Author Topic: Are we really going to live forever?  (Read 1216 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aleax

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • Gender: Male
  • Dear God, I have a problem, it's Me.
    • Is Hell eternal? Or will God's plan fail?
Are we really going to live forever?
« on: August 15, 2011, 12:12:16 PM »
I've come to understand eternity is not time, but place.
Eternity is where God resides (Isaiah 57:15).
Before He created time God was all in Himself.
After the consummation all people will reside in eternity together.
But does it say anywhere in the Bible everyone's going to live forever in eternity?
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 01:23:12 PM »
1 Cor 15:51-56
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

"immortality"
G110
ἀθανασία
athanasia
ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.

John 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"



Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 01:34:22 PM »
Eternity doesn't exist outside of time. The Bible says He's eternal. He's not. His max age is the age of the universe. No I'm not saying He didn't always exist. Bit hard to explain because all words are time related.
It has to do with dimensions. With more than the 4 we know it's possible to stand outside time. There is only "now" and even that is a time indication.
Being outside of time isn't the same as eternal. imo....

Watch this movie how 3D is experienced in a 2D world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
More dimensions will do the same with time.

Example.

Imagine a narrow tube of billions of miles long. Somewhere near the start of that tube is a tiny window. Water flows trough that tube and you observe it until 14 billion gallons have passed your tiny window.
The water is time flowing by. It just goes in one direction.
People in flatland have 2 dimensions. They only have length and width.
We have 3 dimensions. Length, width, height. We can move forward and backward. Up and down.
We also know time, which usually is called the 4th dimension. But in a way it's 3.5 because we can't move backward in time or even just stand still.
We can just watch the water run through the tube. Constant speed. Always the same direction.
If we assume one gallon of water is a year, we watched 14 billion years.

However at the end of the tube the water flows into a huge lake. That lake is filled with 14 billion gallons of water = TIME
If you stand at the shore of the lake you see 14 billion gallons of water. You see 14 billion years.
You now observe 14 billion years in one look. When you take a boat you go to any point in time.

Or simply image the whole tube is transparent and the water doesn't flow out. You now can observe the whole tube. 14 billion years of time.

So if you walk around in your house you can't just walk between rooms but also the history of rooms. Yet time doesn't exist....
There are (likely) 10 dimensions. That means you are present is all places and time at the same time. Yet you aren't  :mshock:

The above isn't accurate but gives fair impression of the concept.
And even then things are based on how we extrapolate things from our experience. And that could very well be totally wrong  :laughing7:
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:43:05 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 05:47:12 PM »
The answer is yes, Aleax.

We are going to live forever.

We are immortals now.

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2071
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 02:02:35 AM »
I have to say "no". Only God lives forever. The only way I could answer yes is if we really did exist before we became human and I don't think we did.  If everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible then there was a time we didn't exist. Forever means without beginning or end.

CHB

Offline Pierac

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1377
  • Gender: Male
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 03:22:52 AM »
I have to say "no". Only God lives forever. The only way I could answer yes is if we really did exist before we became human and I don't think we did.  If everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible then there was a time we didn't exist. Forever means without beginning or end.

CHB

You are both right and incorrect... perhaps!  :bigGrin:  You are right, in that only God lives forever, as you and I will probably die before Jesus' returns, thus not live forever. :winkgrin: So if one dies like Jesus did... and we eventually will...  We like Jesus we will also need someone to resurrect our soul and body too, just like Jesus! (see... Acts 5:30)   

Now where did you get the idea...  "everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible"  :dontknow:


Paul wrote:
Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18  And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
We must carefully examine both the overall context and the particular phrases before rushing to the conclusion that the apostle is teaching that Jesus the son of God created the heavens and the earth. The overall context must be clearly borne in mind.  Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

The apostle Paul is "giving thanks to the Father" because He "has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light," which is to say that God the Father has "delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" (v. 12-13).  Paul is thus speaking of the new creation that God has effected through His Son Jesus.  He is speaking of things that relate to "redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (v.14) and "the church" (v.18) and how through the Son of the Father God has "reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross" (v.20).



Now if you're still not convinced...   here is our Lord Jesus own commentary on Genesis 1:26.  He will settle this issue for us.

In Matthew 19:4 and Mark 13:19 Jesus tells us… Mat 19:4  He answered, "Have you not read that he(God) who created them from the beginning
made them male and female,


Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

According to Jesus himself the creator God was not "We who made them from the beginning"  but a single person He!  Jesus does not include himself in the Genesis 1 creation of Adam, and
He is also telling us that God (Father) Created all from the beginning.

You have much research ahead of you my friend! Forum rules prevent me from speaking further! So peace, and keep searching... God's speed!

:thumbsup:

Paul


Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 06:37:19 AM »
I've come to understand eternity is not time, but place.
Eternity is where God resides (Isaiah 57:15).
Before He created time God was all in Himself.
After the consummation all people will reside in eternity together.
But does it say anywhere in the Bible everyone's going to live forever in eternity?




2 Corinthians 4:10;
We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.




Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 07:12:08 AM »
 
New International Version (©1984)
while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation (©2007)
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version (©2001)
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

International Standard Version (©2008)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

American King James Version
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

American Standard Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Bible in Basic English
Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

Darby Bible Translation
awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

English Revised Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Webster's Bible Translation
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Savior Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

World English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;

Young's Literal Translation
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
 
 

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 08:16:21 AM »
I have to say "no". Only God lives forever. The only way I could answer yes is if we really did exist before we became human and I don't think we did.  If everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible then there was a time we didn't exist. Forever means without beginning or end.

CHB
Forever is from this forward without an end.
Eternal is from this day forward and backward without an end.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • Gender: Male
  • Dear God, I have a problem, it's Me.
    • Is Hell eternal? Or will God's plan fail?
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 09:54:22 PM »
I could add this thread was (partly) inspired by an article I read some time ago. The author argued that God won't punish anyone in the LOF forever, since there is no point in punishing anyone forever. Further, he also argued no-one will live in Heaven forever either, since there is no point in living forever. He had some verses to support his view, too. I don't agree with him, but I thought it was an interesting view. Universal Annihilation... you don't hear that every day, do you?
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline redhotmagma

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 10:05:38 PM »
the only universal annihilation that will take place is of the earthy man

although...

I've wondered if when God is all in all if we meld back into Him, and a whole new cycle begins.  Will we have individual conciousness then???  but who cares bc you are one with God.  (my earthy man cares, but I don't want his opinion)

Offline Aleax

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • Gender: Male
  • Dear God, I have a problem, it's Me.
    • Is Hell eternal? Or will God's plan fail?
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 10:22:32 PM »
As for a "new cycle"... didn't Origen suggest the Fall of Man might re-happen?
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline redhotmagma

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 10:31:41 PM »
I don't know about that, I just think, well we know our universe had a beginning, and eternity is a long time, God is a creator, He will create

but just as I typed this I realize I'm thinking from a 4D perspective, there is no time outside of space-time, so maybe not

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 10:55:30 PM »
there is no time outside of space-time
I think those mansions are very cramped  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2071
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 01:23:48 AM »
I have to say "no". Only God lives forever. The only way I could answer yes is if we really did exist before we became human and I don't think we did.  If everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible then there was a time we didn't exist. Forever means without beginning or end.

CHB
Forever is from this forward without an end.
Eternal is from this day forward and backward without an end.

 :2c:

WW, In my dictionary forever means eternal which means without beginning or end.

Forever: 1. for eternity; for always; endlessly. 2. always; at all times.

CHB

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 05:37:11 AM »
I have to say "no". Only God lives forever. The only way I could answer yes is if we really did exist before we became human and I don't think we did.  If everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible then there was a time we didn't exist. Forever means without beginning or end.

CHB
Forever is from this forward without an end.
Eternal is from this day forward and backward without an end.

 :2c:

WW, In my dictionary forever means eternal which means without beginning or end.

Forever: 1. for eternity; for always; endlessly. 2. always; at all times.

CHB
Do you think it will really matter after 10,000 years or so? :happygrin:

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.




Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 05:41:10 AM »
I have to say "no". Only God lives forever. The only way I could answer yes is if we really did exist before we became human and I don't think we did.  If everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible then there was a time we didn't exist. Forever means without beginning or end.

CHB
Forever is from this forward without an end.
Eternal is from this day forward and backward without an end.

 :2c:

WW, In my dictionary forever means eternal which means without beginning or end.

Forever: 1. for eternity; for always; endlessly. 2. always; at all times.

CHB
END less means without an end. But what about the beginning?


From now to endless is an infinite number of years forward in time.
From now to eternal is an infinite number of years forward AND backward in time.

Infinite is a strange concept.
You can't have multiples or fractions of infinite.
0.5 x infinite = infinite
9999999 x infinite = infinite

Using that logic:
endless=infinite
eternal=infinite
Therefore endless=eternal :winkgrin:
But we know that God's infinite time started before ours.
So infinite equals infinite AND infinite is larger than infinite. :mblush:
It's a paradox.

So although mathematically endless=eternal it's not the same in a daily and Biblical understanding.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 3557
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 05:49:08 AM »
I have to say "no". Only God lives forever. The only way I could answer yes is if we really did exist before we became human and I don't think we did.  If everything was made by Jesus Christ visible and invisible then there was a time we didn't exist. Forever means without beginning or end.

CHB

My  :2c:
Forever doesn t necessarily mean without beginning or end. God can create something that never ends. It is His prerogative. If God conceives man (For instance Adam from clay and breath-be it symbol or historical fact) he can ordain that man live "forever". We all make many confident statements about "olam" (the unseen) but really we know very little and our logic is flawed by limited perspective. Our little logical framewrks often crumble when exposed to the awesome creativity and unlimited power over time and space that our God wields.

I like ww's allegory of the water very much, yet, the water is finite. It began. It had an end. It is numerically quantified. God cannot be numerically quantified, but in theory, time, man, the universe can all be numerically quantified. When the "anakephalaiomai"(gathering into one Eph 1:10) is complete, maybe then "the 14 billion gallons" of ww's example-including the entire cosmos(the whole creation set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God) and the sum of all the ages- God will be all in all, everything in all of time will have worked together for good for every one who ever was.

I think that which is "eternal" does transcend time to an extent. But, to use an analogy like ww's I would say:

"Time is a sphere with a perimeter that includes all that God has created from the beginning and all that has occurred throughout the ages within the kosmos until the last enemy is subjected. Then time will be done away with along with all rule power and authority".
 
Until that time the sphere is like a ball immersed in endless water. When that time is complete, the skin of ball will dissolve and all will be one in the endless expanse of water, God will be All in All- for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Mortality "swallowed up" by immortality.
 
When we believe, we "pass from death into life". I once saw that whenever a soul turns to God, at that point it is like a matrix explodes into their past, present and future. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life(past) and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever(future)" The past and future meeting in the present for everyone who "calls upon the name of the Lord". All things work together for good to those who love God and are calle according to His purpose"- eventually that will include every being.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Are we really going to live forever?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 06:23:08 AM »
"He answered and said unto me, These be they that have put off the mortal clothing, and put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God: now are they crowned, and receive palms." (2 Esdras 2:45)