Author Topic: Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?  (Read 1492 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?
« on: May 07, 2010, 10:20:15 PM »
According to popular Orthodox theology, humans are inherently evil and deserving of hell by no choice of their own.  More liberal theologians dont necessarily believe in Original sin creating moral depravity.  This comes from the belief that when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, that they automatically became evil.  But the tree they ate from was good and evil knowledge.  Plus this would be saying that Adams sin was more Powerful than God creating us in his own image.  But even in our world, there are good things and bad things too. 

Many churches have used "Moral depravity" to justify an overly legalistic system and often cruel ethics.  They use the scripture Isaiah 55:8(His ways are not ours).  But Isaiah 55 is referring to Gods powerful mercy, not some strong punishment.  Yes, that seems pretty true considering how humans are not always so merciful. 

Even every religion in the world has had both good and evil along with Governments, economic systems, cultures and social "isms". 

Most world religions knew that they could not save themselves on their own, and spent time performing sacrifices to their creator. 

Many of the world religions had good things too: Yoga, non-violence, charities to help the poor, soup kitchens, rejection of worldly items, ect.

They also had bad things too: Human sacrifice, belief in unending punishment, the Caste system, legalism, ect.

But it seems like the more zealous preachy people seem more carnal than the not so religious people. 

People left behind "Christianity" because of the strong legalism and the belief in everlasting punishment.

Offline josh

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Re: Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2014, 07:44:21 AM »
by orthodox
do you mean eastern orthodox
or roman catholic orthodoxy

i think romans chapter 1 speaks of how souls came to be sinners individually

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice:
Rom 1:19  Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. His eternal power also and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God or given thanks: but became vain in their thoughts. And their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  For, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
Rom 1:23  And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts and of creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness: to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

HOW THIS WAS I THINK IS THAT  PART OF WHAT THE CHURCH HAS LOST SIGHT OF
FOR THE MOST PART
IS THAT REINCARNATION IS PART OF BIBLICAL SALVATION....

a careful reading of the greek
does not necessarily say that it was with adam's sin
that all humanity became sinners
rather that death passed to  all humanity
and that for the most part or all ...individual human souls were already sinners
oh i thought maybe i was limited by
personal text
i see tho i get 6oo characters here
but what if my character is like infinite :)

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2014, 04:50:46 AM »

a careful reading of the greek
does not necessarily say that it was with adam's sin
that all humanity became sinners
rather that death passed to  all humanity
and that for the most part or all ...individual human souls were already sinners

Somehow, that reminds me of this question:

Are we mortal because we sin?

or

Do we sin because we are mortal?

 :Chinscratch:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline watchman1706

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Re: Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 11:41:03 AM »
your title suggests a question, but your posting seems more like a statement. Are you asking about something you are unsure about?  :banana: :banana: :banana:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 06:09:14 PM »
Legalism is carnal. Religion is worldly. These manifestations of the natural mind imitate, or masquerade as spirituality, but remember the men who crucified Jesus were all pillars of their community.

"Christianity" has become such a broad, generic term that it barely describes faith in Christ any more. Depending what "brand" of Christianity a person supports, their definition of "Christianity" may veer way off the road Jesus described as the narrow path, which in my opinion is love.

The idea that man is born deserving hell, eternal torment, annihilation, or whatever is, in my opininon, ridiculous. There is no hell.Only Sheol, the place of the dead and Gehenna, the garbage incinerator.  Eternal torment never entered the mind of God. For a creator to foreordain annihilation, for a created person, seems a senseless exercise in sadism to me.

" Arent I Wise and Mighty and Inscrutable. I created billions of beings, men, women and orders of angels, to inhabit time! I control every thing. Plan out each destiny so that the great majotiry of them will suffer forever in agony. What a Benevolent God I am- I shall give a small percentage of them eternal life, so that there will be some few who appreciate what they escaped! Oh how they shall love Me!. I will revel in their praise even as I  remind the wicked that their torment has no end, that they were created for destruction, and they deserved before they were born even though I chose them for it and mapped out their paths to eternal pain!"

All of the contortions that you have to go through to justify such a philosophy produce all these intricate creations of man's mind, systematic theology. Yet we who have been set free from that core dilusion often still give all these doctrines and systems of the dead churches way too much respect.

All we can do is love the Lord, love one another, love the people who God brings across our path, and seek to walk in the Spirit and in the process of sanctification.

As we seek the truth it must "play out" in our hearts and "bear witness" in the hearts of others that we are of God. Trying to work it out on the "broad plain"
of organized Christianity and systematic theology is like trying to win the final conflict in the valley of Armegeddo with a popgun full of holy water and a  Pharisee's phylactery for a shield. :o)

Only the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ can clear that valley of combatants.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline marie glen

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Re: Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 06:13:30 PM »
I figure since it's been almost 2000 years of the "good news" being passed down through human hands, and 'the church' made up of humans, that some of the Glory of the message having been lost (misplaced!?) and having picked up some baggage along the way, is not surprising..

Also folks can only be what they perceive their heavenly Father to be.. so...

We all do 'deserve' death.. it being the natural outcome of imperfection as it is opposite to God, who IS Life, surely? and, Perfection (surely?)..How wonderful it will be when only Truth remains!
      :dsunny:


- Does it say no repentance after death? being resurrected still in their sins (2nd Resurrection) during age of Judgment? sure to be weeping and wailing?
- Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
- "Behold I make aLL things new" Rev21:5
- "On every high mountain and hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day ..when the towers fall." Is 30:25
- "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1
- "The lion will eat straw like the ox.. the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7
- "They will sit each under his vine, and under his fig-tree, with none troubling.." Micah 4:4

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Are we necessarily born fully carnal minded?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 09:18:26 AM »
I think its possible the "we all deserve death" doctrine is a construct of religion. If we have a totally free will,(and I am known as a proponent of limited free will:o) then yes, we deserve death. Adam chose, Adan died. If we have no free will but are totally at the disposal of a sovereign God who subjected the creation to futility(chaos, sin, death) in hope- then I am not so sure. The plan of God is not so much about placing blame as it is about transformation. I think telling people, "You deserve to die" is not the same as saying, "You are going to die". Some people do deserve to die, but maybe not all.

If we deserve to die, and God made us, he had to have given us a free will in some measure in order for us to "deserve" it. If God has chosen and planned the path of every person and preordained it, how does anyone "deserve" to die?
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com