Author Topic: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?  (Read 1244 times)

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Offline Farlsborough

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Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« on: June 18, 2014, 01:59:50 PM »
I've been reading through L. Ray Smith's site recently; some great stuff, don't agree with it all but a lot of real gold on there! Was particularly awestruck by the feasts of Unleavened Bread (with the Wave Sheaf), First Fruits and Tabernacles respectively. I was pretty sold on UR already after learning about all the various gehenna/aeon stuff (old hat to you all now!), but to me the symbolism of the feasts is almost the most conclusive of the lot. I mean, we can debate meanings of words, but no one can deny that those things were types and shadows fulfilled in Christ, and what they symbolise seems strikingly clear.

Anyhoo, one of his main ideas seems to be "first the physical, then the spiritual" - how God is creating us in His image, and because God is spirit, L. Ray Smith seems to strongly believe that our physicality is linked with our carnal minds, both of which will be done away with (either at the resurrection or in the judgement/LoF, I can't remember).

This grates with me slightly; it seems an awfully long winded way to do something to create a whole reality only as a means to an end, only to entirely destroy it and save just the purified essence. Like, buying a complicated and expensive coffee machine just to get the smell of fresh coffee in your house! Likewise, the messages regarding resurrection often seem to revolve around sowing seeds; sown perishable, raised imperishable. Yes, our resurrection bodies will be very different, but surely there is continuity there? A seed is different to a tree but there is nevertheless something of the seed in the tree. Given that our creation contains great beauty, that God will be all in all and knowledge of Him will fill the earth like the waters cover the sea, doesn't this suggest physical-and-then-so-much-more, rather than utter destruction of all that is material and only continuation of the spiritual? Didn't the resurrected Christ eat with His disciples specifically to demonstrate that He wasn't just a ghost or some ethereal thing?

And if everything physical is going to be destroyed, how can there even be any meaningful continuity for us between this age and the next? If call concepts of movement, dwelling places, nourishment and so on are done away with for some 6th dimensional craziness, how is any of my earthly experience going to have any bearing, and therefore how can I be in any way the same person?

I have been taught that the idea of our spirits wafting off to a transcendent and ethereal plane when we die is a platonist imposition; that Hebraic tradition is very happy with our physicality and that God can and will redeem creation (in some pretty mind boggling way), not just use it as a scrapbook to be burned when it's served it's purpose.

What think you folks?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2014, 02:35:20 PM »
I've been reading through L. Ray Smith's site recently; some great stuff, don't agree with it all but a lot of real gold on there!
Quite a while ago I visited Ray's site. I only remember his huge Lake of Fire series.


 
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Was particularly awestruck by the feasts of Unleavened Bread (with the Wave Sheaf), First Fruits and Tabernacles respectively. I was pretty sold on UR already after learning about all the various gehenna/aeon stuff (old hat to you all now!), but to me the symbolism of the feasts is almost the most conclusive of the lot. I mean, we can debate meanings of words, but no one can deny that those things were types and shadows fulfilled in Christ, and what they symbolise seems strikingly clear.
:thumbsup:
I fully agree with that. Words are defined by it's use. But if the use isn't understood then the meaning of the word you find in a lexicon is not the meaning God gave it.
Always work from large to small. Feasts (and lots of customs) are the main thing. Verses should be read in that context. Words itself obviously can't be separated from the verse itself. But still many don't follow that order. It brings confusion and false doctrine. Extrapolation always increases errors.
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Anyhoo, one of his main ideas seems to be "first the physical, then the spiritual" - how God is creating us in His image, and because God is spirit, L. Ray Smith seems to strongly believe that our physicality is linked with our carnal minds, both of which will be done away with (either at the resurrection or in the judgement/LoF, I can't remember).

This grates with me slightly; it seems an awfully long winded way to do something to create a whole reality only as a means to an end, only to entirely destroy it and save just the purified essence. Like, buying a complicated and expensive coffee machine just to get the smell of fresh coffee in your house!
God seems to like long winded ways. Why we have this life? Why we have this rotten earth? Why is there sin? I mean God could have created a perfect earth with 7 billion people as holy as Christ Himself. Then there was no sin. Speaking of sin; God hates sin and will eventually destroy sin. But why did He wait 6000 years to do so? I'm just trying to say God often picks the long winded way while He's capable of doing things differently.
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Likewise, the messages regarding resurrection often seem to revolve around sowing seeds; sown perishable, raised imperishable. Yes, our resurrection bodies will be very different, but surely there is continuity there? A seed is different to a tree but there is nevertheless something of the seed in the tree. Given that our creation contains great beauty, that God will be all in all and knowledge of Him will fill the earth like the waters cover the sea, doesn't this suggest physical-and-then-so-much-more, rather than utter destruction of all that is material and only continuation of the spiritual? Didn't the resurrected Christ eat with His disciples specifically to demonstrate that He wasn't just a ghost or some ethereal thing?
A lamb and a lion both eat but that doesn't mean they are the same. Or bad example in this case, but I'm sure you get my point  :winkgrin:
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And if everything physical is going to be destroyed, how can there even be any meaningful continuity for us between this age and the next?
Is that total destruction in really the Bible? Elements melting? That's about pagan philosophy. A new earth? Is that like the monthly new moon?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2014, 04:04:19 PM »
 :cloud9: My  :2c:.....I think it comes down to a case of mistaken identity. We are the planting of the Lord, and there were two trees in the midst of the garden, the carnal mind and the mind of Christ. Because of what Adam and Eve did, we were born into a different reality than what we had at the onset, as man. This is why we now have to be born from above to begin to regain what we lost in the garden.

The problem is, we've had the carnal beastly mind for so long, we THINK it's "us", because it's all we know. As we press into Him, what we lost is being restored. Death is a curse from disobedience, carried out by the carnal mind, which is enmity against God, and thus to be carnally minded is death. But we are promised a new heaven (mind of Christ) and a new earth (glorified body), which is complete restoration of what was lost.

That does not mean we'll all be zombies, He also gave us His "stamp" of uniqueness. Out of 6 billion people on the planet, none have the same fingerprints, and we are all to be an extension of His hand, and an expression of the limitless nature and attributes of God.

He once told me He was not creating "cookie cutter" Christians, that we were not to look at each other to define us and tell us what is "acceptable" to be and do (respect of persons = looking at the flesh instead of the Spirit), but rather to look to Him and He will give us our own unique identity as part of His body. This is why it says our LIFE is HID in Him. Blessings....
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 04:07:21 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2014, 04:13:47 PM »
God made us carnal (in a sense), and the infusion of His Spirit into a lifeless body produced life and consciousness.  God said it was good.  :Peace2:

Consider what happens after the resurrection:  God again infuses His Spirit, not just the "earnest" but the Whole Thing, into a glorified body!  Boy, howdy, think about the life and the consciousness THAT will produce!  :banana:

Truly, our present life and sufferings are not worthy to be compared to what is to come in the age to come... :declare:
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 04:17:19 PM by Lazarus Short »
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline sheila

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2014, 07:29:13 PM »
 we mustn't forget..God is a spirit.......Hosea 13;6...when I fed them they were satisfied......

  when they were satisfied  they become proud..AND FORGOT ME[easy to do in this physical/carnal

  realm/duality]

  SO....I COME UPON THEM LIKE A LION[instead as a shepherd who cares for flock..becomes

as that which preys on sheep] LIKE A LEOPARD I WILL LURK BY THE PATH,LIKE A BEAR ROBBED

 OF HER CUBS I WILL ATTACK THEM AND RIP THEM OPEN. Like a lipn I will devour them; a wild

animal will tell them apart.  [where is your'e king that he may save you where are your'e rulers

 in all your towns[this physical/carnal/fleshly realm]  so in my anger I give you a king and in my wrath I took him away[picture here the image Nebuchaddnezer had in dream  with the stone not
cut out by human hands taking it away in wraath of the Lamb]

   Rev 13;1,2  then I saw a beast coming out of the sea[image men want to worship/physical image

made of carnal men...we want to be like the nations around us..give us a king]  The beast I saw

resembled a leopard,with feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion..the dragon gave the beast

his power and throne and great authority...men worshipped the dragon cause he give the

authority to the beast.

  now,He meets us where we are[stoops that we may be uplifted]  thus the word of God come in

flesh...that we may know Him in our carnality/physical/flesh...realm..and when leaving this realm after

declaring the Father to us..what does he say...I am returning to the Father,and your'e Father

   and preparing a place for us..that where I am you may be...a city not made with human hands

  a spiritual city is a spiritual dwelling place....dwelling in a spiritual form......

   a token..and fullness......you must not imagine the new earth He creates as this same dust

  planet we are familiar with...man/earthling...as newcreature..does not return to it's dust......

    fro the dust ye were taken and unto dust ye shall return..shall not be the manner of the new

earth/man/world..for he is of the spirit substance of God...........the foundations are not dust..but fine

jewels..not 'mere dirt' but the son......He found himself in the form of a servant[man/earthling] that does not remain forever..and

humbled himself.......unless a seed fall to the earth and die it remains alone[but a son remains

in the household forever/heir]

  new earth..as a concept of a dwelling place for the spirit of man....think of religious perecution and

 the fleeing to new world[North America] to dwell free frm religious persecution........

   only this New Creation that God makes for man's spirit[uality] to dwell with Him forever in peace

   is a zillion times better!!!

   hard to put in words...but some of my thoughts about these things

   

Offline Seth

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2014, 07:59:01 PM »
This grates with me slightly; it seems an awfully long winded way to do something to create a whole reality only as a means to an end, only to entirely destroy it and save just the purified essence. Like, buying a complicated and expensive coffee machine just to get the smell of fresh coffee in your house!

Pun intended?  :laughing7:

I guess you don't grate coffee though, but it's close!

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And if everything physical is going to be destroyed, how can there even be any meaningful continuity for us between this age and the next? If call concepts of movement, dwelling places, nourishment and so on are done away with for some 6th dimensional craziness, how is any of my earthly experience going to have any bearing, and therefore how can I be in any way the same person?

I don't personally believe that everything physical will be destroyed necessarily. I really don't know, but I don't believe that is a major message of the Bible, if at all. What I take from the "physical then spiritual" message is a graduation of sorts, a higher level of being. I think people take the "fervent heat" and the dissolving away of the elements from 2 Peter 3 as indication of that, but I believe that's talking about the elements of society. When you look at the usage of "elements" in the rest of the Bible, it's not talking about literal elements as in science, but socio-political and legal elements.

I do believe that sin is connected to the flesh, as I believe Romans 7 demonstrates that. And I believe that when we receive new bodies, that sin will be put away in a complete way, rather than having to deal with temptation now in our weaker bodies.

Though I believe that our bodies will be purely spiritual, I don't take that to mean "ghostlike," like Jacob Marley. God easily manifests in a physical form.


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I have been taught that the idea of our spirits wafting off to a transcendent and ethereal plane when we die is a platonist imposition.

The idea of "spirits wafting" is based on an assumption and TV/movies pick up on that to show the spirit world as partially invisible, and significantly weaker than the physical world. How many times have you seen a movie where the ghost can't speak to the living, giving much more power to the physical than the spiritual. I think that's worldly thinking. The Spirit is far more powerful than the flesh in every way.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 08:22:04 PM by Seth »

Offline sheila

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2014, 08:36:46 PM »
the flesh is weak,but the spirit is strong[by my spirit]  expressly that no flesh shall boast..and all

men shall give the Glory unto God..and realize from whence the 'POWER AND THE GLORY,FOREVER"

  originates...thaat they be in AWE of the Father of Spirits..and know Him who creates them...

 and that we come not of ourselves..or of our will..but His...and that He is sovereign..and that

we can do nothing of ourselves.....but by remaining in Him[spirit] we are victorious in all things.

     the spirit of LOve...and all the fruit.........mercy,long-suffering,pateince..if all had been created

  in perfection without these qualities[mercy,patience long-suffering] they would lack perfection

  for long- suffering mercy/grace and pateince are developed through the  adversarial opposition

  through lack,weakness,.   if no one had ever suffered..where would ercy/grace for the suffering

be....if all where created perfect..where would the pateince ofr comlpetion be.

...think of your own children...the weakness of the infants..so dependant upon you meeting their

 needs...so lacking..can't d a thing for themselves.....the parents pateince,long-suffering daily

mercy exercized unto them from the love in your heart for them.  and the infant also,being

dependant..learns pateince.....it may be a few moments before that feeding,diaper change,cuddling

 etc...and though you protest mightily..you just may not be held immediately.

   the farmer which sowed the seed waits pateintly for the harvest...so,too Our Father waits

 patiently for His sons/daughters maturity.

Offline lomarah

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 11:25:53 PM »
Amen Sheila.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline joeteekay

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2014, 12:16:23 AM »
Short comment for Farlsborough (spelling? - sorry).
I read and listened to most of L. Ray Smiths material.
My comment is that he learn't and understood a lot from his experiences in WWCG and elsewhere. For sure a dedicated man.
I did learn much from his web site. However he was overly certain he was right and was very authoritative IMO. Always asked - show me where I am in error.

I do not agree with some of his stuff, even though many of his followers regard him as having superior knowledge of bible-truths
:winkgrin:
Joe from Ottawa

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2014, 04:24:25 AM »
God made us carnal (in a sense), and the infusion of His Spirit into a lifeless body produced life and consciousness.  God said it was good.  :Peace2:

Consider what happens after the resurrection:  God again infuses His Spirit, not just the "earnest" but the Whole Thing, into a glorified body!  Boy, howdy, think about the life and the consciousness THAT will produce!  :banana:

Truly, our present life and sufferings are not worthy to be compared to what is to come in the age to come... :declare:

  :dsunny:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline sheila

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual, platonist?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2014, 05:43:41 PM »
 BOY! HOWDY! IS RIGHT!!