil and pay the penalty and some to be good and reap the reward because He can do whatever He wants and doesnt care if we understand it or seek justice and equity from our Creator(Laughable also, but many believe it).

As you said, individuals from all over the spectrum of hybrid positions and hybrids of hybrids have a difficult time understanding one another. I believe this is a built in "Babel effect" from God. He has confused our language so we cannot get very far into the truth without the Holy Spirit. The Spirit always magnifies the cross(I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified). Babes stay in the "knowledge" of the word while maturing saints move on into the "wisdom" of the word. By "knowledge" of the word I mean terminology and systematic theology- the surface of the word.
By "wisdom of the word" I mean the underlying nature of God, the principles of the "whys" of God and the "ways" of God and walking in them.

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. ...........
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
(1Co 2:6-14)




This is why, altho I would be glad to participate in an effert such as the one you have presented, I think it would probably turn into more "strivings about words to no profit in the hearers", because.........

No Matter how many times I define my position, the nuances of it, my understanding of certain words and what I mean by them, PEOPLE KEEP RESPONDING TO ME ACCORDING TO WHAT THEIR DOCTRINE HAS TOLD THEM MY WORDS MEAN :o). I don't think it is that people don't want to communicate as much as I think it that they can't communicate because they cling to their ideas so desperately as if the thought of letting go enough to examine an alternate possibility is tantamount to the fabric of the universe coming apart :o)

I guess tho, you could have each participant post a brief "position paper" about what they believe when they use a certain word- if we could find an appropriate filing system for it- it could lead to some mutual understanding, at least, among those who were really interested in understanding someone else, rather than just expounding their own particular views.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 07:38:54 PM by eaglesway »
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 07:31:54 PM »
As a former missionary to the cults, statistics show that 70% of the members don't even know what their group believes.
I suspect the same is true in most churches. It does all seem to stem from redefining words. (In the cults, they keep hidden some of the more wacko doctrines and withold this information from people they are talking to) It's one of the reasons you can talk to a cult person and they will give you "the right" answers in your mind but in their mind, they have redefined the words so that they are actually saying something totally different.
Nowadays, the "successful" churches are keeping eternal torment/torture for the non-believer way in the background.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 07:41:02 PM »
Yea, they are keeping a lot of things way in the background, that's why some of them succeed as they do :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline VineBranch

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 12:28:59 AM »
I guess tho, you could have each participant post a brief "position paper" about what they believe when they use a certain word- if we could find an appropriate filing system for it- it could lead to some mutual understanding, at least, among those who were really interested in understanding someone else, rather than just expounding their own particular views.

Nowadays, the "successful" churches are keeping eternal torment/torture for the non-believer way in the background.

This could be a way for us to actually do the opposite.  This could be our attempt to hide nothing by being open about what we say when we say it and therefore the discussion could be about the issue not the personalities.
Nothing would be said, as Paul suggested, in a corner.  Those who think it all dross could also see we are not trying to redefine the dross either.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 12:41:13 AM »
But how does one know when someone is NOT telling them something.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 08:15:04 AM »
That's the hard thing about scripture too:  proving something is NOT there.  NO evidence is the proof.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline VineBranch

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 08:49:53 AM »
That's the hard thing about scripture too:  proving something is NOT there.  NO evidence is the proof.

Absence of evidence however, is not evidence of absence

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Could you clarify that
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 10:05:03 AM »
Agreement is found in the spirit, underneath and between the words. Jesus is Head to EACH and EVERY believer- but the agreement is within the holies of holies where the spirit hovers over the "mercy seat"(heart) between the "wings of the cherubim"(spirit) over the "acacia box" (soul). There can be disagreement on superficial elements, and there ARE areas of truth and doctrine we will not FULLY understand in this plane. The understandings we need most are locked up, like the flaming sword at the entrance of the garden of Eden. We are shut out of them until we understand what God is looking for in us.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor; not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
(Rom 12:1-16)
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