Author Topic: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved  (Read 1124 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« on: January 27, 2010, 10:04:21 PM »
Considering that in traditional "Christian" Theology, very few people would be saved, while the rest went to hell. 
First off, I was wondering, would heaven be so great if we had to be in constant awareness of our friends and family being tortured in hell forever?

Secondly, the people who always declare themselves to be one of the few saved are always the most arrogant, rude and unloving.  These are people who are both Fundamentalist Catholic and Protestants. 
Fundamentalist Catholics: Declare only a small proportion of Humanity achieving salvation, and they happen to be one of the few.  They are usually the type who go about insulting other religions, and then go about calling mainstream catholics "Cafeteria Catholics."  These are the people who think they are better, because they excepted everything the pope and priests say, prayed the most rosaries, novenas, attended the most masses, and fasted or suffered the most.  Yet, these are the people who usually go about criticising others, acting all holier than thou, and telling others they are going to hell.
Fundamentalist Protestants: Same thing, declare that they are one of the few saved.  However, they declare that the only way to be saved is to have that "Born again" experience.  But, somehow, all they seem to care about is rigid exceptance of their doctrine.  Yet, these are the people who show hate towards gays, people of other religions, and anyone who study science that they dont agree with. 

Does it really seem like paradise where only the self righteous holier than thou's dwell, while all the loving people have to go to hell?  Personally, hell would sound a lot nicer than heaven if that was the case. 

Offline Taffy

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2010, 10:31:37 PM »
Hi UC :icon_flower:

Had a convo the other day with one who believed That Folk[ The baddies ] were sent to this pit called the Lake of Fire..he insisted thats where they go.. he kept mentioning Hell , even thou it was mentioned that HELL gets cast into SO CALLED HELL, UNTIL he was  led to look up the LOF after explaining sheol, hades, gehenna and Tartarus and to HIS DISMAY after all these yrs he realised this lake wasnt rendered as HELL... Praise the LORD. :icon_flower:

At first we seem to be so led by the voice OF MEN.. seems for almost all, thats the way..but its heartening to understand , they wont be in that place FOREVER..  :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 11:56:57 PM »

The implication in scripture is that all our tears would be wiped away, so (and take no offense please) I believe the line of reasoning concerning how heaven would be to us now is an emotional appeal.

For if eternal hell is real, then what would concern us if the father wipes away our tears?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 01:58:10 AM »
Hi UC :icon_flower:

Had a convo the other day with one who believed That Folk[ The baddies ] were sent to this pit called the Lake of Fire..he insisted thats where they go.. he kept mentioning Hell , even thou it was mentioned that HELL gets cast into SO CALLED HELL, UNTIL he was  led to look up the LOF after explaining sheol, hades, gehenna and Tartarus and to HIS DISMAY after all these yrs he realised this lake wasnt rendered as HELL... Praise the LORD. :icon_flower:

At first we seem to be so led by the voice OF MEN.. seems for almost all, thats the way..but its heartening to understand , they wont be in that place FOREVER..  :icon_flower:

 :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 09:27:27 AM »
Considering that in traditional "Christian" Theology, very few people would be saved, while the rest went to hell. 
First off, I was wondering, would heaven be so great if we had to be in constant awareness of our friends and family being tortured in hell forever?
I've read an article by a Calvinist who claims he would laugh if his mother is kicked into hell because she deserves it.
Or that God simply makes the saved forget all the none saved. That idea has major problems imo.

Quote
Secondly, the people who always declare themselves to be one of the few saved are always the most arrogant, rude and unloving.  These are people who are both Fundamentalist Catholic and Protestants.
They are the ones with the beam in their eye.


Quote
Does it really seem like paradise where only the self righteous holier than thou's dwell, while all the loving people have to go to hell?  Personally, hell would sound a lot nicer than heaven if that was the case.
The Biblical hell yes. The manmade hell no. (what can be worse than that...)

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 06:55:18 PM »
2Co 4:1-10 
   Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,  whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.   For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake.  For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair:  persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed—   always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.

Col 1:21-23 
   And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—  if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


Gal 1:3-9 
     Grace to you, and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father,  to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen.
    I wonder that ye are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news;  that is not another, except there be certain who are troubling you, and wishing to pervert the good news of the Christ; but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you--anathema let him be! as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive--anathema let him be!





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Offline Zero7

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 08:54:16 PM »
I asked these same questions for over 30 years at Assembly of God churches to pastors/leaders and was never satisified with their answers. I kept asking how can the saints and God be happy knowing the majority of creation is in a boiling lava pit for all of eternity.

The answers varied...God will remove the memory of them from us.....God is responsible for our happiness so don't dwell on it....they had the same choices you had but they refused salvation so God has to enforce His perfect justice...blah...blah...blah..

Thinking that I could easily fall from grace due to my own luke warmness, I was never 100% sure of my own salvation.

This topic was preached about one Sunday at church and the pastor asked for a showing of hands (to about 300 people or so) of all people who were not 100% sure they were going to heaven.

Well, about 15 of us raised our hands and we were ushered off into a room where 'counsolers' consoled us.
While they were quacking away, I'd say to the person next to me - "how can we be sure? If only a few make it, what gives me the gall to think I'm better than they are?".

Well, I left that day confused as ever, it didnt help.

Thank God this bondage was removed once and for all and tentmaker had a big part in that as well.

And by the way, I still say to this day, in fact I AM CONVINCED of it, the church will remain under the bondage of Satan until the teaching of ET is disposed of once and for all.

This is why the accuser of the brethren has legal ground to stand on in front of God, because God's own children believe He is capable of torturing for all of eternity.

I believe either the Lord Himself will roar forth from out of Zion to heal the church of this teaching  or the true overcomers will perform signs and wonders (to Christians) and they will teach that ET is from the devil with miracles to back it up. I truly believe this.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 10:18:30 PM »
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer - German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Would it be a very heavenly paradise if only a few are saved
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 08:31:44 AM »
   In the last days, the mountain of the Lord will rise up above all the other mountains, and the word of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. I believe the Lord WILL roar forth from Zion and restore this foundation, the foundation of eternal judgement, to the body of Christ- or at least to a remnant bride clothed in the sun and bearing a manchild who will wage war on the dragon.

Heb 6:1-3  Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits.

The terminology-"eternal judgment" is a bit deceiving because of what we were taught it means. Most hear the words and think, eternal condemnation. The doctrine of eternal judgment is the doctrine of "WHY". Why God has done all He has done. His eternal reasons, His eternal counsels, His eternal wisdom.

Sort of like the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is the "WHEN".
Sort of like the doctrines of repentance from dead works and faith towards God are the "WHAT"
and the doctrines of baptisms and laying on of hands are the "HOW"

 A framework for the doctrine of eternal judgment is contained in Colossians 1-16-20, Ephesians 1:4-11, Romans 11:32-36 and 1Corinthians 15:21-28, just for a bare minimum, there are many more(like Ro 8:18-21;Jn 12:27; 1Tim 2:3,4 and 1John 2:1,2)-but these verses are all disregarded, untaught, or simply denied by twisting the word in the temples made with hands, the "churches" of men.

It is impossible to go on to maturity unless the full foundation is laid. "If the foundations be destroyed what shall the righteous do" (Ps 11)

Isa 58:12  "Those from among you will rebuild the ancient ruins; You will raise up the age-old foundations; And you will be called the repairer of the breach, The restorer of the streets in which to dwell.  :dsunny:

When he says, "not laying again" he presumes the foundation has been laid. When he says, if God permits, the prerequisite for this permission is that the elementary teaching about Christ, which includes these foundations, is established. Therefore God will not permit, as Zero7 so aptly pointed out.

Heb 5:12-14  For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.  For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.  But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Certainly the fact that God will have all men to be saved is an elementary principle, because the Logos is the expression of the divine nature- a Saviour. For Jesus to die for a few who will rejoice in the judgment of the vast majority is a TREMENDOUS MISREPRESENTAION of the heart of the Father.

1Co 2:12-15  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

The Spirit blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't kno where it came from or where it is going, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. We all have such a long way to go- don't we?

1Co 3:1-4  And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?


« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 08:49:50 AM by eaglesway »
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