Author Topic: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism  (Read 4549 times)

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arcticmonster2003

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Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« on: August 13, 2007, 05:25:22 AM »
Do they say I wonder why this cannot be discussed? Afterall it is supported be scripture though arguments using different scriptures can be made? There are many such discussions trying to understand scripture at apologetic websites and it does certainly make me wonder, and certainly makes me not want to visit the site.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 08:08:51 AM by SeekerSA »

julzabro2

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 03:34:28 AM »
This is the site I was banned from this morning! :mshock: They have a disclaimer that says, in so many words, that Universalist's are very always harsh, demeaning and rude. This disclaimer, in their forum rules, I believe is fairly new and actually even says that they"ll ban someone who even "hints" at Universalism! They say that they feel that Universalism keeps new believers from coming into the Body by teaching that no one goes to hell I believe it even quotes a recent argument/debate between someone there at CARM and someone from HERE at Tentmaker!!! Of course, it only shows Tentmaker's rebuttles...not there own posts.

I was very shocked at the hypocracy of this considering that there were atheists, agnostics etc etc and even so called Christians whose behavior was worse. It was a handful of Christians, myself included, who, apparently started SOUNDING universlaistic....as maybe we are...that got this site in an uproar. However, the antagonizing, condescending judgmentalistic posts, INITIALLY, came from the peanut gallery.

I didn't even know that I was a universalistic Christian until today when I saw that I had been suspended. I know there is a handful of others that will probably also be banned who may very well end up here.

julzabro2

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 04:04:33 AM »
This was one of my posts that they suspended me on the other was merely a response/agreement to someone else's post that, I guess, they thought to be universalism. This was in my inbox and shows what I said that they deemed as "introducing universalism"...?!?! Funny, considering I didn't even know what a universalist was!  :laughing7:



Dear julzabro,

You have received an infraction at CARM.ORG - Christian Discussion Forums.

Reason: universalism introduced to forum
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Simply put....this is about Israel....God's chosen people denying Him and not gathering the flock...even murdering His servants. These are the Pharisees and Sadducees...those stuck in the law. They were those who were invited yet they were made stubborn (they assumed they knew the Law but they denied Grace) in order that those OUTSIDE THE CAMP (Gentiles) those....out in the highways....who were both good and bad....could be gathered. Both good and bad indicates EVERYONE but all whom they found indicates those who, IN FAITH, were near enough to BE found. Remember Israel followed the law in appearance but would not listen/obey His voice....so, in truth, they didn't follow the law.

The ONLY one who is said to be lost is the son of perdition....Satan. And he sneaks in as an angel of light. He IS the one who creeps into the wedding feast without a wedding garment.

HOWEVER, this STILL indicates a possibility of redemption. #1...He's called "friend". #2....He's speechless as one would be who does NOT YET have the Holy Spirit. #3...We are taught that we must ALL become naked (die to sin) before we can be reclothed in Christ. The old man perishes.
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This infraction is worth 10 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

Original Post:
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=1688712

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by flynn 
For those who believe that hell is a man made doctrine, shall we discuss Matthew 22:1-14?


Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Simply put....this is about Israel....God's chosen people denying Him and not gathering the flock...even murdering His servants. These are the Pharisees and Sadducees...those stuck in the law. They were those who were invited yet they were made stubborn (they assumed they knew the Law but they denied Grace) in order that those OUTSIDE THE CAMP (Gentiles) those....out in the highways....who were both good and bad....could be gathered. Both good and bad indicates EVERYONE but all whom they found indicates those who, IN FAITH, were near enough to BE found. Remember Israel followed the law in appearance but would not listen/obey His voice....so, in truth, they didn't follow the law.

The ONLY one who is said to be lost is the son of perdition....Satan. And he sneaks in as an angel of light. He IS the one who creeps into the wedding feast without a wedding garment.

HOWEVER, this STILL indicates a possibility of redemption. #1...He's called "friend". #2....He's speechless as one would be who does NOT YET have the Holy Spirit. #3...We are taught that we must ALL become naked (die to sin) before we can be reclothed in Christ. The old man perishes.

I submit to you that what we are shown, biblically, is a continual process rather than a point A and point B situation. Being bound and put into outer darkness is akin to what we must suffer in the flesh before becoming worthy of the necessary righteousness needed for salvation. In the flesh we ARE ALL (physically and spiritually) seperated from God. When we become naked before Him (strip off the flesh/sin/pride), it means we have fully submitted to His will and, at that point, we are reborn/reclothed. The Pharisees and Saducees are examples of those who refuse to become bare and they were made stubborn (as the Pharoah was) for our sakes. It is due to their carrying about in the Law that those of true faith can be identified. The Gentiles are those who didn't know or were far away from the law....but they will come into Him with faith because they will, not only, hear the law by those stuck in it....yet they will obey His voice!

Or you can look at it this way....we all have to be made like the Jews (stuck in the Law) before we can become like a Gentile (those of faith). We have to learn the law....learn that we are sinners so that we can strip our flesh/die to sin and submit ourselves, in faith, to God. Learning law/sin is Jewish. Submitting to God is Gentile. But both will be changed.

Every knee shall bow. 

All the best,
CARM.ORG - Christian Discussion Forums
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martincisneros

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 04:53:28 AM »
Do they say I wonder why this cannot be discussed? Afterall it is supported be scripture though arguments using different scriptures can be made? There are many such discussions trying to understand scripture at apologetic websites and it does certainly make me wonder, and certainly makes me not want to visit the site.

Some of this is my fault 'cause in my earlier days with UR, I sorta, kinda, maybe picked a fight with Matt Slick.  He never could answer me, but it was obvious that he'd been so frustrated that he genuinely needed some psychiatric treatment for about 90 days afterwards.  I kinda, sorta, maybe, possibly, just might have hit him with more proofs and more Scriptures than ANY OF YOU can find on the whole Tentmaker site.  Let's just say, I've never seen anyone sooo offended and taken aback without dropping dead of a heart attack.  And I sorta, maybe, possibly wasn't very cordial about going after him with both barrells blazing, as if we were at the OK Corral.  I'm sorta the reason there's no longer a UR board at CARM and the reason why there's land mines within 200 miles of their website that are heat seeking in seeking out Universalists.  Gary Amirault was kinda there too, but he didn't see all of my emails.  He got in on the latter part of it with his own touch of the obnoxious.  Gary and I kinda took absolutely no prisoners.  It wasn't pretty.  And we sorta only served to harden his heart against the whole thing.

martincisneros

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 05:09:57 AM »
And I do know that other Universalists have butted heads with Matt Slick before, but I can honestly say that I was cut-throat about it.  He was mad enough to have treated me like Calvin treated Michael Servetus, if there weren't a separation of Church and State.  I've NEVER made anyone that mad before or since.

I cornered him like an animal.

Kinda makes me wonder if a lot of people, when they first start transitioning from ET to UR, if maybe you kinda need to lock 'em in a closet for their first 3 to 5 years until they calm down just a teeny, teeny bit and don't go out to stalk an ETer.

If Matt had had previous medical issues that I didn't know about, I could have honestly hospitalized and/or killed him with the way that I behaved.



Since I brought up Servetus, here's a two webpage book review on a history book that I read on him that reads more like the most engaging historical thriller: http://dir.salon.com/story/books/review/2002/11/12/goldstone/index.html
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 05:23:34 AM by martincisneros »

shibboleth

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 06:46:40 AM »
And I do know that other Universalists have butted heads with Matt Slick before, but I can honestly say that I was cut-throat about it.  He was mad enough to have treated me like Calvin treated Michael Servetus, if there weren't a separation of Church and State.  I've NEVER made anyone that mad before or since.I have been on a few ET forums debating UR and would like to know what some of your arguments were that Matt was so angry about. I'm sure you used scriptures, but what exactly did you say that caused him to be so angry.

I cornered him like an animal. Matt claims he won't allow UR folk on his forum because they have been incredibly rude and called him names. I have read some of the comments he posted from UR people and they were rude. But, if he is contending for the faith, he should expect that type of behaviour from those who disagree with him. But, the athiests, agnostics, doubters, heretics all can be rude too. I wonder if Matt has ever banned them?

Kinda makes me wonder if a lot of people, when they first start transitioning from ET to UR, if maybe you kinda need to lock 'em in a closet for their first 3 to 5 years until they calm down just a teeny, teeny bit and don't go out to stalk an ETer.
I wasn't ready to go on ET forums until recently. I have been UR for over 2 years and didn't feel comfortable about it until recently. Well, I wasn't comfortable at first, but really believed God was leading me in that direction. It becomes easier the more I did it.
 

Since I brought up Servetus, here's a two webpage book review on a history book that I read on him that reads more like the most engaging historical thriller: http://dir.salon.com/story/books/review/2002/11/12/goldstone/index.htmlI was in a Calvinist church years ago and brought up Servetus and was told that times were different then and that Calvin didn't have any authority to have Servetus burned at the stake. I studied it more and found out Calvin did have the authority and Calvins right hand men was taunting poor Michael while he was being slowly roasted. Oh, the doctrine of hell has caused more grief than any other doctrine man has ever come up with. It is truly from the pit of hell. (Pun intended)

martincisneros

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 07:32:01 AM »
The only "name calling" that I ever did was that at one point when it got heated, I did refer to him as "boy," and he might be a few years older than me.  Any name calling beyond that was either him just deciding to take things that way, or he was refering to other conversations and lumping it all together.  I did see him get called quite a few names by a number of Universalists back then.  People were ugly with him.  But I took him through just about all 1189 chapters of the Bible - just about.  I don't have my notes from back then.  A friend of mine had borrowed 'em and kinda got killed by a drunk driver before he could return 'em.  But I wasn't going to embrace UR if there was one Bible verse that I couldn't account for, in some way.

Offline studier

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 08:28:08 AM »
Do they say I wonder why this cannot be discussed? Afterall it is supported be scripture though arguments using different scriptures can be made? There are many such discussions trying to understand scripture at apologetic websites and it does certainly make me wonder, and certainly makes me not want to visit the site.

Some of this is my fault 'cause in my earlier days with UR, I sorta, kinda, maybe picked a fight with Matt Slick.  He never could answer me, but it was obvious that he'd been so frustrated that he genuinely needed some psychiatric treatment for about 90 days afterwards.  I kinda, sorta, maybe, possibly, just might have hit him with more proofs and more Scriptures than ANY OF YOU can find on the whole Tentmaker site.  Let's just say, I've never seen anyone sooo offended and taken aback without dropping dead of a heart attack.  And I sorta, maybe, possibly wasn't very cordial about going after him with both barrells blazing, as if we were at the OK Corral.  I'm sorta the reason there's no longer a UR board at CARM and the reason why there's land mines within 200 miles of their website that are heat seeking in seeking out Universalists.  Gary Amirault was kinda there too, but he didn't see all of my emails.  He got in on the latter part of it with his own touch of the obnoxious.  Gary and I kinda took absolutely no prisoners.  It wasn't pretty.  And we sorta only served to harden his heart against the whole thing.

I was familiar with Matt Slick, and I have seen many of the things he was called. I was asked at one time to be part of his apologetics team, even though he knew I wasn't Calvinist. The behavior of Christian Universalists was the reason I had a hard time accepting that it might be true. It was the biggest obsticle. I saw how, regardless of how 'unemotoinal' Matt's replies were, he was being accused of everything from devil worship to even having his family threatened with death by universalists. Today, those who wanted the message of Reconciliation to be preached, closed their own doors. They have nobody to blame for the rejection of the message but themselves because of their evil behavior. I gotta be honest, even as a Christian Universalist, I was threatened with death threats because I disagreed with a teacher of universalism. I have never been treated so badly by anyone but those who claim to be Christian Universalism.


1 Timothy 4:15
Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Titus 2:6-8
Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

1 Peter 3:15-17   
In your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 08:33:55 AM by Craig »

Offline studier

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2007, 08:36:25 AM »
Quote
Kinda makes me wonder if a lot of people, when they first start transitioning from ET to UR, if maybe you kinda need to lock 'em in a closet for their first 3 to 5 years until they calm down just a teeny, teeny bit and don't go out to stalk an ETer.

Pay attention to this:

1 Timothy 3:6-7
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.






martincisneros

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2007, 08:49:22 AM »
So Craig,

You've experienced some of that "friendly fire" too from Universalists?!

If I hadn't just about seen a burning bush, I wouldn't even be on this board.  It wasn't quite as cordial 4 or 5 years ago  :sigh:

Back then, you could go and get your tail kicked on Matt's boards by BOTH those opposed to UR and those who didn't like that you were UR & Charismatic, or UR & whatever else.  And then we'd come back here and give each other additional beatings.

Finally, the Lord just told me "leave and don't come back until I say you can." And about the time that I left, about 5 years ago, a bunch of the other jokers started leaving the boards too.  I'd periodically peak in here because someone would inevitably PM me about a thread, either on eternal life for animals or some other thread they figured I'd be interested in and/or were hoping I'd jump back in on.

I still can't get Charles Slagle back over here, though I'll email him an occaisional thread, once in a blue moon.  In fairness to him, knowing a bunch of what he's got going on, it's about 90% busy-ness, but the rest of it is just honestly a bunch of combat fatigue and he's just sick of all that can go wrong on a discussion board.

The Lord's been cleaning up a whole lotta mess over the last 3 years, among Universalists, that those who are just now starting to come into the message really have no way of appreciating the fact that UR folks would boobie-trap (or however ya spell it) ET folks as well as one another back in the day!

Offline studier

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2007, 08:59:59 AM »
Now all that is needed, is to rebuke the sarcasm out of people. Where in the world, did anyone think sarcasm comes from the spirit.

 :msealed:

martincisneros

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2007, 09:20:51 AM »
Hi Craig,

As far as the sarcasm in UR circles, that's a bit of a generational curse that came into UR with some of the 19th century authors.  Biting wit was a cornerstone of Hosea Ballou's ministry.  And I don't want to accuse an innocent man, but I'm thinking Caleb Rich may have done the same thing a few years earlier.  But Hosea Ballou, Thomas Whittemore, and a few others gave the impression that that was how you reasoned with an ETer, or in their hopelessness of ever reaching an ETer, that's how they coped, was by having a really derogatory mouth towards ETers in their periodicals.

One of the things that I didn't previously mention, was when the Lord told me to leave the boards a few years ago, that's what He had me start exercising faith in the Word against, because Christ has redeemed us from the curse.  When I started being on the proactive in believing against this crap because it wasn't in line with the Spirit of the Gospel, though I took a teeny bit of heat from it with what I was writing on my website and in a few emails to some of the ring leaders of the "gift of head butting," I still noticed a gradual decline in that nonsense.  It's almost getting to where UR folks are starting to be known for their peace and love instead of the quickest way into a fight with the mainstream Church.  We're getting there, though there's still a few professional gunmen in UR circles that are proud of their arrogance and froward mouth, because after all, they're not under the law any more.

Offline studier

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2007, 09:25:45 AM »
Quote
As far as the sarcasm in UR circles, that's a bit of a generational curse that came into UR with some of the 19th century authors.  Biting wit was a cornerstone of Hosea Ballou's ministry.  And I don't want to accuse an innocent man, but I'm thinking Caleb Rich may have done the same thing a few years earlier.  But Hosea Ballou, Thomas Whittemore, and a few others gave the impression that that was how you reasoned with an ETer, or in their hopelessness of ever reaching an ETer, that's how they coped, was by having a really derogatory mouth towards ETers in their periodicals.

And how well did that work out? Like the Hebrews going to the wilderness, God had them march for 40 years until those who remember would die off, never entering.

Quote
One of the things that I didn't previously mention, was when the Lord told me to leave the boards a few years ago, that's what He had me start exercising faith in the Word against, because Christ has redeemed us from the curse.  When I started being on the proactive in believing against this crap because it wasn't in line with the Spirit of the Gospel, though I took a teeny bit of heat from it with what I was writing on my website and in a few emails to some of the ring leaders of the "gift of head butting," I still noticed a gradual decline in that nonsense.  It's almost getting to where UR folks are starting to be known for their peace and love instead of the quickest way into a fight with the mainstream Church.

Hopefully

Quote
We're getting there, though there's still a few professional gunmen in UR circles that are proud of their arrogance and froward mouth, because after all, they're not under the law any more.

Don't know where they got that idea. How do we know they are under the law? Because death follows them.

1 Timothy 1:8-10
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

They are still under the law when they behave out of the flesh. The only time you are not under the Law is when you live by the Spirit, and produce fruits of the spirit.

martincisneros

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2007, 09:33:10 AM »
Quote
We're getting there, though there's still a few professional gunmen in UR circles that are proud of their arrogance and froward mouth, because after all, they're not under the law any more.

Don't know where they got that idea. How do we know they are under the law? Because death follows them.

1 Timothy 1:8-10
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers"and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

They are still under the law when they behave out of the flesh. The only time you are not under the Law is when you live by the Spirit, and produce fruits of the spirit.


Thank you!  It would have taken me 10,000 words to have said that, and too many people would have lost the train of [Gospel] thought and been all "well, that's your interpretation.  Not all of us have a Word of Faith background!  grrr..."  I'm getting sloppy on typos.  I'm going to edit my previous post a teeny bit and head to bed.

martincisneros

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2007, 09:44:41 AM »
Craig,

Isn't there a verse in James about where there's strife, there's confusion and every evil work?  I don't know if you've read very deeply some UR history, but that's what killed the UR movement in this country.  That spirit of strife got in and choked the Word and it became unfruitful.  I've read history books that have claimed that at one time the Christian Universalist Church, or whatever the name of the denomination was, that at one time it was the 6th largest denomination in the country.  Some books have claimed we were much larger, but saying we were the 6th largest seems to be a conservative figure.

And now, we're nearly as underground as the Church in China.

That's the fruit of arguments with ETers.  I believe with all of my heart that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the turn of the 20th century [at Azusa Street] was supposed to be on UR folks, but so much junk had gotten in through strife and envy and unbelief, that God had to turn to the Arminians with the sound of a rushing mighty wind, tongues of fire, etc., etc.

Offline studier

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2007, 09:58:34 AM »
Quote
Craig,

Isn't there a verse in James about where there's strife, there's confusion and every evil work?  I don't know if you've read very deeply some UR history, but that's what killed the UR movement in this country.  That spirit of strife got in and choked the Word and it became unfruitful.  I've read history books that have claimed that at one time the Christian Universalist Church, or whatever the name of the denomination was, that at one time it was the 6th largest denomination in the country.  Some books have claimed we were much larger, but saying we were the 6th largest seems to be a conservative figure.

I know what killed the Christian Universalist Denomination. I know what kills the Gospel even today. Just ask any person who is not a Christian Universalist, and ask them why they don't believe it. They will say, "I wish I could believe it, but I have seen those who believe it." Pretty poor witness and that is why you don't see much empathy coming from me towards anyone who complains that they were kicked out of a ET Forum, or any other complaint about how they were abused by the ET church they were in and so forth.

Some how, they feel it was justifiable to taken an eye for an eye. The ET churches abused and used them, so why don't we do the same to them? The pastor treated me like crap, so why don't I treat him like crap. They act out of ignorance, so why don't I call them stupid. They believe God failed, so why don't I call them loveless, and use sacrasm to prove this point. Who would want to be associated with that kind of people who, being victims, became abusers. Still living under the law of sin and death, never free regardless of their doctrine of freedom. No wonder they were kicked out and banned.

As I said, not all are being kicked out and banned for this, but I know the main reason innocent people who just mention Jesus saved all, are being punished because Universalists have put a sour taste in the mouth of those forums previously and some innocent soul is being treated badly because that memory is fresh of the abuse...

Quote
And now, we're nearly as underground as the Church in China.

I will be blunt. Living in a land of freedom, we are our worst enemy.

Quote
That's the fruit of arguments with ETers.  I believe with all of my heart that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the turn of the 20th century [at Azusa Street] was supposed to be on UR folks, but so much junk had gotten in through strife and envy and unbelief, that God had to turn to the Arminians with the sound of a rushing mighty wind, tongues of fire, etc., etc.

Yep. Though, I didn't see many 'more' people come to Christ out of that 'outpouring' rather just a shifting of people from church to church, but good things do come to those who believe, regardless if they believe it was for all or not.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 10:03:08 AM by Craig »

martincisneros

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2007, 10:09:18 AM »
I'll take this a step further.  I've gotten this from both Unitarian scholars and from someone who was a student at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, that the strife over UR had become so horrendous that it's listed as one of the causes of the Civil War in the United States.  The South didn't want to have anything to do with it!

Though the North supposedly won the war, to a large degree it looks like the South won the spiritual part of the war.

Right after that, Universalists were so genuinely sick in their spirits (i.e. Book of Proverbs about a broken spirit drying the bones.), that that's when everybody got all stuck on stupid about it being against a genuine expression of Christian faith, Christian Universalism, and a Spirit-filled life to have seminaries for the training of Christian Universalists for ministry; that's when they started tearing down the Christian Universalist publishing houses; saying stupid stuff against having any kind of recognizeable presence in the community through a loosely associated organization/denomination, etc., etc., etc.  And then finally, meeting together for a genuinely CHRISTIAN Universalist meeting became anathema.  So, finally the Unitarians came in and took over, in 1961 (though it unofficially began earlier with the Humiliati and other groups), what was left of the shreds of what was once the beginnings of all that many of the early Church Fathers had prayed for, that these truths would be alive and active and sharper than any two edged sword in a land that wouldn't know the degree of persecution and affliction that they'd known in the Roman Empire.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 10:13:01 AM by martincisneros »

Offline studier

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2007, 10:18:41 AM »
Yep, and those who think you can make change at the end of threats, puzzle me. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I can only speak from experience, there is a stigma that needs to be changed, and on that we both agree.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 10:51:06 AM by Craig »

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2007, 12:32:05 PM »
Martin and Craig, I really enjoyed reading this discussion and agree with what you are saying. There was a time when I withdrew from all other christian responsibilities to just study Universal Salvation. And even there might have been the time for this I agree with you Martin that maybe one should keep quiet about it for a few years until the wounds that we received under the everlasting torment/death paradigm are healed to such a degree that we can respond to our opponents in love.
When I was in England last year to meet with Charles & Paula Slagle, I was amazed at Charlies patience with the people and their questions, which were not always as nicley presented as one would wish for. Some folks also just were quite hostile on the radio show Charlie and Ravi Holy were speaking at.
For some of us it was such a emotional experience to discover the truth about hell etc. that we tend to forget that we shouldn't neglect other precious things of our faith. That's what the Holy Spirit seems to teach me latley.
I am so glad that I first encounterd this message in Charlies writings with a strong emphasis on the Fatherheart of God, which I believe is the core of the Gospel and also supposed to be the message of my own life, just by the way, cause he also gave the best advice I ever read how to deal with fellowbelievers who can't see the full Gospel yet. From time to time I read it again to remind myself that I can't change anyones theology, but that this is the Holy Spirit's job alone. Here's a copy of that word of advice again:

May I share a word of advice? This word especially applies if you have experienced deep wounding through spiritual abuse. Ask the Lord to grant you grace to:
+ refrain from debating about this full gospel or being overly anxious to help others to "see" it. Give the Holy Spirit room to work!
+ forgive people who in the past conveyed the gospel inadequately to you"or perhaps even spiritually abused you. Instead, thank the Lord that they gave what they had, and ask Him to shower His healing and blessing upon them.
+ not make understanding Christ's total victory a requirement for fellowshipping with your Christian brothers and sisters"whatever you do!
+ not make this full gospel "your subject" conversationally more than enjoying the Lord Himself and bringing His healing life to others. People who think a good deal, who have been deeply wounded, can fall into that snare while the devil throws a party! JESUS CHRIST MUST REMAIN THE FOCUS. (The early Pentecostals had to learn the same lesson about sharing their newfound freedom in the Holy Spirit!)
+ refuse to start a new denomination or "non''-denomination; the Lord knows there are too many already!
+ be led of the Holy Spirit in all situations where the Lord Himself receives honor and"by His power"lives are transformed and healed. Even if it means on occasions He may lead you to minister truths that seem to reveal little or nothing of Christ's total victory.
+ become a brighter light that attracts others to Christ Himself"and not just words and concepts about Him.
+ not be hurt if some Christians misjudge you. Trust the Lord to do business. He will! Hasn't He always? Remember, some who misunderstand you today may be beside you proclaiming Christ to a needy world tomorrow!
+ be at liberty not to go to great lengths to hype or to hide your understanding of the gospel. Just enjoy constant fellowship with the Lord and trust His light to shine through you.
+ remember that, by God's astonishing grace, many Christians who do not completely share your understanding of Scripture"nevertheless"know God's heart, perhaps better than you do! So avail yourself of every opportunity to be blessed by your other praying, Christ-honoring brothers and sisters. You need them and they need you!

JESUS IS LORD!

 


In the end it doesn't help us anything if we can quote the scriptures about our Heavenly Father's plan for the ages, but misrepresent His Heart.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 12:37:26 PM by Floyd »
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline 97531

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2007, 01:03:25 PM »
Hey Floyd

 :goodpost:

Quote
In the end it doesn't help us anything if we can quote the scriptures about our Heavenly Father's plan for the ages, but misrepresent His Heart.

 :thumbsup:

Good advice IMO.  Once we are liberated from a twisted gospel it is just like the re-birth experience and back then, didn't we want to win the wold for the Lord.  Oh how He lets us be foolish just like Paul was till we meekly come back with our tail between our legs and say sorry Lord.  :sorry:  Luckily He is forgiving.

I just praise God that from an early time in my conversion, the Holy Spirit had the primary influence in my life.  Knew or understood little in those days but I prayed for wisdom to discern truth from lies.

In ET not all is wrong, God still works there in spite of their doctrines and likewise in spite of us He works here too.  The main thing is if we approach as Craig said with sound debate without insults even when they are measured out in truck-loads, seed is planted and if the lurker gets the inclination to research further, that is enough.  You will seldom win a debate with these guys as they are skilled in twisting your presentations and/or ignoring them.  There times to do battle and times to withdraw.  It is just amazing that such offence is taken that all can be saved, weird.

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2007, 02:45:27 PM »
Yeah....I know I let their insults and rude behavior get to me and I do regret that. You always start off being polite and civil and even ignoring their insults, name calling and condescention, but I guess everyone is human. I guess when you're debating an opponent that you KNOW is turning people away from God....you can get VERY angry.

However, getting mad doesn't demonstrate love which is why Christians have a bad name.

As much as I should have ignored their judgmentalism, I must say that UR's are NOT the only one's who need work on this. Truly, Christians have some SERIOUS debating problems also. Either way love is what's missing.

I guess being a Christian and, apparently, sounding like a UR (which I am now considering)....makes me doubley guilty!
I'm a Hatfield AND a McCoy  :laughing7:

Personally and honestly, I would like to see a place that people could debate each other with verocity YET with respect AND not have to worry about what religion they might, unknowingly, sound like!!!


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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2007, 03:04:00 PM »
There is one board Theology Online, a huge forum and although you do not get kicked off for UR beliefs, once they, have identified you as such, they descend on your posts like vultures.

Not for the meek, and you need to have all your facts straight.  All in all not too bad as they have the whole mix there.  Once you go a little in the flesh, you start getting negative reps.  Over 7000 members and daily active > 70.

Best just to lurk for a long while.  Open Theism/Arminianism seems to be the order of those in charge there.  They make no apologies for this so beware.

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2007, 03:17:18 PM »
hmmmmm....sounds interesting. I will check that out. Thanks for the info!

Tree

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Re: Comments Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2007, 04:40:06 AM »
wow, this is refreshing...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 02:09:05 PM by Tree »