Author Topic: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused  (Read 28688 times)

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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #175 on: February 17, 2009, 08:03:04 AM »
It seems to understand tartarus (hapax legomeni) one must go to the world of Greek speakers contemporaneous with the N.T.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Brian

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #176 on: February 17, 2009, 08:13:25 PM »
Quote from: Tony N link=topic=4810.msg51773#msg51773

It wasn't really Samuel she brought up but a familiar spirit.

And how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Quote
Also, Matthew 22:32 is concerning the resurrection of the dead and how that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must be resurrected (flesh, bones and blood).
Jesus said so Himself:

Which translation did you get that verse from?

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #177 on: February 17, 2009, 08:20:56 PM »
Samuel wouldn't defy God's command to do for what His Law prescribed a death sentence.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Brian

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #178 on: February 17, 2009, 08:33:25 PM »

Nathan falsely accused me:
Quote
. . .you want to present yourself as more knowledgable, yet your "sound" doctrine never holds water.

Nathan, not only are you rude but you are a false accuser of the brethren. Just because I share my thoughts with people on these boards does not in any way mean I am trying to present myself as more knowledgeable than anyone else.

Tony, you seem to me personally to have an aswer for everything to fit your viewpoit, no matter how many hoops and rabbit trails it takes to get there, and it seems a destination is often never actually reached. The more I read your matertial, the more inclined I am to disregard what you have to say.

Suggested reading for this discussion group: 2 Peter 2
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Brian

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #179 on: February 17, 2009, 08:42:39 PM »
That BAN button is a sticky key..kinda difficult to push

Then get some WD-40.

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Nathan

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #180 on: February 17, 2009, 09:08:18 PM »
Actually . . . I'm kinda glad it was sticky this time . . .I really thought I would come in today and find myself among the ousted. 

Offline Brian

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #181 on: February 17, 2009, 09:08:46 PM »
I guess I need to take this question elsewhere. Because there's no way I'm reading through 180 posts to separate the wheat from the chaff. :laughing7:

Does anyone know if there's a way to block a certain poster from replying to / hijacking your thread?

Some advice to the spiritually younger Christians in this discussion group.
Get a firm orthodox foundation in your learning first. Teaching that is as fundamentally Scriptural as possible first, before going off on ventures, lest you be as a result, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming (Ephesians 4:14)
And if I might add; plain unscriptural invented and or delusional hogwash.
Learn the basics first and learn them well.
If there's a particular doctrine, like ET or UR, that the Holy Spirit wants to enlighten you on, a sound solid foundation will not detour you from that.
But it will allow Him to better enlighten you on what's made by God, and what's made up by man. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 09:36:47 PM by Brian »
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Brian

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #182 on: February 17, 2009, 09:27:50 PM »
Actually . . . I'm kinda glad it was sticky this time . . .I really thought I would come in today and find myself among the ousted. 

Why is that? In other words, I'm asking you to critique why you made that statement.
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Tony N

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #183 on: February 17, 2009, 09:52:28 PM »
I guess I need to take this question elsewhere. Because there's no way I'm reading through 180 posts to separate the wheat from the chaff. :laughing7:

Does anyone know if there's a way to block a certain poster from replying to / hijacking your thread?

Some advice to the spiritually younger Christians in this discussion group.
Get a firm orthodox foundation in your learning first. Teaching that is as fundamentally Scriptural as possible first, before going off on ventures, lest you be as a result, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming (Ephesians 4:14)
And if I might add; plain unscriptural invented and or delusional hogwash.
Learn the basics first and learn them well.
If there's a particular doctrine, like ET or UR, that the Holy Spirit wants to enlighten you on, a sound solid foundation will not detour you from that.
But it will allow Him to better enlighten you on what's made by God, and what's made up by man. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Aaaaaaaaaman brother!
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #184 on: February 17, 2009, 09:55:28 PM »
Actually . . . I'm kinda glad it was sticky this time . . .I really thought I would come in today and find myself among the ousted. 

Why is that? In other words, I'm asking you to critique why you made that statement.

Go back and read reply #168 . . .it's on page 7 of this thread . . .it kinda speaks for itself.

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #185 on: February 17, 2009, 10:01:04 PM »
Due to piecemeal research, I've come across the following:

In the first six schools of Christian theology, ET was only taught in the one in Rome.
So, ET is basically an RC invention.

However, then I heard that John Paul II said you don't have to believe in the RC church or even Jesus Christ to be saved. You're saved by adhering to the Beatitudes.

Then recently my pastor who was raised a Catholic, reminisced about how priests would tell him everyone will eventually get to heaven (quoted in a sarcastic tone).
Before that I heard him saying in the same tone how he'd hear, you better keep up with your confessions or you might die with an un-confessed mortal sin (which I took as meaning having to maintain salvation)

So, I'm wondering off hand, what's the deal?

Also, when I hear the subject of Purgatory being brought up by fundamental apologists,
they say this is a purely Catholic invention based on a single verse in the apocraful  book of Maccabees

But, wasn't Purgatory actually originally taught in BC Judaism?


Brian, what is it that you are asking? I mean 'What's the deal?' is not an easy question to answer. As to purgatory being originally taught in BC Judaism, what will it mean to you if the answer is yes or if the answer is no?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Brian

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #186 on: February 17, 2009, 11:31:52 PM »
Due to piecemeal research, I've come across the following:

In the first six schools of Christian theology, ET was only taught in the one in Rome.
So, ET is basically an RC invention.

However, then I heard that John Paul II said you don't have to believe in the RC church or even Jesus Christ to be saved. You're saved by adhering to the Beatitudes.

Then recently my pastor who was raised a Catholic, reminisced about how priests would tell him everyone will eventually get to heaven (quoted in a sarcastic tone).
Before that I heard him saying in the same tone how he'd hear, you better keep up with your confessions or you might die with an un-confessed mortal sin (which I took as meaning having to maintain salvation)

So, I'm wondering off hand, what's the deal?

Also, when I hear the subject of Purgatory being brought up by fundamental apologists,
they say this is a purely Catholic invention based on a single verse in the apocraful  book of Maccabees

But, wasn't Purgatory actually originally taught in BC Judaism?


Brian, what is it that you are asking? I mean 'What's the deal?' is not an easy question to answer. As to purgatory being originally taught in BC Judaism, what will it mean to you if the answer is yes or if the answer is no?

cp
]

I'm not asking for easy answers CP - nor made up ones. If someone doesn't know the answer to a question, then they shouldn't attempt to provide one should they?
This was merely a musing on my part. On one hand I've heard from Catholics (or former Catholics) including quotes from Popes, that if you're not a Catholic and do not submit to their traditions, you're going to Hell i.e. eternal torment.
On the other hand I've heard from Catholics (or former Catholics) including quotes from Popes, that if you're not a Catholic and do not submit to their traditions, you're still going to Heaven. It's a dichotomy. It seems substantially inconsistent.
As to the second part of my question, based on what I've read regarding the Judaic concept of Hell, it is purgatorial. In other words, intended to purge, and temporary. Mind you, I haven't done any serious study into this. And, I'm referring to original pre-Talmud Judaic theology regarding "Hell".
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Brian

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #187 on: February 17, 2009, 11:34:39 PM »
Aaaaaaaaaman brother!

You're a real piece of work, brother.
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Doc

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #188 on: February 17, 2009, 11:42:09 PM »
Due to piecemeal research, I've come across the following:

In the first six schools of Christian theology, ET was only taught in the one in Rome.
So, ET is basically an RC invention.

However, then I heard that John Paul II said you don't have to believe in the RC church or even Jesus Christ to be saved. You're saved by adhering to the Beatitudes.

Then recently my pastor who was raised a Catholic, reminisced about how priests would tell him everyone will eventually get to heaven (quoted in a sarcastic tone).
Before that I heard him saying in the same tone how he'd hear, you better keep up with your confessions or you might die with an un-confessed mortal sin (which I took as meaning having to maintain salvation)

So, I'm wondering off hand, what's the deal?

Also, when I hear the subject of Purgatory being brought up by fundamental apologists,
they say this is a purely Catholic invention based on a single verse in the apocraful  book of Maccabees

But, wasn't Purgatory actually originally taught in BC Judaism?


Brian, what is it that you are asking? I mean 'What's the deal?' is not an easy question to answer. As to purgatory being originally taught in BC Judaism, what will it mean to you if the answer is yes or if the answer is no?

cp
]

I'm not asking for easy answers CP - nor made up ones. If someone doesn't know the answer to a question, then they shouldn't attempt to provide one should they?
This was merely a musing on my part. On one hand I've heard from Catholics (or former Catholics) including quotes from Popes, that if you're not a Catholic and do not submit to their traditions, you're going to Hell i.e. eternal torment.
On the other hand I've heard from Catholics (or former Catholics) including quotes from Popes, that if you're not a Catholic and do not submit to their traditions, you're still going to Heaven. It's a dichotomy. It seems substantially inconsistent.
As to the second part of my question, based on what I've read regarding the Judaic concept of Hell, it is purgatorial. In other words, intended to purge, and temporary. Mind you, I haven't done any serious study into this. And, I'm referring to original pre-Talmud Judaic theology regarding "Hell".


I'm not very familiar with early Judaic (Hebraic) theology, but my understanding is that they didn't know anything of "hell", only sheol.
I think I remember reading that by the time of the NT Pharisees, they had developed a doctrine that was essentially endless hell for some. Seems like they borrowed this idea from paganism though.
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #189 on: February 18, 2009, 12:43:25 AM »
 :cloud9: The Jews believe in a purgatory that they call Sheol. They, to this day, pray a Mourner's Kaddish for a person up to one year after their departure, because they believe that God chastises for only that long, and view it not as the "Christian" hell, but as a time of God bringing repentance and correction. Psalm 16, where David says that the Lord will not LEAVE HIS soul (not Messiah's) in hell (Sheol) is also quoted at this time, for that reason. Just because the translators translated it as hell, does not mean it was the Jewish understanding of what that word there, which is Sheol, means.

IMO from what God has shown me personally, a great disservice was done to the original church when the Gentile nations who knew nothing of Jewish understanding of the scriptures that THEY had been given, and been taught by Moses to understand, began to alter things to suit themselves and their own lack of understanding. The gentiles were grafted into them, not the other way around. Constantine being an anti-semite did not help.

For this reason, they lost the foundational understandings that make it impossible to fully understand the new covenant, including the tabernacle for the most part, even though Heb. 10 tells us it's the pattern of the things in the heavenlies. And; for instance, how many churches did you ever hear preach that the "Last Supper" was actually a type of Passover Seder? Or that the "great feast" Jesus went in unawares of the disciples, was the feast of Tabernacles? This would be clear to a Jewish reader, but not to a gentile. So how many more things were missed? Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #190 on: February 18, 2009, 03:26:34 AM »
... when I hear the subject of Purgatory being brought up by fundamental apologists,
they say this is a purely Catholic invention based on a single verse in the apocraful  book of Maccabees

But, wasn't Purgatory actually originally taught in BC Judaism?

The Hebrew texts were in reference to "Sheol" and the purgatorial interpretation is not found, unless you include the book(s) of Maccabees. However, combine this with the Pagan underworld, and you have PURGATORY an idea that was adopted by the Jews from the Egyptians, etc.

Although, there are those who see this, as the mercy of God?

peacemaker


An act of contemplating, or a thoughtful religious observation.

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Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #191 on: February 18, 2009, 06:21:35 AM »
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

--John17


Offline Molly

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #192 on: February 18, 2009, 06:19:24 PM »
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

--Rom 14


Offline Tony N

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #193 on: February 18, 2009, 07:05:26 PM »
Molly, I can understand their aggravation. It is a hard and bitter pill to swallow when someone like me comes along and presents ideas counter to what Nathan, Brian and cp have held.

So rather than change, they change the focus from where their theology is wrong to focusing on the messenger, me.

So rather than them seeing anything wrong on their end, they go so low as to accuse me of all manner of evil in the hopes that this refocusing on me will deflect away from them and their defects.

Hey, they did it to Jesus when He brought to light all the bad theology of the Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees. And look what they did to Him. First, to deflect attention away from themselves they accuse Him of having a demon, being a drunkard and one who eats with sinners and born illegitamately. When that deflection didn't work they crucified Him.

I see these people are not repenting of this abuse of me so I must *sigh* give them over to God and let Him deal with them.

May He be merciful to them in that day
.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 07:23:13 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #194 on: February 18, 2009, 07:22:16 PM »
Molly, I can understand their aggravation. It is a hard and bitter pill to swallow when someone like me comes along and presents ideas counter to what Nathan, Brian and cp have held.

So rather than change, they change the focus to where their theology is wrong to focusing on the messenger, me.

So rather than them seeing anything wrong on their end, they go so low as to accuse me of all manner of evil in the hopes that this refocusing on me will deflect away from them and their defects.

Hey, they did it to Jesus when He brought to light all the bad theology of the Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees. And look what they did to Him. First, to deflect attention away from themselves they accuse Him of having a demon, being a drunkard and one who eats with sinners and born illegitamately. When that deflection didn't work they crucified Him.

I see these people are not repenting of this abuse of me so I must *sigh* give them over to God and let Him deal with them.

May He be mercifyl to them in that day
.


Tony, this is not the place to deal with our frustrations with each other but it did start out on these forums so I wanted to say a few words concerning it for those who will read and learn how things like this can be dealt with. I am definitely not one to throw stones and I sure don't have enough evidence to judge anyone but I put some hard words out in order to see God would do with them. I only want to see any ungodly characteristics within me, you and all people disappear.

Maybe we should start another thread on how to deal with these things. I just don't think God would have us ignore wrong if we think something is wrong but I know He does not want us condemning others who we just disagree with.

I am not in fear of my beliefs being shattered to the point where I must destroy any messenger that opposes me. I know myself far too well to think I have all knowledge.

I guess it will take more looking into. I am glad there are moderators here to watch out for us as best they can.

Maybe it's just your style that is irritating to me as maybe mine is to you. If so, so be it and I must grow into more maturity and deal with it. I think I will start a new thread and see what I can learn...

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #195 on: February 18, 2009, 07:28:29 PM »
cp, your postings don't irritate me. What does is when you join in the character assasination of me.

Don't worry, I've already allerted the mods for this board about this matter.

What is sad is neither you nor Nathan nor Brian see they have done any wrong in this matter.

You say you are not one to throw stones yet you did. Please cp don't try to come across as holier than thou in this matter. Just repent of this abuse.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 07:37:19 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #196 on: February 18, 2009, 07:34:13 PM »
cp, your postings don't irritate me. What does is when you join in the character assasination of me.

Don't worry, I've already allerted the mods for these board about this matter.

What is sad is neither you nor Nathan nor Brian see they have done any wrong in this matter.

You say you are not one to throw stones yet you did. Please cp don't try to come across as holier than thou in this matter. Just repent of this abuse.

Because I see this as a great lesson possibility in all manner of ways I have started a new thread to learn.

I have confessed to what I think was wrong on my part. Do you see any wrong on your part in any of this?

I will not repent anymore than I have as I just don't know what to repent of but thanks for the advice.

Let's continue learning from God via the other thread so as to not take away from the subject matter here.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #197 on: February 18, 2009, 08:47:28 PM »
I will not repent anymore than I have as I just don't know what to repent of but thanks for the advice.
cp

I didn't see where you repented at all of your illicit abuse towards me. Maybe I missed it but I read through the posts and couldn't find it. Just curious, that's all.

And no, I'm not baiting, not trolling, not being sarcastic, not being mean or nasty or whatever else you folks want to heap upon me.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #198 on: February 18, 2009, 08:54:06 PM »
Then let it go man, if we are guilty of the charge and are not repenting, you should rejoice rather than demand closure.  God is the one that brings the rewards . . .just let it go.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused
« Reply #199 on: February 18, 2009, 08:56:04 PM »
I will not repent anymore than I have as I just don't know what to repent of but thanks for the advice.
cp

I didn't see where you repented at all of your illicit abuse towards me. Maybe I missed it but I read through the posts and couldn't find it. Just curious, that's all.

And no, I'm not baiting, not trolling, not being sarcastic, not being mean or nasty or whatever else you folks want to heap upon me.

GUMP!

But let by gones be bygones and start again :icon_flower:


Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.