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Offline Tim B

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Is That REALLY Loving??
« on: July 26, 2009, 11:42:02 PM »
For Calvinists: is it REALLY loving if an all powerful being brings creatures into existence and only intends to save a few of them?

For Arminians: is it REALLY loving if an all knowing being brings creatures into existence knowing that most will reject him and be lost forever?

Christians in general: is it REALLY loving if you tell people to love YOU - OR ELSE?!? And, on another thought, is it even possible to truly love a person who threatens you in such a way?

I'm beginning to realize, I think, that any such view of a being is not truly loving.
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1 Timothy 4:9-10:

 9stedfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy;

 10for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

Proverbs 10:12:

Hatred stirs up dissension,
    but LOVE covers over ALL wrongs.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Is That REALLY Loving??
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 11:46:07 PM »
No.
No.
No. and No.

 :happygrin:





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"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is That REALLY Loving??
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 12:57:50 AM »
I agree...none of that is loving by any standard. I think the problem is though, is that most other Christians blame ANY thing they dont understand as just that "Gods ways are higher than ours". So anything that violates every sense of logic and morality to them is simply trumped on that...I know because I used to do that.

While I can agree with that in essence, His ways are higher, I think if His ways are so much higher than ours that they arent even on the same plain of morality...then as humans we cant even base any morals around God. Because any perception of perfect love or justice (that God hardwired in our being) we can have, is totally different from Gods ideas of them. In which case, we would all just be screwed anyway.

really absurd if you think about it. and it also makes "let us make man in our likeness and our image" completely meaningless
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Offline Tim B

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Re: Is That REALLY Loving??
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 03:46:05 AM »
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on July 27, 2009, 12:57:50 AM
I agree...none of that is loving by any standard. I think the problem is though, is that most other Christians blame ANY thing they dont understand as just that "Gods ways are higher than ours". So anything that violates every sense of logic and morality to them is simply trumped on that...I know because I used to do that.

While I can agree with that in essence, His ways are higher, I think if His ways are so much higher than ours that they arent even on the same plain of morality...then as humans we cant even base any morals around God. Because any perception of perfect love or justice (that God hardwired in our being) we can have, is totally different from Gods ideas of them. In which case, we would all just be screwed anyway.

really absurd if you think about it. and it also makes "let us make man in our likeness and our image" completely meaningless

It's almost like the extreme sceptic who says, "You can't positively know anything."
To refute them, all you must do is ask, "Then how do you positively KNOW you can't KNOW anything?"

If our morals cannot be trusted because God's ways are higher than ours, so obviously is his knowledge infinitely higher than ours, and it might be argued that we cannot even trust that our "knowledge" - that says his ways are higher than our ways - is even a knowledgeable statement! At least, I hope that makes sense.  :bigGrin:

Whether my example follows or not, you definitely made an excellent point, NW!  :thumbsup:
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1 Timothy 4:9-10:

 9stedfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy;

 10for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

Proverbs 10:12:

Hatred stirs up dissension,
    but LOVE covers over ALL wrongs.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is That REALLY Loving??
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 05:53:19 PM »
God is a mystery
1 Corinthians 2:7    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

That's hidden wisdom. :HeartThrob:
1 Corinthians 2:7   But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

You are a URatic so don't speak about things you don't know!

Nope
2 Corinthians 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That's basicly the answers you will get...
Build a doctrine with lots of fantasy, twisting, bending and streching verses.
When you can't iron out a certain inconsitancy explain that part with 'mystery verses'.
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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Is That REALLY Loving??
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 06:58:23 PM »
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 11:42:02 PM
For Calvinists: is it REALLY loving if an all powerful being brings creatures into existence and only intends to save a few of them?

For Arminians: is it REALLY loving if an all knowing being brings creatures into existence knowing that most will reject him and be lost forever?

Christians in general: is it REALLY loving if you tell people to love YOU - OR ELSE?!? And, on another thought, is it even possible to truly love a person who threatens you in such a way?

I'm beginning to realize, I think, that any such view of a being is not truly loving.

And all you have to do is check their doctrine against 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 to see how they stack up.
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Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Is That REALLY Loving??
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 07:05:05 PM »




My people are destroyed for the lack of the knowledge OF GOD.

Even the errors that we have made in life and God has "redeemed" us
from by His Love, give "us" the wherewith to LOVE others!!! With
the "same" comfort by which we are comforted. 


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Offline legoman

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Re: Is That REALLY Loving??
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 06:47:17 PM »
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 11:42:02 PM
For Calvinists: is it REALLY loving if an all powerful being brings creatures into existence and only intends to save a few of them?

For Arminians: is it REALLY loving if an all knowing being brings creatures into existence knowing that most will reject him and be lost forever?

Christians in general: is it REALLY loving if you tell people to love YOU - OR ELSE?!? And, on another thought, is it even possible to truly love a person who threatens you in such a way?

I'm beginning to realize, I think, that any such view of a being is not truly loving.

No, no, no and no.  Most (all?) people severely underestimate what it means to be all-powerful and what it means to be the very definition of love.
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