Author Topic: Christ's death  (Read 23102 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Christ's death
« on: October 27, 2010, 07:26:25 AM »
This may soung like a strange question, I found it odd at first myself, but here you go.

When did Christ die?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 07:38:08 AM »



never.

Offline Molly

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 07:55:12 AM »
It's not an odd question.  It's a good question.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2010, 02:57:57 PM »



never.

Why would you give that answer? 
1Co 15:3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 03:08:54 PM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2010, 02:58:32 PM »
It's not an odd question.  It's a good question.

I really believe so too.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2010, 04:30:11 PM »


The anointing of God can not die.

The body of Jesus did for three days.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2010, 07:00:28 PM »
 :cloud9: Kinda messes you up at first when you see that Christ is/was the Anointed One, doesn't it, Micah?   :winkgrin: Christ is the Seed that bears fruit after "it's" own kind, and "it's" own kind is the Father, and the Father is a SPIRIT.

He is the bread that came down from heaven, the LIFE of which, we drink. Unless a man eat of My flesh and drink of My blood, there is no life in Him. The life is in the blood. It was THIS blood that was taken into the Holy of Holies for us, for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The Anointed One "died" in the same way God did; by pouring His life/blood out. God "died" by pouring Himself into His creation, the lesser glory. It's only lesser because it's visible, "denser", but has His attributes, His spiritual Truth embodied in it, because how can He truly be any less than what He is? Answer is, He can't.

Jesus the man, was the "creation" that the Word/Anointed One that is SPIRIT, poured Himself into to make flesh or visible. He's doing the same thing with us, one "creation" at a time. My  :2c: Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2010, 07:05:24 PM »


The anointing of God can not die.

The body of Jesus did for three days.

I had debated on using the word Christ in that question for the very reason you speak of Beloved, but the very truth that it is Jesus The  Christ who died I left it as Christ.

Cardinal, it didnt mess me up at all.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2010, 07:08:50 PM »
 :cloud9: My mistake.....you weren't referring to what I thought you were......uh, never mind......
 :laughing7:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2010, 08:19:56 PM »
I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man. He had to leave the realm of immortality and die in a house of flesh to complete His work.
So Jesus The Christ was a man dying as he walked among men for 33 and a half years. When He said, "It is finished," He meant His dying here, was over. He died FOR us ( not instead of ) when He came down to be in the likeness of sinful flesh. His work was finished on the cross.
Now today, when we suffer for Him in anyway, it is not the dying dead man that is being persecuted, it is the new man that suffers the idignities, for the old man was crucified with Him.
The word "resurrection" means Rising Again. I look at how many times Israel had a "rising again," I am convinced that many of the members of the Body have that same experience of rising again, and thats just another reason for loving the Father and His Son that much more.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2010, 08:56:07 PM »
I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man. He had to leave the realm of immortality and die in a house of flesh to complete His work.
So Jesus The Christ was a man dying as he walked among men for 33 and a half years.
Just a thought. Some may even find it relevant....
Jesus was in the grave/heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights like Jonah was in the fish. Grave=earth=death.
What if those 3 days and 3 night were (not only) when He was in the tomb but refering to His ministry (3 summers and 3 winters) :mshock:
 
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Lefein

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2010, 09:35:50 PM »
In the same way that Adam was after his disobedience upon eating the fruit - dying he died, so too would Jesus the 2nd/Last Adam have been "dying he died" in his mission to take on the death penalty and paying the debt - It is finished.

Jesus while in a mortal body of dust and clay like us was dying, like us, until at last he died.  Then rising again in a body of fire, light and glory he lives incorruptible forever more - and we live because of that.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2010, 09:43:38 PM »
I always thought he remained dead. But now I no longer belive in soul sleep, so I belive he carried on living via spirit, by which he preached to the spirits in prison who lonng time ago were disobedient. ALso he himself said I will destroy this temple and raise it up in 3 days. A temple is a house of the true life of God.

 :2c:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2010, 09:50:12 PM »
TT,
 
I can understand you believed in soul sleep. There are at least a few verses that can be read that way.
But I wonder how you once could believe He remained dead. A few verses after His death there are many very clear and direct verses He's not dead.
 
So  :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2010, 10:32:41 PM »
Jesus Christ ALWAYS, ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes in public in PARABLES. Parables are not LITERAL, neither do they lie. I neglected to treat this teaching of Jesus as a "parable."

It NOWHERE SAYS that Jesus would be "DEAD for three days and three nights." I just ASSUMED that is what was meant by the phrase "in the HEART OF THE EARTH."

I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah."  Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone. 

"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!

And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this: 

"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).

The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.

You know as well as I (or maybe you don't, but now you do) that you need a SECOND WITNESS to establish any spiritual truth.  I gave you that second witness, but you didn't even get it because you are still thinking carnal and physical and literal, and that kind of thinking will never explain a parable, as parables are only "SPIRITUALLY discerned."

The second Scripture that is a Second Witness to "heart of the earth" is "Now that He ascended [which He did], what is it but that He also descended first into the LOWER [DEPTH, LOWER, UNDER, LOWEST LEVEL, etc.] parts of the earth?" (Eph. 4:9).  There it is. There  is the second witness.  But you still don't know what this parable is. The "heart [depth] of the earth" IS the parable.


BT L. Ray Smith
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2010, 11:21:20 PM »
There it is.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2010, 11:29:08 PM »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2010, 11:31:56 PM »


The heart of stone in every man.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM »
TT,
 
I can understand you believed in soul sleep. There are at least a few verses that can be read that way.
But I wonder how you once could believe He remained dead. A few verses after His death there are many very clear and direct verses He's not dead.
 
So  :dontknow:

Because I confused soul with spirit. There is a prophecy which said,

Psalm 16:10 
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So I once believed his soul died and also his spirit with the soul, for with soul sleep, the spirit is one with soul and not seperable.

I saw hell as sheol or the grave. But now I think there could be some kind of place down there under the earth, but I'm not certain about that and as to it's purpose. What I am more certain about is that Jesus has a  soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief on the cross and to preach to the spirits etc (whether they be angel or human)  :dontknow: . His spirit can be anywhere at all times, who manifests himself to e.g when people pray together. But his soul is his resurected body, who keeps his earthly identity, the lamb of God that is slain in the book of revelation and his personal appearances after his resurection to his disciples in a orderly timely manner.




Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2010, 12:27:29 AM »
Psalm 16:10 
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So I once believed his soul died and also his spirit with the soul, for with soul sleep, the spirit is one with soul and not seperable.
I'll ignore the soul sleep part to keep this thread on-topic.
That Psalm says the soul will not be left in hell/grave.
The body will not see corruption/decay. IIRC decay sets in at 4 days (see story of Lazarus raised from the dead)
So if the souls and spirit are not seperable then they both get out of the grave because the soul will not be left in the grave as Psalm state. (A certain verse states that the spirit returns to where it came from)

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I saw hell as sheol or the grave.
They are all the same. Remember that hell means "hidden". Also see it's pagan roots.
Quote
Why was Hell spelled Hel in parts of the KJV-1611 Bible?
Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant hidden, out of sight? Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they went to hel, they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.
Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.
Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.
Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.
The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok.

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But now I think there could be some kind of place down there under the earth, but I'm not certain about that and as to it's purpose.
I think you got that view from the Lazarus and Richman parable.
Many claim the underworld/under the earth has 2 compartments. The paradise side with the saints. The hell side with the sinners.
Many of who believe that also thing when Jesus was dead He preached in prison (the underworld) and emptied the paradise side.
Note: I'm not endorsing that view. I just mention what I've read and is on-topic.
 
Quote
What I am more certain about is that Jesus has a  soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief
Sure He will meet the thief. But when? 
Verily I say to you today you shall be in paradise. <--- Greek doesn't know comma's.
Verily I say to you today, you shall be in paradise. <--- Today I'm making you a promise for sometime in the future.
Verily I say to you, today you shall be in paradise. <--- You will be in paradise with me today.
Make your choice TT. But remeber:
- Jesus was not in paradise today. He was in a tomb.
- Jesus did not ascend to Father today. He was in the tomb and spent some time on earth before He ascended.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Pierac

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 02:17:17 AM »
Jesus died.  Deader than a door nail !

Jesus is the first born from the Dead!  This means the first human ever to be raised unto immortality!  The idea that humans contain any type of immortality (Soul or Spirit) is purely from Platonic teachings and not the scriptures.

The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):
"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings…. The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment…. Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

The fundamental confusion about life after death which has so permeated traditional Christianity is brilliantly described by Dr. Paul Althaus in his book, The Theology of Martin Luther (Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 413, 414):

 "The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."

That difference may be witnessed in contemporary preaching at funerals which, though claiming the Bible as its source, reflects a pagan Platonism which both the New Testament and the early Church Fathers rejected.

Paul


Offline Pierac

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 02:39:21 AM »

What I am more certain about is that Jesus has a soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief on the cross and to preach to the spirits etc (whether they be angel or human) 

You are mistaken!  Jesus life spirit returned to His God whom gave it, and He died!  What saith the scriptures?

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

What happened to Jesus' Spirit...

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Luk 23:46  And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Yet, Jesus had not yet returned to His Father!


Joh 20:17  Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Indeed, Jesus died and gave up His spirit yet tells us... " for I have not yet ascended to the Father."   Believe Him and not the Platonist views you have been fed!

Paul

Offline Lefein

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2010, 02:49:51 AM »
A man is not his soul however, and his body is just a garment.

Some have been taken up to Heaven already, Enoch, Elijah, and assumedly Moses, certainly Jesus.

Samuel also was pulled up from the grave along with others by the witch of Endor, "elohim" she called them - most likely because the spirits of the dead are superhumanesque, or have that presence of dread.

Samuel had to be pulled up from somewhere, along with those who were with him.  I don't think the witch could have pulled up all of Sheol, rather than looked down into it and called one out, if I may be so bold and speak a little bit in an extra biblical or speculative sense.  Sheol is a place, and it is surely a "somewhere".

After all, Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire in the end.

The Captives in Sheol were also lead out of it, the prisoners that Jesus preached to in the grave...But I don't think they would have been lead out of Sheol just to be lead into "non-existence" or something tantamount to it to waiting millenniea for their resurrection.

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"Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT."

Sounds to me like a statement of trust, rather than a statement of immediacy.

However, it may have been a declaration of both, as soon after (3 days hence) Jesus was indeed sitting at the right hand of the Father, as a fellow follower attested to later, and said.

Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

This very same follower, by the name of Stephen who said;

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 02:56:17 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Pierac

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2010, 05:22:27 AM »
Some have been taken up to Heaven already, Enoch, Elijah, and assumedly Moses, certainly Jesus.

Jesus Yes!  Enoch, Elijah and Moses... not even close!

Believe Jesus,(John 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Yes, you may say... What about 2 Kings 2:11: "And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth. This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab's vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.

"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:

"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:
"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus' statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven."  Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man's interpretation of this verse is wrong?

What about Enoch?

The problem with Enoch is two-fold. The first is in Genesis 5:24, it states:
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him."

In order to understand this verse you will have to read all of chapter five. People claim that since of everyone else it is said, "then he died" and of Enoch it is not, but instead it says that he "walked with God, for God took him," then that means that Enoch went to heaven with God. If you read the paragraph that talks about Enoch without this preconceived idea, you will come to the conclusion that Enoch died.

It says in verse 23:
"That the whole lifetime of Enoch was three hundred and sixty-five years."

To me that implies that Enoch's whole lifetime was three hundred and sixty-five years and then he died. I do not see any hint that Enoch did not die. It says that "Enoch walked with God," but so did Noah in Genesis 6:10:
"Noah, a good man and blameless in that age, for he walked with God."

"Walked with God," means that the person follows God's will. "God took him," means that God took his breath of life and that person died. We still use this saying today, we commonly say that God took a family member or a friend when we mean that someone died. The word translated as "took" is the Hebrew word laqah. It means:
laqah – of removal by death (The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon).

An excellent example of the usage of this word is in Ezekiel 33:6:
"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the warning trumpet, so that the sword comes and takes (laqah) anyone, I will hold the watchman responsible for that person's death, even though that person is taken (laqah) because of their own sin."

Notice how it is used, the sword comes and takes someone, in other words, kills someone. This is why the watchman will be held responsible for that person's death.
So why is there a difference between the phrases of all the other people mentioned and Enoch? There is no clear-cut answer, but my opinion is that something happened to Enoch that cut his life short. Either an accident or illness, but something that prevented him from dying of old age like the others. Everyone mentioned lived to over nine hundred years old, except Lamech who lived to almost eight hundred years old. However, Enoch only lived to be three hundred and sixty-five years old. Something happened to Enoch that cut his life short; this is why it is said, "God took him."
   
The second verse is in Hebrews 11:5 where Paul is speaking about the faith of the ancients. It says:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was found no more because God had taken him."
The problem that we arrive at if we say that because of this verse Enoch did not die, is that the same author in the same chapter in verse 13 says that all the ancients that he was talking about (which Enoch was one of) have died:
"All these died in faith."

So Abraham and Noah and Enoch and all the others mentioned died. So how do we explain verse 5? The clue is in knowing what the author meant when he said "That he should not see death." Obviously he does not mean that he did not die because he writes a few verses later that he did die.

In John 8:51 Jesus says:
"I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."
This is identical to Hebrews 11:5. I do not think that Jesus meant that whoever keeps his word will be taken to heaven without ever experiencing death. It is more likely that Jesus means that whoever keeps his word will not experience eternal death. That they will be resurrected on the last day. Hebrews 11:5 meaning is probably along these lines.

For me, I am convinced that Enoch did die. I cannot let one verse that I cannot explain fully counter all the evidence in the massive amount of verses that are very specific on death.

Paul who wrote Hebrews says in Romans 5:12:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."
Death came to all men, that includes Enoch. This statement of Paul also strengthens the position of Hebrews 11:13 "They all died in faith."

If we isolate Enoch from all the evidence on death, the preponderance of the evidence is about 75% in favor that Enoch died, and 25% that he did not see death. If we do not isolate Enoch from all the other Scriptures on death Enoch is really not a factor.

If Enoch went to heaven, then again, we have to assume that Jesus was wrong in John 3:13:    "No one has gone up to heaven."


Paul




Offline Lefein

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Re: Christ's death
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2010, 05:40:20 AM »
Then where the heck did Elijah, Enoch, and Moses go?  :mshock:

An observation though; Going to Heaven, going home to be with the Lord, etc; wouldn't ruin glory...because our home is a remade Earth and Universe (Heaven included I am sure), not just Heaven.

Jesus said that no one has gone up to Heaven indeed, but what about after he did?  He has a glorified body as the first fruit - which we shall also have, but disembodiment as a spirit in Heaven seems possible, considering the nature of Angels there already, atleast as far as we know of them.

Revelation seems to show saints before the resurrection pleading for their recompense for those who had spilled their blood.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are (as far as I can read) in Heaven, in the presence of God these souls who are awaiting their brethren, and their recompense.  They are "resting" in Heaven it would seem.

I'd always thought of Heaven as a resort, a place of rest until it is time to "go Home" (the glorified new creation) and it seems to make some sort of sense in light of Revelation which while it may be symbolic, I believe there is a literal kernel to all of it.

It is of my belief, that the souls, and spirits atleast (though bodiless) of the saints are in Heaven at rest, not in Sheol, or the grave.  Because we are filled with life upon being saved, and so the grave should not be able to hold us.  The unsaved however...perhaps so, perhaps they are held by the grave, and held by Death, that might explain ghosts if they exist at all, not to go off topic or extra biblical.  But only to contrast the difference.  Those who are dead, and those who are alive.



« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 05:55:09 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.