Author Topic: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)  (Read 1348 times)

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Tim B

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Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« on: July 14, 2009, 03:12:58 AM »
Okay, so I've wondering about this for a while, and it's been a bit confusing.

Sooo, here's Romans 5:9

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Romans 5:9 (Young's Literal Translation)

 9much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

Basically, in general, most Christians assume that being saved through Jesus will save us from the wrath of God which will damn people for all eternity into the fires of Hell. Obviously URists don't believe this idea behind wrath as being such, and as far as I can tell, and from what I've read about God's judgements, God uses his wrath (or compassion) to bring about righteousness.

Such as here:

Jeremiah 30:23-26 (Amplified Bible)

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23Behold, the tempest of the Lord has gone forth with wrath, a sweeping and gathering tempest; it shall whirl and burst upon the heads of the wicked.

    24The fierce anger and indignation of the Lord shall not turn back until He has executed and accomplished the thoughts and intents of His mind and heart. In the latter days you shall understand this.

Zephaniah 3:8-9 (Amplified Bible)

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8Therefore [earnestly] wait for Me, says the Lord, [waiting] for the day when I rise up to the attack [as a witness, accuser, or judge, and a testimony]. For My decision and determination and right it is to gather the nations together, to assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them My indignation, even all [the heat of] My fierce anger; for [in that day] all the earth shall be consumed with the fire of My zeal and jealousy.

    9For then [changing their impure language] I will give to the people a clear and pure speech from pure lips, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one unanimous consent and one united shoulder [bearing the yoke of the Lord].

So, if God's wrath does this for those that do not believe, where does Jesus sacrifice come in? Romans 5:9 suggests it was to save us from God's wrath, but God's wrath purifies, so why do we need to avoid it? Does Christ's sacrifice somehow tie into God's wrath which purifies?

Or, to be more clear, my question is: how does Christ's sacrifice tie in with the non-believers being purified through God's wrath?

This has been bothering me lately, and any help would be awesome.  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 05:51:49 AM by Tim B »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 04:13:48 AM »
We shall come away like the 3 that came forth from the fire and did not even smell of smoke

Offline Seth

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 09:38:15 PM »
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Or, to be more clear, my question is: how does Christ's sacrifice tie in with the non-believers being purified through God's wrath?

This has been bothering me lately, and any help would be awesome. 

God's wrath comes about in various ways. But look at this verse that comes directly before chapter 5

Rom 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.


How can we be saved from wrath? By being delivered from the Law. Check Romans 7, at the VERY beginning. We are delivered from the law when Christ puts to death our body of sin. When we die with Christ, we walk in newness of life and need not be placed under the law where wrath abides.

This goes along with reconciliation: when Christ dies to remove "the middle partition" which is the Law keeping man and God separate, and replaces it with himself: becoming the mediator between God and man. THEN, rather than toiling under the law, we are placed under GRACE. And it is grace that chastises us to live godly lives. Not sure if I consider that to be wrath, but chastisement unto "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" within us.





Tim B

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 10:42:56 PM »
We shall come away like the 3 that came forth from the fire and did not even smell of smoke

Thanks Beloved Servant! ^_^

Quote
Or, to be more clear, my question is: how does Christ's sacrifice tie in with the non-believers being purified through God's wrath?

This has been bothering me lately, and any help would be awesome. 

God's wrath comes about in various ways. But look at this verse that comes directly before chapter 5

Rom 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.


How can we be saved from wrath? By being delivered from the Law. Check Romans 7, at the VERY beginning. We are delivered from the law when Christ puts to death our body of sin. When we die with Christ, we walk in newness of life and need not be placed under the law where wrath abides.

This goes along with reconciliation: when Christ dies to remove "the middle partition" which is the Law keeping man and God separate, and replaces it with himself: becoming the mediator between God and man. THEN, rather than toiling under the law, we are placed under GRACE. And it is grace that chastises us to live godly lives. Not sure if I consider that to be wrath, but chastisement unto "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" within us.

Thanks Seth! :)

So do non-believers fall under this grace too (maybe that's exactly what you were saying xD)?

It seems that the law is not even counted against non-believers according to Romans 7 and 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, because they too have died in Christ, and thus the law is not counted against them:


Romans 7 (Young's Literal Translation)

 1Are ye ignorant, brethren -- for to those knowing law I speak -- that the law hath lordship over the man as long as he liveth?

 2for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband;



2 Corinthians, chapter 5:

Chapter 5
1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens.
2 For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven,
3 if so be that, being dressed also, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we also, who are in the tabernacle, are groaning, being burdened, on which we are not wanting to be stripped, but to be dressed, that the mortal may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He Who produces us for this same longing is God, Who is also giving us the earnest of the spirit.
6 Being, then, courageous always, and aware that, being at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord
7 (for by faith are we walking, not by perception),
8 yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we are ambitious also, whether at home or away from home, to be well pleasing to Him.
10 For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad.
11 Being aware, then, of the fear of the Lord, we are persuading men, yet we are manifest to God. Now I am expecting to be manifest in your consciences also.
12 Not again are we commending ourselves to you, but are giving an incentive to you by boasting over you, that you may have it for those who are boasting in personal appearance and not in heart.
13 For, whether we were beside ourselves, it is to God, whether we are sane, it is to you.
14 For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died.
15 And He died for the sake of all that those who are living should by no means still be living to themselves, but to the One dying and being roused for their sakes.

16 So that we, from now on, are acquainted with no one according to flesh. Yet even if we have known Christ according to flesh, nevertheless now we know Him so no longer.
17 So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!
18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.
20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!"
21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.


Does this seem like an accurate conclusion? I don't want to jump the gun!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:50:48 PM by Tim B »

Offline Seth

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2009, 02:17:56 AM »
1 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then (ara - the implication being, no doubt, truly) were all dead:


"Ara" is like an implication. In other words, that Jesus died for all IMPLIES, or SHOWS that everyone WAS DEAD. And he died so that that they could stop being dead, so that those who are given life, by accessing grace through faith can live. That's salvation.


Offline Seth

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 02:34:43 AM »
It's like saying,  "If I turned on all the lights, then all the lights were off."

Tim B

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 05:29:15 AM »
1 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then (ara - the implication being, no doubt, truly) were all dead:


"Ara" is like an implication. In other words, that Jesus died for all IMPLIES, or SHOWS that everyone WAS DEAD. And he died so that that they could stop being dead, so that those who are given life, by accessing grace through faith can live. That's salvation.

So does God's wrath then, such as in the Lake of Fire, or after a non-believer dies, correct a person until they turn to Christ to follow Him? I mean, I don't know I can assume that God's wrath saves, but rather God uses his wrath to bring the non-believer to Christ to be given grace to be purified unto righteousness.

Offline Seth

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 07:55:58 PM »
1 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then (ara - the implication being, no doubt, truly) were all dead:


"Ara" is like an implication. In other words, that Jesus died for all IMPLIES, or SHOWS that everyone WAS DEAD. And he died so that that they could stop being dead, so that those who are given life, by accessing grace through faith can live. That's salvation.

So does God's wrath then, such as in the Lake of Fire, or after a non-believer dies, correct a person until they turn to Christ to follow Him? I mean, I don't know I can assume that God's wrath saves, but rather God uses his wrath to bring the non-believer to Christ to be given grace to be purified unto righteousness.


Well we know that "God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud." So it seems that his grace is distinguishable from his resistance. Perhaps his resistance (wrath if you like) is useful to BRING the proud DOWN to humility so that they will be able to repent and receive the grace that purifies their hearts. Just some thoughts.



Offline legoman

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2009, 07:03:33 PM »
Romans 2 is relevant here as well:

Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.

People equate "wrath" with "eternal hell", but verse 6 above tells us what God's wrath is.  Its given according to what that person has done - its trouble and distress.

Read all of Romans 2.

Offline sheila

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Re: Christ and Judgement/Wrath (Question)
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 07:27:18 PM »


   first He seperates us from the "man of sin" in us...

   the LOF IS THE WRATH/ SECOUND DEATH of the MAN OF SIN

   of which there is no resurrection...

    and this 'wrath" is a work of cleansing grace and mercy

   on HIS part in behalf of us.

   Notice they say' we prophesied,caST OUT DEMONS 'ETC

  HOWEVER THE WORKER OF INIQUITY STILL DWELT IN THEIR

 FLESH,eVEN THOUGH IT IS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT

 THAT IS IN THEM THAT  THESE THINGS ARE DONE....

   THE total removal of such things is a blessing...SO

  THAT WE MAY INHERIT WHAT IS PREPARED FOR US..

  FOR YOU KNOW THAT INIQUITY CAN NOT DWELL IN THAT

  kingdom of heaven nor enter into that Holy city.