Catholicism and Hell... I'm so confused

[Brian]

Due to piecemeal research, I've come across the following:

In the first six schools of Christian theology, ET was only taught in the one in Rome.
So, ET is basically an RC invention.

However, then I heard that John Paul II said you don't have to believe in the RC church or even Jesus Christ to be saved. You're saved by adhering to the Beatitudes.

Then recently my pastor who was raised a Catholic, reminisced about how priests would tell him everyone will eventually get to heaven (quoted in a sarcastic tone).
Before that I heard him saying in the same tone how he'd hear, you better keep up with your confessions or you might die with an un-confessed mortal sin (which I took as meaning having to maintain salvation)

So, I'm wondering off hand, what's the deal?

Also, when I hear the subject of Purgatory being brought up by fundamental apologists,
they say this is a purely Catholic invention based on a single verse in the apocraful  book of Maccabees

But, wasn't Purgatory actually originally taught in BC Judaism?

[Cardinal]

  yes, it was.....

[Tony N]

I don't know if purgatory was taught by BC Jews but let me say this about the big purge.

The reason I have a hard time believing in it is it is supposed to make a person acceptable to God, or get one out of the middle part between heaven and hell to get you into heaven after you have your sins purged out of you.

But this really denies the finished work of Christ's obedience to the cross and being the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

Purgatory lessens the real outcome of Christ's victory in Romans 5:18,19 for all mankind.

Now I am not saying that we can do whatever we want and sin all we want and there is no discipline for such a life. There surely is. But I believe this discipline happens in this life so we are not condemned in the future with the world:

1Co 11:32 Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."

Christ died for our sins. He did not die to keep manking from very needful loving correction. But purgatory? No, I don't think so.

[Apocatastasis]

The reason I have a hard time believing in it is it is supposed to make a person acceptable to God, or get one out of the middle part between heaven and hell to get you into heaven after you have your sins purged out of you.

But this really denies the finished work of Christ's obedience to the cross and being the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

Christ came to baptize with purging fire.  His work is still underway.   Afterall, He came to destroy sin and death, but we all know that sin and death are still around.

[WhiteWings]

Brian

Also, when I hear the subject of Purgatory being brought up by fundamental apologists,
they say this is a purely Catholic invention based on a single verse in the apocraful  book of Maccabees

Please quote that verse.

The reason I have a hard time believing in it is it is supposed to make a person acceptable to God, or get one out of the middle part between heaven and hell to get you into heaven after you have your sins purged out of you.

But this really denies the finished work of Christ's obedience to the cross and being the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world..

It doesn't and is in line with UR, as I see it.

Purgatory lessens the real outcome of Christ's victory in Romans 5:18,19 for all mankind.

Not imo

Now I am not saying that we can do whatever we want and sin all we want and there is no discipline for such a life. There surely is.

Does that lessen Christ's victory? Same answer for purgatory.

Christ died for our sins. He did not die to keep manking from very needful loving correction. But purgatory? No, I don't think so.

For me RC looks like it has mixed ET with a little UR.
The hell part is pure pagan. (eternal and real fire)
Now replace the real fire in the purgatory with a spiritual fire. Sounds a bit like God being a refinery and fullers soap.
And then it suddenly isn't very unlike a UR correction....?

Just a thought.

[Tony N]

Catholics believe Purgatory is a place just above Hell and is a place for the departed souls who did not commit really bad sins (mortal sins) but committed venial sins.

These poor souls can get prayed out of Purgatory by the prayers of the saints or by special Mass. Of course the mass costs money so you have to cough up enough money if you want your soul friend get a pass out of Purgatory a little earlier. Of course no one really knows when they get out so you could keep giving loads of money to the RCC to have more and more masses given for your poor departed loved one thinking he/she is still "down there." I know, I used to be Catholic.

Also, when people are physically dead, they are d-e-a-d. The bible says the dead know nothing.

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen where you are going."

So how can these dead people learn anything while in this mythical place called Purgatory? They can't.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

[Tony N]

 "Another remarkable phenomena is worth noting in this
connection. It is the tendency for those who deal much with the
original to become "heretics" on this question. The church has
corrupted the truth so that a vital contact with the very original
is sure to lead to "heresy." In truth such a study of the original
has become almost necessary in order to recover this truth. Thus
it was with Martin Luther, soon after his escape from the
thralldom of Rome. In his "Defense" he says: "I permit the Pope to
make articles of faith for himself and his faithful: such as that
the soul is the substantial form of the human body, that the soul
is {immortal}, with all those monstrous opinions to be found in
the Roman dunghill of decretals."

     "But even before his day our own martyr whose life and death
were devoted to truth, writes to Sir Thomas Moore: "In putting
departed souls in heaven, hell and purgatory, you destroy the
arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection. What
God doth with them, that shall we know when we come to them. The
true faith putteth the resurrection, which we be warned to look
for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put
that souls did ever live. And the Pope

p36                                 Tyndale and Luther's Testimony

joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ, and the fleshly doctrine
of philosophers together--things so contrary that they cannot
agree. And because the fleshly-minded Pope, consenteth unto
heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scriptures to
establish it. If the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not
in good case as the angels be and then what cause of the
resurrection?" (Unsearchable Riches, vol.6 pp.35,36)

[Cardinal]

  One problem with that.....

Mathew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

  Did they come down from heaven so they could be in their bodies to resurrect?
David said the Lord would not suffer his soul to STAY in "hell".

And if you're going to say heaven wasn't "open" until Jesus died, then God is a respecter of persons, because Elijah and Moses were seen in glory with Him, after Elijah was seen going up in the whirlwind, which was the Spirit of Christ that caught him up. And then there's Enoch, who walked with God and was no more.

I could go a lot deeper here, but suffice it to say, the Jews believed in a type of "purgatory" for a good reason. Blessings....

[Tony N]

One problem with that.....

Mathew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

  Did they come down from heaven so they could be in their bodies to resurrect?
David said the Lord would not suffer his soul to STAY in "hell".

Dear Cardinal, this is what David said:
Psa 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.
Though David said that, it was actually referring to Christ:

Act 2:27 For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay."

because Peter said that David's tomb was still with them in Acts 2:29. So David was acquainted with decay but Christ was not. So the decaying of the soul has to do with the whole person in this instance.

No, no one was in heaven and came down to re-inhabit their bodies. The Bible clearly states:

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

And if you're going to say heaven wasn't "open" until Jesus died, then God is a respecter of persons, because Elijah and Moses were seen in glory with Him, after Elijah was seen going up in the whirlwind, which was the Spirit of Christ that caught him up. And then there's Enoch, who walked with God and was no more.

Dear Cardinal, when they saw Moses and Elijah and Jesus, it was a vision they all saw:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

Here is an excellent article on Enoch and Elijah
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/EnochAndElijah.html

I could go a lot deeper here, but suffice it to say, the Jews believed in a type of "purgatory" for a good reason. Blessings....

And maybe "they by their traditions made the word of God of none effect.

[Andromeda_Organa]

this reminds me of why there's no Catholics in my galaxy. 

[Cardinal]

  Tony, I've been gone all day, but I will eventually get back to you.....

[Nathan]

One problem with that.....

Mathew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

  Did they come down from heaven so they could be in their bodies to resurrect?
David said the Lord would not suffer his soul to STAY in "hell".

Dear Cardinal, this is what David said:
Psa 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.
Though David said that, it was actually referring to Christ:

Act 2:27 For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay."

because Peter said that David's tomb was still with them in Acts 2:29. So David was acquainted with decay but Christ was not. So the decaying of the soul has to do with the whole person in this instance.

No, no one was in heaven and came down to re-inhabit their bodies. The Bible clearly states:

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

And if you're going to say heaven wasn't "open" until Jesus died, then God is a respecter of persons, because Elijah and Moses were seen in glory with Him, after Elijah was seen going up in the whirlwind, which was the Spirit of Christ that caught him up. And then there's Enoch, who walked with God and was no more.

Dear Cardinal, when they saw Moses and Elijah and Jesus, it was a vision they all saw:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

Here is an excellent article on Enoch and Elijah
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/EnochAndElijah.html

I could go a lot deeper here, but suffice it to say, the Jews believed in a type of "purgatory" for a good reason. Blessings....

And maybe "they by their traditions made the word of God of none effect.

I'm still not buying the vision aspect of this . . . at least not from the  standpoint that it didn't happen at all . .it was just their imaginations . . . I disagree.  I believe it did happen . .it was a vision because what they saw was not in their realm, but in the spirit realm . .so that would make it a vision . . .but no one has tried to explain "why" Jesus had them see the goings on in the first place . .what was the purpose of that?  Why Moses?  Why Elijah?  Where was Abraham?  He was the one the original covenant was made with . . .Why not David?  Beings that there were several refrences of Jesus being in the line of David?

[peacemaker]

One problem with that.....

Mathew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

  Did they come down from heaven so they could be in their bodies to resurrect?
David said the Lord would not suffer his soul to STAY in "hell".

Dear Cardinal, this is what David said:
Psa 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.
Though David said that, it was actually referring to Christ:

Act 2:27 For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay."

because Peter said that David's tomb was still with them in Acts 2:29. So David was acquainted with decay but Christ was not. So the decaying of the soul has to do with the whole person in this instance.

No, no one was in heaven and came down to re-inhabit their bodies. The Bible clearly states:

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

And if you're going to say heaven wasn't "open" until Jesus died, then God is a respecter of persons, because Elijah and Moses were seen in glory with Him, after Elijah was seen going up in the whirlwind, which was the Spirit of Christ that caught him up. And then there's Enoch, who walked with God and was no more.

Dear Cardinal, when they saw Moses and Elijah and Jesus, it was a vision they all saw:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

Here is an excellent article on Enoch and Elijah
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/EnochAndElijah.html

I could go a lot deeper here, but suffice it to say, the Jews believed in a type of "purgatory" for a good reason. Blessings....

And maybe "they by their traditions made the word of God of none effect.

I'm still not buying the vision aspect of this . . . at least not from the  standpoint that it didn't happen at all . .it was just their imaginations . . . I disagree.  I believe it did happen . .it was a vision because what they saw was not in their realm, but in the spirit realm . .so that would make it a vision . . .but no one has tried to explain "why" Jesus had them see the goings on in the first place . .what was the purpose of that?  Why Moses?  Why Elijah?  Where was Abraham?  He was the one the original covenant was made with . . .Why not David?  Beings that there were several refrences of Jesus being in the line of David?

I find it interesting that Moses (the law), and Elijah (the prophets), were present during the "Transfiguration."
Subsequently, they were laid to rest.

"Like a caterpillar that is transformed into a butterfly; we are risen from the dead."

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

  Don't have time for a long post right now, but it was Moses and Elijah because it was given to them to sit on His right hand and on His left, by the Father. And it was a picture of Passover; the Lamb, the bread (law/Moses/) and the wine (Spirit/prophets) were present. Blessings...

[sven]

i think its 2 Maccabees 12:43-45 but i think it doesn't really teach purgatory, it seems to me prayers for the dead are linked with the belief of a resurection here, not an afterlive right after death.

And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:  For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. (KJV)

But, wasn't Purgatory actually originally taught in BC Judaism?

the Books of the Maccabees are ancient Jewish literature

[Tony N]

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

Either you believe the above or you don't. I believe it. If you believe Moses and Elijah were literally alive on the mount with Jesus and the three then you don't believe John 3:13.

The verse below is about the first to be made alive or vivified:
1Co 15:23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;"

If you believe Moses was literally alive with Elijah on that mount then you cannot believe Jesus was the firstfruit of that. Moses beat him to the punch. It should be written "Moses is the firstfruit of vivification."

[WhiteWings]

Tony,

Your reasoning is simple and IMO correct.
Surely you are not the first one that ever read those verses. It makes me wonder how the contrary is still be thaught? Perhaps because of this the Lazarus and Rich men parable.
I've seen it taken literally on several sites.
Before Jesus hell was split up into 2 parts as the parable describes.
The people in both parts where resurrected. But neither of them where in heaven.
After Jesus died the paradise part got transfered to heaven.

[Nathan]

What if your rendition is inaccurate?  Ever read hebrews 11?  And then the first verse of Hebrws 12?  Not only are they alive (spirtually). . .but you're surrounded by them.

[Tony N]

What if my rendition is accurate? 

Heb 12:1 Surely, in consequence, then, we also, having so vast a cloud of witnesses encompassing us, putting off every impediment and the popular sin, may be racing with endurance the contest lying before us,

The above verse is not talking about dead saints who are somehow alive in some spirit realm surrounding the believers of that day.

The writer of Hebrews just wrote concerning the witnesses to faith. Now the writer is talking about being surrounded by the tens of thousands of witnesses to faith in Israel who are still alive, and, in consequence of those witnesses are putting off every impediment and the popular sin and are racing . . . .

[Brian]

Brian

Also, when I hear the subject of Purgatory being brought up by fundamental apologists,
they say this is a purely Catholic invention based on a single verse in the apocraful  book of Maccabees

Please quote that verse.

Good grief, how should I know?
But according to a piecemeal Google search, it's supposed to be 2 Maccabees 39-46, I guess.

[Brian]

I was just wondering if there were any former Catholics out there who were familiar with this dichotomy of the RC church. It's according to them the only true church. You must confess your sins to a RC priest to be absolved etc, etc. They were from what I gather, supposedly the inventors of ET starting in the 3rd century school of theology in Carthage.
But then there's this seemingly 180 degree spin where priests and popes are apparently touting not just universalism, but unitarianism as well. What John MacArthur described as being within the fabric of Catholicism for centuries. Needless to say, it's a real brain bender of a dichotomy. RC doctrine diametrically opposed to RC doctrine regarding salvation and hell.

[jabcat]

But then there's this seemingly 180 degree spin where priests and popes are apparently touting not just universalism, but unitarianism as well. What John MacArthur described as being within the fabric of Catholicism for centuries. Needless to say, it's a real brain bender of a dichotomy. RC doctrine diametrically opposed to RC doctrine regarding salvation and hell.

My first reaction to this is admittedly a little fearful (you're not a priest are you Brian, I guess I just confessed).  Anyway, my thought is, "if the RCs start touting UR, and they're the folks highly responsible for the whole ET mess, PLUS they are suspiciously/unfavorably looked upon by Protestants (in general)....what does that do to the perception of the UR message"?  Like it could get any worse  .    UNLESS, it's a move of God, starting to "break the ranks".  Then no fear, right?   Hmmmmm....

[Doc]

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

Either you believe the above or you don't. I believe it. If you believe Moses and Elijah were literally alive on the mount with Jesus and the three then you don't believe John 3:13.

The verse below is about the first to be made alive or vivified:
1Co 15:23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;"

If you believe Moses was literally alive with Elijah on that mount then you cannot believe Jesus was the firstfruit of that. Moses beat him to the punch. It should be written "Moses is the firstfruit of vivification."

What if you're misreading John 3:13? Which heaven would this be? Paul was caught up into the "third heaven" at one point. Perhaps Moses and Elijah are not "in" heaven, or not in the "highest heaven" yet (since there seems to be more than one.) I think perhaps you may just be assuming a little too much about the face-value reading of that verse. Regardless of whether Moses was literally alive with Elijah there, their appearance there does not qualify them as the "firstfruit of vivification" 

[WhiteWings]

RCC moving towards UR?
Last thing I read they are moving away from it.
The previous pope viewed hell as something doomy. No fire but separation from God.
The current pope believes in hellfire.

My parents where raised RCC. And indeed they had to confess weekly.
I actually made them lie more....
They made up little sins because they had to confess something.
The 'bigger' sins are never confessed 

[Tony N]

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

Either you believe the above or you don't. I believe it. If you believe Moses and Elijah were literally alive on the mount with Jesus and the three then you don't believe John 3:13.

The verse below is about the first to be made alive or vivified:
1Co 15:23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;"

If you believe Moses was literally alive with Elijah on that mount then you cannot believe Jesus was the firstfruit of that. Moses beat him to the punch. It should be written "Moses is the firstfruit of vivification."

What if you're misreading John 3:13?

What if I'm not?

Which heaven would this be?

The heaven He went to. The heaven He taught His disciples prayed about in which the Father was, where Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in flesh and bones.

Paul was caught up into the "third heaven" at one point. Perhaps Moses and Elijah are not "in" heaven, or not in the "highest heaven" yet (since there seems to be more than one.) I think perhaps you may just be assuming a little too much about the face-value reading of that verse.

They are neither in heaven nor in hell. They are dead. I assume nothing.


 

Regardless of whether Moses was literally alive with Elijah there, their appearance there does not qualify them as the "firstfruit of vivification" 

Yes it does.