Author Topic: Are we supposed to "see" further than 1Corinthians 15:28 in this life time?  (Read 3044 times)

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martincisneros

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I'm not asking if anyone else has/hasn't, but does anyone else have the sense that though Paul raised the bar on the level of teaching in the early Church, yet is the calling still "beyond the veil?" - regardless of however far Paul and others in the New Testament had pushed that veil in our behalf.

Might the New Testament be saying things beyond 1Corinthians 15:28 and our eyes are currently closed to it by our traditions about whatever texts might be involved?

I know that we're a Body in Christ, but are there limits on particular believers in relation and in proportion to where the rest of the Body is at?

julzabro2

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I think the Way IS there but the veil, on many, still exists. It HAS been lifted but not all see it that way yet. Aren't we waiting for the fullness to come in....still?

Offline Cardinal

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 :cloud9: Yes, the calling is beyond the veil......yes, our eyes have been closed to God knows how much blinded by the traditions of men we soaked up either knowingly or unknowingly........and I think there were limits because it was not the 7th day, but those limits are being/have been removed, we're just not fully aware of it yet. My  :2c: based on what He's shown me in the last year, especially........
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline 97531

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To me the unveiling is a process not an event.

Only Paul had the scales experience but he was rather blinded by the truth and later his sight was restored.  Even Paul made mistakes which he freely admits.  His unveiling too was a process.

They say, life's a journey, enjoy the ride, no quantum leaps here I am afraid.

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julzabro2

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Excellent, SeekerSA, I agree! I'm wondering, though, does there come a point when everyone finally SEES completely or is the unveiling, as you said, a process within each one of us always.

Aren't we supposed to wait for Him?....that's what I never truly understood. We're waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in.....so when does that happen or is it, merely, another way of explaining this individual process?

Offline 97531

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Excellent, SeekerSA, I agree! I'm wondering, though, does there come a point when everyone finally SEES completely or is the unveiling, as you said, a process within each one of us always.

Its a process culminating in our natural death, hence the elders understand more.  Note I said understand.  I cannot see anyone can claim to have arrived, at least I have not spoken with dead folk recently, blind [unseeing] yes but no dead.

Dan 12:3-4  And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky; and those who turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars forever and ever. 4  But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased[/u].

Aren't we supposed to wait for Him?....that's what I never truly understood.

Waiting is good but so too is seeking. 

Waiting

Luk 12:34-37  For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 35  Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning. 36  And you yourselves be like men who wait for their lord, whenever he shall return from the wedding, so that when he comes and knocks, they may open to him immediately. 37  Blessed are those servants whom the lord will find watching when he comes. Truly I say to you that he shall gird himself and make them recline; and coming up he will serve them.

Seeking

Mat 7:7-8  Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you. 8  For each one who asks receives; and he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened.

We're waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in.....so when does that happen or is it, merely, another way of explaining this individual process?

I think you summed it up quite nicely.

Blessings
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julzabro2

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SeekerSa,

You said, "Its a process culminating in our natural death, hence the elders understand more.  Note I said understand.  I cannot see anyone can claim to have arrived, at least I have not spoken with dead folk recently, blind [unseeing] yes but no dead."

But don't we "arrive" once we believe? I'm not saying we come to FULL knowledge but there has to be a point...while here...that we can say, "we KNOW Him...we HAVE the mind of Christ", right? Or are you suggesting that only after we die physically can we say that we, truly, know Him? I thought the idea was to know Him...while here. I thought that's why, if we boast, it's only because we KNOW Him.
 
Do any of us become elders...while here?

Offline 97531

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But don't we "arrive" once we believe? I'm not saying we come to FULL knowledge but there has to be a point...while here...that we can say, "we KNOW Him...we HAVE the mind of Christ", right?

It starts with the re-birth, believing is knowing Him rather than the prebirth knowing of Him.  I dearly seek to have the mind of Christ, and that is part of the journey experience we are all on.

Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

Joh 15:26  And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me. It is clear


What we get is the Holy Spirit, and He teaches and reveals Christ to us.  At some point in the journey we undoubtedly know yet we desire to know Him more and seek even deeper and that is good.

Or are you suggesting that only after we die physically can we say that we, truly, know Him? I thought the idea was to know Him...while here. I thought that's why, if we boast, it's only because we KNOW Him.

We know Him yes, and we can boast of that fact, again full knowledge will only be gained at death, then all the questions will be answered in a blink of an eye.  It is like life, you never stop learning. This CEV translation puts it nicely

1Co 13:9-12  We don't know everything, and our prophecies are not complete. 10  But what is perfect will someday appear, and what isn't perfect will then disappear. 11  When we were children, we thought and reasoned as children do. But when we grew up, we quit our childish ways. 12  Now all we can see of God is like a cloudy picture in a mirror. Later we will see him face to face. We don't know everything, but then we will, just as God completely understands us. (CEV)

Do any of us become elders...while here?

Not elders in the sense of Revelation but elders yes by virtue of being longer in the walk, I am not an elder, although by now I should be.  Elder I may be to you but there are others here who are elders to me too.  I discern elders in the way they share with others, something that comes from being on the road awhile.  Again others are longer on the road than me but are still more confused than what I am (not implying anyone here btw, just generally speaking)

I am finding it difficult to put into words my understanding, I trust you can read the white.  I share only what my current understanding is and it can change and/or mature, I am open to that.

The Lord is laying scripture on my heart which I quote, don't have a recipe book like this question = this answer, I totally rely on the Holy Spirit.  But ask away, I also learn and am enriched by dialogue.

Blessings
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 10:27:26 PM by SeekerSA »
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julzabro2

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Thank you, SeekerSA! That was very edifying!  :thumbsup:

I guess I get confused because maybe I'm trying to be too technical.

I was looking at this passage thinking that once we believe and get the Holy Spirit, you HAVE the mind of Christ...and, surely, we do....at that point. However, it doesn't mean that we have reached perfection or even eldership...it just means we have the Way/the Holy Ghost. We were breathed on when we believed but the Holy Ghost comes in His own time.

1 Cor 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?"[e] But we have the mind of Christ.


Offline Redlettervoice

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Martin, I KNOW there is a "realm" beyond the "church" realm.  The "church" realm is temporal.
It is seen. Used by God to bring us "to" the Kingdom of God. There is an UNSEEN Realm, flesh and blood cannot inherit.  It is all spoken of in Hebrews 9.
You will see there it speaks of two veils.  And something laid behind the "second" veil that is SECRET.
God is able when He wills and how He wills to carry you or I in and out of that realm, but the ONLY WAY
into it is by laying down the first! He that overcometh, shall "go out" no more.  As long as the first realm stands, it is not "manifest" .......it is the
KINGDOM of God, always has been, always will be. There has never anything unlike God been in it, never
will be, it is GOD"s kingdom. Prepared for us, before the foundtion of the world!  We are all called to this
high calling but few are chosen. I honestly believe that when the last "child" who is called the MANchild
is fully born, He will enter.......and that is when one can ask what they will and it shall be done.
NO ifs, ands, buts.  God is so much bigger than we could ever imagine and all of HIS promises YEA and
AMEN ....there are "children" and they are born to one called Eve til all the "deception" is swallowed up,
I am not sure that we can understand all this at once, neither does God intend us to, "I have many things
to tell you, said Jesus, but you can't bear them now!" But occasionally, He peeks out the lattice, and
we catch a glimpse before He has time to run back in behind the veil. ha  S of S. "I saw HIM, His hand
was on the doorknob, and myrrh dripped from my hands........that myrrh being "death to self" .......
I sought HIM whom my soul loveth and I know that His BED is GREEN, full of LIFE! The "watchmen" caught
me ........oh! oh! .........I was out there in the "broad way" and as Paul, I heard a VOICE saying to me,
"Find ye the street called STRAIGHT" ........STRAIGHT and NARROW! Few there be that in shoe leather
that find it.........tho John saw a multitude on the other side.

martincisneros

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I don't mean to seem unappreciative of all of the areas of liberty that I've grown into, and the indepth knowledge of the next several ages of grace that the Lord's given me.  I know who I am, why I am, why I'm here, where I've come from, where I'm going, how I'm going there, and what'll be there when I get there.  But as I said on the L. Ray Smith thread a moment ago about spiritual growth, I'm in a bit of an advanced juvenile stage.  And I'm HONESTLY bored to tears with nearly all of it.  All of it.  And I've double checked my "know" and it's links to my "do."  And I'm applying everything that I know.  And the Presence of God is SOOO RICH in my life right now.  But I'm still BORED.  Seriously BORED.

Been there, done that; seen that, etc., et. al.

martincisneros

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I'm a senior member now?  COOOOLNESSSS!!!!!

And yes, you just heard a 32.5 year old say that.

martincisneros

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I'm going to go and pray about going to the mall, a Christian bookstore, or anywhere else and causing a little bit of trouble today.  The life's blood of the Church is evangelism and discipleship.  Maybe pulling a St. Paul in going overboard on a few things will get me outta this rut.

martincisneros

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 :cloud9: I'M SITTING HERE KINDA LAUGHING AT MYSELF FOR HAVING STARTED THIS THREAD A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO. WHY DO ANY OF US EVER GO THROUGH THOSE GROWTH PAINS WHEN WE'RE FAR ENOUGH ALONG WHERE NOTHING REALLY COMES OF 'EM THAT'S ALL OF THAT REMARKABLE?  IS IT SIMPLY A DEEPENING OF OUR ROOTS AFTER A WHILE OR WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?? :cloud9:


 :cloud9: Sorry for the appearance of shouting.  Just sorta trying to distinguish this comment from my last two or three to this thread, as indeed being a new post on an old thread. :cloud9:

gatheredfragments

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WHY DO ANY OF US EVER GO THROUGH THOSE GROWTH PAINS WHEN WE'RE FAR ENOUGH ALONG WHERE NOTHING REALLY COMES OF 'EM THAT'S ALL OF THAT REMARKABLE?  IS IT SIMPLY A DEEPENING OF OUR ROOTS AFTER A WHILE OR WHAT'S UP WITH THAT??

Romans 7

ah...human existence...
the desire for gratification...