Author Topic: Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation  (Read 1071 times)

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Offline Seth

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Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation
« on: June 27, 2014, 07:12:48 AM »
As believers in universal salvation we sometimes quote this passage, that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 4
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


Often times when a believer in limited salvation sees this, the response is: well, yes, Jesus died on the cross to save the world, but only in the sense that he made salvation available to the world. We've heard that a million times. But, when I look at the passage, I am reminded of this:

Romans 5
10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!


Reconciled by death. SAVED by life. God reconciled the world to himself through the Son by the death on the Cross. But man is SAVED from sin by his resurrected LIFE. In other words, Jesus did not die to save the world. He died to reconcile it to God. He was resurrected to save it.

To me that is huge because it changes what they assume being the Savior actually means.

So, to me, when John says that the Father sent his Son to be the savior of the World, John is not talking about the Cross as the past salvation. By saying that, John is confirming that to be the Savior of the World, Jesus must and WILL give the Holy Spirit to EVERYONE.

That's why I quoted the previous verse: "Hereby know we that WE dwell in him (ie now), and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the WORLD (in the consummation of the ages)"

John is saying that God gave the Spirit to dwell within us, but not just us, he will give his spirit to the WHOLE WORLD too, because that is what God sent him to do, to be the SAVIOR (not just the reconciler) of the world.

As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Offline Farlsborough

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Re: Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 11:43:49 AM »
I've been thinking about this recently Seth. I appreciate your understanding; what sprung to my mind was actually that the process of our salvation is guided by Jesus' teachings (i.e. Sermon on the Mount). I assumed his death and resurrection was what reconciled the world to God, but the much more difficult and ongoing task of being saved came about through faith as we learn from the teachings of Jesus. I.e. it never says "saved by his life-after-his-death".

It seems to me from all that I've recently learnt that being saved is the tricky part, the part that will happen "in fire" for all, but for Christians, in this age. This requires both the spirit as you say but also carefully heeding the words of Christ, also given in his "life".

Incidentally, is "being saved" the same as being/being in "the kingdom"? If the latter is God's peculiar people called to be kings and through whom He will achieve His will (i.e. the elect), then it doesn't make much sense that this is the same as "being saved" because if all will eventually saved, all will therefore be "the elect" - and then for what purpose? To whom will this universal "elect" minister? So, surely it is not the same thing.

However, it begs the question, will some be saved yet not be "the elect"? Is it possible that I can die to sin and live with Christ, steadily be saved and sanctified etc. but in fact not rule with Christ in the kingdom age?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 11:48:55 AM by Farlsborough »

Offline Seth

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Re: Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 05:21:57 PM »
Hi Farlsborough,
There is a really interesting parallel to another thing John said.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice (propitiation) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


John is talking about a progression. He died for the sins of the elect, but also for the whole world. But how do we become saved from death, if "to be carnally minded is death?"

"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." Being "in Christ" is what saves from death. So when John says:

1 John 4
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


I think John is using the same pattern of language is with the propitiation scripture: "The Elect has the Holy Spirit, but not only the elect, someday the whole world will have it." Jesus was sent to reconcile AND to save.

So when it says that "in Christ all shall be made alive" that's not just talking about resurrection. It's talking about spiritual life, being "in Christ" a new creature.

Offline sheila

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Re: Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 06:18:40 PM »
....and in the last days, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh.

Offline Seth

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Re: Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 09:26:06 PM »
Yes, everything's eventual.

When I tell someone that Jesus was sent to be the Savior of the world and they defer to the cross as a way to explain that away as a historic event, I just tell them that it's not a reference to the Cross in the first place. Death was for reconciliation. John isn't saying that Jesus was sent only to reconcile the world, but ALSO to save it.

So, if Christ was sent to reconcile the world by his death, was he successful? Yes.
If Christ is now sent to SAVE the world through his life, will he be successful? No? Why would he be successful in reconciling but not saving? He didn't need permission to reconcile. Why would he need cooperation and permission to save?

Then I tell them that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all WILL be made alive" and how that Christ will bring all enemies under his control. And, if all will be made alive "in Christ" that itself testifies to the fact that Jesus was sent to be the Savior of the world since we know how salvation occurs.

Maybe I am just repeating myself but I love how 1 Cor 15 and 1 John 4 work so well together.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 10:33:09 PM »
Some people cannot fathom the seed becomes a shoot, the shoot become a tree, the tree fills the universe :o)

When you try to show them the tree, they fear you are trying to steal their seed.

Except a seed fall into the ground and die it cannot bear fruit like unto itself.

A seed in the chaff has all the dna of the entire tree, it just cannot manifest until it dies.

"If anyone would be my disciple they must take up their cross and come follow me."

The gospel of man refuses to die so that the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ can shine out of the darkness(2 Cor 4:1-5).

So, in a way, the chaff is the carnal man, that must be cracked.....broken so the life of Christ can emerge- manifest.

The full seed is still there within the carnal believer. The life is just bound within because the chaff refuses to break, therefore....


" I will thoroughly purge my threshing floor."   Beat the chaff off, gather the grain in, burn the chaff with unquenchable fire :o)

The word of God pierces the dividing asunder of seed and chaff bone and marrow and all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Watchman Nee wrote a book called "The Release of the Spirit" about how from the time a person is saved God has one primary purpose in their lives, out of which all the fiery trials are purposed to bring us to the"end of the flesh"(self) and into brokeness, meekness, gentleness- all the character of Christ being released so that God has an acceptable offering upon which to rest His Spirit and display His Son in us.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

saintwalee

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Re: Christ as Savior of the World, not only the Propitiation
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2014, 03:33:20 AM »
Romans 5
10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

So many times when we read the Bible, we tend to gloss over and clump things together. Thankfully the Holy Spirit shows us his word and uses the double edged sword to rightly divide the word.

Thank you for sharing this revelation.