Author Topic: Annoying  (Read 2463 times)

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Offline Brian

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Annoying
« on: October 08, 2012, 10:36:18 AM »
I have someone close to me who left Christianity a few years back because he felt the message of Christianity didn't represent who he had come to know God as in his childhood. He had sound orthodox bible teaching up the yenyang and even went to a bible college. Today he decided to attend church with me, and of course the pastor just had to pick that day to give a "fire and brimstone" type sermon. He told me that the pastor's sermon  pretty much typified why he left Christianity.

His reasons are pretty much a universalist's arguments against what's taught about the character of God and the black and white finality of God's judgement. It's not that he's stopped believing in God, he just doesn't believe in what's being taught about God. But he firmly believes that is exactly what Christianity teaches.
That, as I've often read people here saying, that God would have to be worse than Hitler to condemn people in such away, basically because they didn't get it right in the short amount of time they were given to try figuring it out.

Everything he was launching at me about how contradictory and  downright sick about these views about God, kept making me think and say to him, "you'd make a good universalists"  (universal salvation through Christ).

I got to the point a long time ago, where I decided to grin and bear it as far as what's being taught in most churches along these lines and have even become somewhat desensitized I suppose. That I wanted to be in a fellowship, and that since a lot of what is being taught in my church about grace and genuine discipleship is correct in my view, I'd have to abide with the standard view of judgement and punishment because it's practically inescapable.

Anyways, I sent him a link to here. When someone is as bothered by the standard teaching as I am and he is, and you'd think most people would be, you really want to let them in on a simple truth that ends up being some big secret that only a few of us have been made aware of. Nothing will ever be right here on this earth. Even Christianity will always be a huge mess in many ways.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 10:56:23 AM by Brian »
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 06:00:03 PM »
Good post Brian,
Many of us have felt what you have expressed. I know I have.
The desire for fellowship often negates the negatives since despite their ET belief,
many churchgoers are on the same page otherwise.
It's like your best friend believing the lies of his political candidate and you cannot understand
how he could think so differently on one subject, yet be in agreement on so many others.
Believe it or not, your friend has trouble understanding how you can believe the lies your candidate is telling you. Doesn't mean you can't be friends.
My wife is my best friend and we agree on most everything except she is ET to the core and
I am UR to the core. We both love God and have his spirit in us, so what's up with that? (rhetorical)
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 06:15:32 PM »
Good post Brian,
Many of us have felt what you have expressed. I know I have.
The desire for fellowship often negates the negatives since despite their ET belief,
many churchgoers are on the same page otherwise.
It's like your best friend believing the lies of his political candidate and you cannot understand
how he could think so differently on one subject, yet be in agreement on so many others.
Believe it or not, your friend has trouble understanding how you can believe the lies your candidate is telling you. Doesn't mean you can't be friends.
My wife is my best friend and we agree on most everything except she is ET to the core and
I am UR to the core. We both love God and have his spirit in us, so what's up with that? (rhetorical)

Thank you ded2daworld.  So many times these past few weeks I've longed to leave a certain "Christian" group, than someone says something that I believe was a direct message for me from the Lord, or someone shares a Scripture, or...  and perhaps there is someone in that group that the Lord will touch through my words, or, maybe even through my wordless behavior (notice I didn't say "worthless") ...

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 06:22:56 PM »
 :gimmefive:
Never worthless, always for a purpose.
Sometimes wordless is the best reaction
Words can change peoples minds which changes their lives.
But Mother Theresa (a great UR by the way) rarely spoke,
holding and feeding and singing to the dying.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 07:34:45 PM »
Amen. Our actions certainly speak louder than our words, and the spirit in which we act embeds the grace of our words and actions(if indeed we are acting out of grace).

In addition, and I believe we should be led by the Spirit, but we ARE called to be witnesses.

To what?

Why, the true nature of our Lord and His glorious gospel of course! :)

We may not feel prepared scripturally but we should bear witness and get prepared and BE DISPOSED to TESTIFY.

What have we to fear?

If we are castout we are cast out to where our Lord really is!

Simply stating, "I do not believe that is what Jesus and the apostles really taught", and, "That is dead religion and not the true teaching of the Bible and my Lord Jesus", or whatever- is enough. The Holy Spirit will do the rest in time.  Perhaps"Jesus did not die to burn people forever, He died to save ALL, and quote, a verse like, 'If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me'"or, "I did not come to judge the world but to save the world".

No need to engage in protracted arguments, just give testimony from the heart.

This may seem oversimplified to some, but to me it is not complicated. We are just witnesses to the truth. GOD IS THE HEART CHANGER and the EYE OPENER. Only He can empower our words and HE WILL, even if they are rejected and cause for ridicule in the moment, the word of God is powerful and our testimony is the true word of God, HE WILL SAVE ALL.
Peace, John
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Offline Brian

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 10:01:39 AM »
Many people presume that UR caters to the misplaced sentimentality of the believer.
Or that it's a matter of the UR believe creating God in his/her own image.

Stuff like that.

But what it's really only about is God getting what He wants, to His victory and glory.

God wants to be reconciled to 100% all humanity, not a mere 5% of humanity.

My belief is that in the end, God gets what He wants.  :dsunny:
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Brian

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2012, 10:38:25 AM »
My wife is my best friend and we agree on most everything except she is ET to the core and
I am UR to the core. We both love God and have his spirit in us, so what's up with that? (rhetorical)

Wow! That is the most profound thing I've ever read regarding UR's reconciling themselves to ETers. I've seen pain in my pastor's eyes when mentioning ET. He doesn't like it, but he's convinced that the weight of scripture gives him no other choice but to accept it. I can't hold that against him. When it comes to expository Bible teaching and discipleship, I consider him to be 100% spot on, and that's what I'm there for. Along with the first rate fellowship I receive from many dear brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm sure many tears have been shed over ET by those who believe Scripture demands they believe in it.
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Rhodes

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2012, 03:33:36 PM »
I went to buy a pizza Sunday night. The owner is a brother who goes to our old church. Have not seen him for ages as we have been labelled "heretics" in our little town of 5,000.
I was determined to say nothing about anything...but out it came..."God will save all people brother"...
I was promptly told to watch out for false teaching online.
He said "Are you saying no one goes to Hell?"
To which I replied..."You must first define what you mean by hell."
He was incredulous...amazed at how totally deceived I must be, to not believe in ET.
I could not eat the Pizza after that.. :footmouth:
We have been out of what the church calls fellowship for so long.. Don't know a single person who believes like this...I mean a real person with skin on..not a username and an icon. :sigh:
There is a big cost to finding the good news.
But I cannot "un-believe" what He has blessed my heart so much with.

Offline sheila

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2012, 04:50:03 PM »
  It is personally my opinion that some et'ers would more readily accept the salvation of all if

  the 'wrath" side of God"s judgement was correctly discerned/divided...for ex.......they are 'example's" of those

  who go into LOF..which is a total cutting off.

   as Isreal was blinded for a time[cut off]..so too, have many men..in order that the scriptures may be fulfilled.

  arguing that God's 'wrath" is not really wrath...serves to confuse the matter..as far as I see...

   there are indeed vessels of wrath appointed as such and vessels of mercy..at the full discretion

  of God....as He shows forth[manifests] what is unseen

Offline Molly

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 04:54:23 PM »
  It is personally my opinion that some et'ers would more readily accept the salvation of all if

  the 'wrath" side of God"s judgement was correctly discerned/divided...for ex.......they are 'example's" of those

  who go into LOF..which is a total cutting off.

   as Isreal was blinded for a time[cut off]..so too, have many men..in order that the scriptures may be fulfilled.

  arguing that God's 'wrath" is not really wrath...serves to confuse the matter..as far as I see...

   there are indeed vessels of wrath appointed as such and vessels of mercy..at the full discretion

  of God....as He shows forth[manifests] what is unseen

Exactly.  He is a loving God but he is also a righteous God, and it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.   Fear him who can destroy both body and soul.


Isaiah 19:16 In that day the Egyptians will be like women. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the LORD Almighty raises against them.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2012, 05:16:32 AM »
  It is personally my opinion that some et'ers would more readily accept the salvation of all if

  the 'wrath" side of God"s judgement was correctly discerned/divided...for ex.......they are 'example's" of those

  who go into LOF..which is a total cutting off.

   as Isreal was blinded for a time[cut off]..so too, have many men..in order that the scriptures may be fulfilled.

  arguing that God's 'wrath" is not really wrath...serves to confuse the matter..as far as I see...

   there are indeed vessels of wrath appointed as such and vessels of mercy..at the full discretion

  of God....as He shows forth[manifests] what is unseen

Exactly.  He is a loving God but he is also a righteous God, and it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.   Fear him who can destroy both body and soul.


Isaiah 19:16 In that day the Egyptians will be like women. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the LORD Almighty raises against them.

Amen and amen
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2012, 07:55:18 AM »
(The name of this thread reminded me of something . . . have you read The Annoying by Bunny Hinder?)
________________________________________

I wonder if there are two vessels out of the same lump, that is, one for wrath and one for honor; or, is it that out of the lump which was made into a vessel for wrath, that same vessel was remade into a vessel for honor.  The former seems to accord with humanity in the world.  The latter seems to accord with my own experience of being born of Adam, a mortal vessel (mortality being the wrath of God against sin.)  Subsequently, I was born (again) of God and was transformed into a vessel for honorable use in the temple.
________________________________________

They don't like the idea God will abolish death (so there is an end to the second death, which is the lake of fire.)  They really go ballistic when told there is actually no clear quotable statement in the Bible that any human being ever goes to the lake of fire in the first place.  This "Bible fact" is still very surprising to me, though I discovered it some time ago.  It is also something I haven't told many who are already committed to believe in ceaseless torture for ever.  Their deaf rejection to whatever I say is already so total and, to certain things, so hysterical, I wouldn't be very surprised if they'd exhibit behavior consistent with a grand mal seizure when being told such good news.  We can't fulfill Gods command to love our neighbor as our selves that way.

We are told to suffer as though in bonds with those who are in bonds.  I'm sure we'd search for any possible mercy if we thought we were headed to the lake of fire.  This pitchin' a fit is also a sort of sleight of hand to distract from their not having any verse to stand on.  They use this and the arm of the flesh to silence and remove exposure of the truth.

The closest thing to a human in the lake of fire concerns the false prophet, which seems to be a spirit, not a man, when all references to it are checked.  By "the beast" I take to mean the animal impulses of the flesh, "the false prophet" as the religious sentiments of the flesh and "the devil" is what animates the flesh.  Such statements as, "If any was found whose names were not in the book of life they were cast into the lake of fire..." that "if" is the correct translation and it is never answered.  We don't know if any were found.  When it speaks of all liars having their part (not all, not allotment or inheritance, but "part") in the lake of fire, either we could say that includes every human (but Jesus) or by that time all had been cleansed, sanctified and changed so there were then no more liars, because, again how many, if any at all, is never specified in the text.

What I consistently wonder the most at is how sure they are without studying it and they don't even know how to study it.  That is commonly what I attempt to teach them first.  I'm sure there is some good in presenting how reliable the Bible is for faith and doctrine, as many books and sections in books explain.  But, without knowing how to implement the authority of the Bible, it is a broken tool.  That authority can only be exercised by knowing what Scripture does or does not say.  Few humans on their own are capable of such knowledge.  It is through the use of concordances you determine if something is written or not.  With computers and even free programs it can be done at the touch of a few buttons these days.  The rule I eventually discovered was stated by A. E. Knoch something like this:  "Confine your confession of faith to the actual words chosen by God to make His revelation known."
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 09:02:24 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2012, 08:10:54 AM »
reformer said, "The former seems to accord with humanity in the world.  The latter seems to accord with my own experience of being born of Adam, a mortal vessel (mortality being the wrath of God against sin.)  Subsequently, I was born (again) of God and was transformed into a vessel for honorable use in the temple."


This is awesome, awesome, awesome!
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline sheila

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2012, 04:06:27 PM »
 amen!  there you are,my Brother.  you simply Must post here more often.  I so look forward to you

   'offerings"

Offline thinktank

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2012, 01:07:03 AM »
I went to buy a pizza Sunday night. The owner is a brother who goes to our old church. Have not seen him for ages as we have been labelled "heretics" in our little town of 5,000.
I was determined to say nothing about anything...but out it came..."God will save all people brother"...
I was promptly told to watch out for false teaching online.
He said "Are you saying no one goes to Hell?"
To which I replied..."You must first define what you mean by hell."
He was incredulous...amazed at how totally deceived I must be, to not believe in ET.
I could not eat the Pizza after that.. :footmouth:
We have been out of what the church calls fellowship for so long.. Don't know a single person who believes like this...I mean a real person with skin on..not a username and an icon. :sigh:
There is a big cost to finding the good news.
But I cannot "un-believe" what He has blessed my heart so much with.

I;m also surprised by the lack of believers in eternal merciful righteous judgment. It seems a powerful spell has been cast over the church regarding eternal torment.

Offline shawn

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 07:03:03 AM »
But what is God's wrath?  I have a hard time understanding it.  Will God defy His nature of agape love, and step outside of agape love to inflict harm upon a human because he is upset?  IMO, that confuses the subject.  While I believe in God's wrath I believe it's somehow believed that God loses His cool, blows a fuse and wipes about about 1000 people.  Can this be?  I have a hard time believing so.  I think we must take a look at what wrath is...and can be be sourced from love? 


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 10:56:03 AM »
Good point Shawn.
Quote
wipes about about 1000 people
He (indirectly) did so in many OT battles.
But the wrath ends there. God isn't waiting at the other side of the grave with more wrath.

Judgement is like wrath a word that most people see as highly negative.
Judgement most certainly is quite often used in a positive way in the OT.
I didn't check 'wrath' but I think that's not that black and white either.
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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
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Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2012, 04:11:37 PM »
I certainly don't want to hi-jack this thread so if Jab wants to seperate this out into it's own post it won't hurt my feelings a bit.  But, this  is a subject rarely spoken about in these circles because it's much tougher to resolve OT scripture with God being agape love.  I mean there are some graphic passages about the wrath of God.


I read this explanation from an internet site about the wrath of God...

God's wrath is not an embarrassment to Him. He need never be ashamed, like men, for losing His temper. God's wrath is inseparably linked with His glory. God brings glory to Himself when He exercises His wrath.

I don't know about you but none of that rings true to me.  So, God brings glory to Himself (as if he needs to fill some sort of self seeking, self patting on the back behavior) by poping a cork?  Really?

I believe God's wrath, if it is indeed wrath as we understand it, is inseparably linked to His nature which is agape love.  This is my two cents so take it for what it's worth...

First, I believe the OT to be understood from a perspective of man gaining knowledge of God, just as we have gained knowledge of God.  We see that grow throughout the Bible.  When I was inflicted I seen God as mad at me...punishing me.  My early walk was more foggy about the nature of God...and I often seen Him as mad and oppressive.  Something bad happens?  I made God mad.  My understanding of God grew into grace, peace, agape love, forgiveness, UR just as you see it progress in the Bible.  If we try to look at the OT...this statement is fact...then blend it with NT...this statement is fact....it becomes very tough.  But, if we see the Bible as a growing, expanding crescendo of understanding of God's nature...it makes much more sense.

Do, I believe God loses His cool? I believe in the righteous anger of God, based mainly upon Jesus clearing the temple.  I believe God hates anything that seperates His children from his agape love.  I believe it does anger Him.  But, I don't believe God ever inflicts harm...just to inflict harm...or because he loses His cool.  I believe Him to always be under control.  So, even if God does wipe out 1000 people I believe it fits under agape love, mercy and grace.  Sometimes the most merciful thing to do is end the suffering of the wicked through death.

That's just my take...but I would love to hear some other opinions on the matter.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 04:28:24 PM »
I don't know about you but none of that rings true to me.  So, God brings glory to Himself (as if he needs to fill some sort of self seeking, self patting on the back behavior) by poping a cork?  Really?
If God is perfect in each and every way then nothing He does can improve His glory. Something that can be improved isn't perfect by definition.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2012, 04:32:36 PM »
Quote
Do, I believe God loses His cool? I believe in the righteous anger of God, based mainly upon Jesus clearing the temple.  I believe God hates anything that seperates His children from his agape love.  I believe it does anger Him.  But, I don't believe God ever inflicts harm...just to inflict harm...or because he loses His cool.  I believe Him to always be under control.
I think God never in Hi s whole existance was under control. Kept anger under control.
The fact that He needs/wants to supress His own anger means He doesn't agree with His own mental state. Which obviously means His mental state isn't perfect.
So......?
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2012, 04:44:16 PM »
Quote
Do, I believe God loses His cool? I believe in the righteous anger of God, based mainly upon Jesus clearing the temple.  I believe God hates anything that seperates His children from his agape love.  I believe it does anger Him.  But, I don't believe God ever inflicts harm...just to inflict harm...or because he loses His cool.  I believe Him to always be under control.
I think God never in Hi s whole existance was under control. Kept anger under control.
The fact that He needs/wants to supress His own anger means He doesn't agree with His own mental state. Which obviously means His mental state isn't perfect.
So......?
 :dontknow:

Great point.  Being under control would mean there is part of His nature which needs controlled.  That would indicate that there are parts of His personality which are not perfect and are in need of restraint.  I suppose a better way of wording my statement would be God never displays anger or does anything against His nature because He loses His cool.

Offline shawn

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 04:53:11 PM »
I don't know about you but none of that rings true to me.  So, God brings glory to Himself (as if he needs to fill some sort of self seeking, self patting on the back behavior) by poping a cork?  Really?
If God is perfect in each and every way then nothing He does can improve His glory. Something that can be improved isn't perfect by definition.

Exactly.  It's why I have often disagreed with mainstream thinking on giving God glory.  There was a picture painted for me in my early years of faith...and it looked like this...

1) Humans are scum deserving of hellfire.
2) God is perfect and deserving of glory.
3) We scum need to worship God because he deserves and wants His glory...and we somehow aid in that through worship.

That has always struck me as odd.  God who is indeed perfect, agape love, and perfectly glorious needs us to pat Him on the back?  Really is that our belief? 

My starting point is always...God=love.  So, if God wants our worship it's not to edify His perfection for His sake.  Worship humbles and brings about changes in the heart of the worshipper.  It's an avenue for relationship. 

I never understood the other thoughts on this subject.  As if God needs us to tell us He is awesome.   :doh:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 04:54:13 PM »
Agree with the rewording.
The obvious next question is: Can wrath be part of "God IS love"?
Not God acts lovely but is love?
If the answer is no the God knows no wrath. At least not in the vengance way.
A bit like Jesus always used pruning/kolasis and not vengence/torture/timora

So would it be correct to state God's 'wrath' never is to benefit Himself? So no for more glory, moral boost, vengance, etc?
But only as pruning/kolasis component?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2012, 04:59:27 PM »
I don't know about you but none of that rings true to me.  So, God brings glory to Himself (as if he needs to fill some sort of self seeking, self patting on the back behavior) by poping a cork?  Really?
If God is perfect in each and every way then nothing He does can improve His glory. Something that can be improved isn't perfect by definition.

Exactly.  It's why I have often disagreed with mainstream thinking on giving God glory.  There was a picture painted for me in my early years of faith...and it looked like this...

1) Humans are scum deserving of hellfire.
2) God is perfect and deserving of glory.
3) We scum need to worship God because he deserves and wants His glory...and we somehow aid in that through worship.

That has always struck me as odd.  God who is indeed perfect, agape love, and perfectly glorious needs us to pat Him on the back?  Really is that our belief? 

My starting point is always...God=love.  So, if God wants our worship it's not to edify His perfection for His sake.  Worship humbles and brings about changes in the heart of the worshipper.  It's an avenue for relationship. 

I never understood the other thoughts on this subject.  As if God needs us to tell us He is awesome.   :doh:
Still it's very complicated (for me).
Christians, including URs, ste that God wants a family. Feels good about giving/expressing love. But how about those counless eons before He started creating. At a certain point He must have decided being alone can be improved upon.... Or didn't His 'level of satisfaction' change when creating?
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: Annoying
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2012, 06:27:04 PM »
I don't think that God wanting to share Himself with a created family indicates need...or a deficiency.  Could His desire only be an extension of His goodness...a manifestation of His agape love rather than an expression of lack.

We also have a very unclear picture of what God did or didn't do before He created the earth.