Author Topic: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused  (Read 25746 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #275 on: February 20, 2009, 08:55:04 PM »
It is not the eyeball that 'sees,' it is the brain.  The brain interprets the images the eyeball sends it.  But if the brain is working with a flawed eye, it has to interpret flawed images of reality.  Well, that is the literal truth.  If you are seeing double, does that mean that the reality is double?  Or is there something wrong with the eye?  Although the eye is not the last arbitrer of truth, it IS the first.  It is the foundation, so to speak.

That's why he says sin lies at the door.


7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


--James1


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #276 on: February 20, 2009, 09:00:45 PM »
 :cloud9: And double minded, is carnal mind in conjunction with the mind of Christ, which is why it's the in part realm, until this thorn in our flesh is finally put down. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #277 on: February 20, 2009, 09:06:43 PM »
Yes, so when both eyes are seeing the same thing and seeing it perfectly--working at 20/20 so to speak--working together so to speak--we suddenly can see clearly because we are seeing through one eye.



Matthew 6:22
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #278 on: February 20, 2009, 09:09:54 PM »
It is not the eyeball that 'sees,' it is the brain.  The brain interprets the images the eyeball sends it.  But if the brain is working with a flawed eye, it has to interpret flawed images of reality.  Well, that is the literal truth.  If you are seeing double, does that mean that the reality is double?  Or is there something wrong with the eye?  Although the eye is not the last arbitrer of truth, it IS the first.  It is the foundation, so to speak.

That's why he says sin lies at the door.


7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


--James1


Blessed are the EYE (s) that SEE = Understanding

Your EYE = WHOLE , SOUND = complete

If your eye BE single it be FULL of LIGHT= Christ ,the LIGHT of Knowledge...

as Card said , Mixing , Babylon means CONFUSION by Mixing.


One Wine Skin of the Old Wine, another for the NEW, so BOTH be preserved...if you will, seeing one the tutor to the NEW bearing witness to ONE
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #279 on: February 20, 2009, 09:12:03 PM »
Tony, you wrote......

Jesus is a literal man.
Jesus is figuratively a lamb.

I think people often confuse "figurative" with "spiritual." When they say this or that is "spiritual" they really mean it is figurative.


This second part helps me.

As to the first could we say Jesus is literally God?

cp

Gosh, I wish we could carry this over on my "Natural or Spiritual" thread.

I guess you have to define your term "God." What do you mean by "God"?

The term "God" is a title, an office. The bible does say that Jesus is God. In the sense of the biblical definition of "God" Jesus literally is God in that sense.

Now here's something interesting as to something that truly is spiritual:

1Co 10:2 and all are baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the spiritual Rock which followed. Now the Rock was Christ."

The literal food they ate was manna which fell from the heavens. But Paul doesn't just say they all ate manna, but that they ate "spiritual food."

Likewise, when Moses struck the rock more than he should have, water flowed out and the people drank of that water. It really was water. But Paul doesn't just say they drank water but that they drank spiritual water from a spiritual rock.

Did Jesus really metamorphize into a rock and when Moses struck Him water flowed out?

In 10:2 when they passed through the sea of weeds they were baptized into Moses without getting a drop of water on them. Were they literally burried in Moses?

Interesting, huh?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #280 on: February 20, 2009, 09:14:01 PM »
heh heh... :thumbsup:

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #281 on: February 20, 2009, 09:26:47 PM »
Tony, you wrote......

Jesus is a literal man.
Jesus is figuratively a lamb.

I think people often confuse "figurative" with "spiritual." When they say this or that is "spiritual" they really mean it is figurative.


This second part helps me.

As to the first could we say Jesus is literally God?

cp

Gosh, I wish we could carry this over on my "Natural or Spiritual" thread.

I guess you have to define your term "God." What do you mean by "God"?

The term "God" is a title, an office. The bible does say that Jesus is God. In the sense of the biblical definition of "God" Jesus literally is God in that sense.

Now here's something interesting as to something that truly is spiritual:

1Co 10:2 and all are baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the spiritual Rock which followed. Now the Rock was Christ."

The literal food they ate was manna which fell from the heavens. But Paul doesn't just say they all ate manna, but that they ate "spiritual food."

Likewise, when Moses struck the rock more than he should have, water flowed out and the people drank of that water. It really was water. But Paul doesn't just say they drank water but that they drank spiritual water from a spiritual rock.

Did Jesus really metamorphize into a rock and when Moses struck Him water flowed out?

In 10:2 when they passed through the sea of weeds they were baptized into Moses without getting a drop of water on them. Were they literally burried in Moses?

Interesting, huh?

Ya got me really thinking about spiritual vs figurative but I have another question on the word literal. It almost seems like we could use the word 'really' or 'truely' or 'in all reality' in the place of literal couldn't we?

Jesus is literally God. Jesus is really God. Jesus is truely God.

Water is literally wet. Water is, in all reality, wet. Water is truely wet.

cp

For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #282 on: February 20, 2009, 09:32:23 PM »
Spiritual or figurative.

I see all of Scripture in a spiritual way.

I see all of Scripture in a figurative way.

I see some of Scripture in a physical way, as a physical event.


Who here would say they think these 3 statements are true and why or why not?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #283 on: February 20, 2009, 09:36:39 PM »
The literal food they ate was manna which fell from the heavens. But Paul doesn't just say they all ate manna, but that they ate "spiritual food."

Tony, you could say 'The physical food they ate.........' right?

By the way, that is an interesting observation about the spiritual and the physical.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #284 on: February 20, 2009, 09:39:18 PM »
Yep, cp, sound right to me.

You could say the cup wasn't really blood and the bread wasn't really His body.
But you could say the cup represented His blood of the new covenant and the bread represented His body, broken for us.

The water really is wet.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #285 on: February 20, 2009, 09:41:59 PM »
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It almost seems like we could use the word 'really' or 'truely' or 'in all reality' in the place of literal couldn't we?

In other words, what is true, is literal.


1. Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words.
2. Word for word; verbatim: a literal translation.

3. Avoiding exaggeration, metaphor, or embellishment; factual; prosaic: a literal description; a literal mind.



If the truth is so wonderful it seems too good to be true, who needs to embellish it?

Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #286 on: February 20, 2009, 09:50:35 PM »
Yep, cp, sound right to me.

You could say the cup wasn't really blood and the bread wasn't really His body.
But you could say the cup represented His blood of the new covenant and the bread represented His body, broken for us.

The water really is wet.
Yes, but you've put in your own word there--'represent.'

That is not what he says.  This is what he says--


1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.


So then the question becomes--what is he literally saying?  And, that's not such an easy question to answer.

Speaking of the Catholics, I have known Catholics who were terrified of dropping a crumb from the host for fear of defiling the literal body of Jesus.  But is that really literally what he was saying?  Does Jesus mean us to think that he is literally a cracker?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #287 on: February 20, 2009, 09:52:55 PM »
Speaking of the Catholics, I have known Catholics who were terrified of dropping a crumb from the host for fear of defiling the literal body of Jesus.  But is that really literally what he was saying?


So what makes bread Jesus?    Did I eat some peanut butter and jelly  on jesus body last night?


Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #288 on: February 20, 2009, 09:57:27 PM »
Speaking of the Catholics, I have known Catholics who were terrified of dropping a crumb from the host for fear of defiling the literal body of Jesus.  But is that really literally what he was saying?


So what makes bread Jesus?    Did I eat some peanut butter and jelly  on jesus body last night?


That's another thread.  I was just making a point. :happygrin:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #289 on: February 20, 2009, 09:57:55 PM »
this is in response to tony's post about 8 posts ago.

that's why i call it spiritual  . . your mind can't see it until God reveals it.  Christ was the manna, Christ was the rock  . . he was the 5 stones David chose   . . . he's the stone not cut by human hands   . . . a figurative picture is both literal and spiritual.  The literal can be physically seen and spiritually affirmed  ... but the spiritual can not be literally seen, only spiritually revealed.

I know that sounds confusing, but like what we see with the rock . . . it was a literal rock that literal water flowed from.  Figuratively, we can see that this is a picture of the church that gets it's life from the river of God  . . . 2nd dimension always connects to a corporate body  . . third dimension is the heart of the truth  .  the rock is Christ "in me" there is a river that flows . . .so it's both figurative and spiritual.  Type and shadow .  . patterned after the nature of God.

The mount of transfiguration was an event seen by natural eyes  . . . yet it's also a figurative picture.  Peter "saw" and wanted to give honor by building a memorial kind of thing to all three of the beings he was seeing . . . but he was stopped in his tracks .  thats what literally happened  . . . figuratively, the church does the same thing, they try to build ministries surrounding anything that looks like it's godly . .  the corporate church . . .second dimension . . . spiritually . .. you take that figurative picture and see that Moses represents the law ,. . Elijah represents the prophets .  Jesus was the manna .  all three articles that were "in" the ark of the covenant.  And it was hidden "beneath" the mercy seat . .which isn't a chair, but a position where Christ dwells.  

These articles were lost by the Israelites way back before they even had a king yet.  Eli was the high priest at the time . . .when they got the ark back. . the manna was gone and the budding staff was gone .  they lost the bread and the spirit . . .all they had left to live on was the law.  But that all changed at the mount of transfiguration . . . God was healing his broken heart by reestablishing the three key ingredients that make Christ who he is.

Yes, it's figurative, but the figurative leads into the spiritual.  And the spiritual can only be seen when God "reveals" it to you through your relationship with him.

The other thing about the eye . . .truth be told . . . we do have "one" eye in our heads .  but we don't call it that . . .we call it the pineal gland (sp?)  If you do a little research on this body part . . . I believe much will begin to manifest in just how much this little organ is connected to our spiritual vision

Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #290 on: February 20, 2009, 10:02:07 PM »
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The other thing about the eye . . .truth be told . . . we do have "one" eye in our heads .  but we don't call it that . . .we call it the pineal gland (sp?)  If you do a little research on this body part . . . I believe much will begin to manifest in just how much this little organ is connected to our spiritual vision

Tell us more.

This thread is doomed, anyways...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #291 on: February 20, 2009, 10:07:48 PM »
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a figurative picture is both literal and spiritual.  The literal can be physically seen and spiritually affirmed  ... but the spiritual can not be literally seen, only spiritually revealed.

oh for simplicity :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #292 on: February 20, 2009, 10:08:05 PM »

Tell us more.

This thread is doomed, anyways...

To purgatory or hell?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #293 on: February 20, 2009, 10:08:35 PM »
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Yes, it's figurative, but the figurative leads into the spiritual.  And the spiritual can only be seen when God "reveals" it to you through your relationship with him.

The ark was literal.  The tent of the meeting was literal.  The temple was literal.

What you are calling the spiritual aspect of any of those items is literal.

If you are seeing a shadow, it is of something that is real.  The real thing is casting the shadow.

Build it exactly to my specifications...

That's the one eye--both together--the miracle...

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #294 on: February 20, 2009, 10:10:28 PM »
Molly, you wrote....

In other words, what is true, is literal.

That's just my point. What is true to one is false to another yet the word 'literal' seems to be used to denote physical things or 'real things' (like only the physical is real) as opposed to things spiritual.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #295 on: February 20, 2009, 10:11:00 PM »
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The real thing is casting the shadow.
Tis why its the SHADOW :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #296 on: February 20, 2009, 10:13:50 PM »
Quote
The real thing is casting the shadow.
Tis why its the SHADOW :icon_flower:

Amen Taf. Would you say 'The literal thing is casting the shadow?'

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #297 on: February 20, 2009, 10:20:40 PM »
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The real thing is casting the shadow.
Tis why its the SHADOW :icon_flower:

Amen Taf. Would you say 'The literal thing is casting the shadow?'

cp
You didn't ask me, but obviously, I would.  The shadow, also, is real, it's just not the whole story.


Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #298 on: February 20, 2009, 10:22:56 PM »
Quote
The real thing is casting the shadow.
Tis why its the SHADOW :icon_flower:

Amen Taf. Would you say 'The literal thing is casting the shadow?'

cp
You didn't ask me, but obviously, I would.  The shadow, also, is real, it's just not the whole story.


Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


So Molly, would you say the literal thing is the spiritual?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #299 on: February 20, 2009, 10:24:32 PM »
Quote
The real thing is casting the shadow.
Tis why its the SHADOW :icon_flower:

Amen Taf. Would you say 'The literal thing is casting the shadow?'

cp
Thats rhetorical Right :icon_flower:

I know we can get Hung up on word defs....Kinda drives me nuts,My simplicity is FIRST the Natural , then the spiritual..The natural being the shadow of the spiritual reality is how I word it

Types and shadows,,as In Adam being Natural of the spiritual ADAM Christ

As with the Temple etc....



As Nat keeps saying and saying and saying :HeartThrob:


 :icon_flower:

why on earth would we wish to go back to the the Shadow :dontknow:

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.