Author Topic: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context  (Read 1825 times)

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Offline anti_nietzsche

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an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« on: October 07, 2012, 09:38:51 PM »
Hey there,

the following are some ideas and thoughts that came to me in the last few weeks and I wanted to know what you think of them. I apologize if I am not completely coherent and if this looks sketchy; I am no academic and I am trying to wrap my thoughts about difficult subjects and so this is more something like a dialogue - I hope you can improve what I am saying.

Ok, the first thing I want to talk about is that we need to get away from a legal idea of salvation. The problem is in thinking that christianity leads us into a courtroom and God sits there as our judge. Then, we would have faith in Jesus and make a deal - we give God this faith in Jesus and in turn he grants us freedom.

Instead I believe the whole matter is not about a legality, punishment, reward, etc, instead the whole thing describes something ontological, something that pertains to our whole life and being.

What I mean is this, basically we go by thinking that without faith we cannot get saved. OK. But there is a problem, what about the handicapped, the aborted babies, children who die as sucklings, those who had a stroke and cannot get ministered to anymore, the really mad, those who grieve too much and hence can't trust God, those who lived before Christ, those who lived after Christ but were living far away so no missionaries reached them, those whom the church didn't teach fairly and who couldn't trust the church and its message, etc... what about all these people? They obviously can't trade their faith into salvation.

So it can't be meant this way. Salvation cannot be a legal matter because it could not save everyone, and all of us believe that God wants to save everyone, right? Evidently the vast majority of christians believes that aborted babies and other destitute people are loved by God and so they need grounds of getting saved yet the bible says nothing about it.

I would suggest that the more sensible approach to salvation is not to see it as a legal matter but as an ontological matter. That means, salvation is something that comes to our human existence. Now when a man lies dying in the woods because he ate a poisoned mushroom or something needs salvation. Then another human must come who takes this man and carries him out of the woods and brings him to a hospital in a car or something. The dying man can't do anything in this, it's all up to the kind human who saves this man. It is the same with Christ. We all went into the woods and ate the poisoned mushroom of sin. We all get sick by it and die - and death here doesn't just mean the physical death (though that death is ultimately a result of sin too), it means the COMPLETE phenomenon of death. The death of relationships because of the lack of love, the death of the truth by our disinterest and by our lies, the death of honest property by our thefts, the death of the poor by our lack of charity, and so on. Christ sees us die and comes to us (we find faith), carries us to the hospital (we get baptized), pays for our treatment and supplication (has already happened on the cross) and then ... we live with Christ (we get the salvation of eternal life with God, including salvation from physical life and the promise of a positive afterlife, a life through which we draw closer and closer to Christ).
 
The whole thing is not a legal affair (the criminal esapes punishment), the whole thing is a medical affair and an affair of charity and mercy. Now when the dying man is still conscious he could do things which makes it hard or "impossible" for Christ to save him. For example, he could throw a fit of rage and say I want to die, I hate everyone. But who would do this if his life were in danger and he would realize that he was in TRUE peril? And then, can't Christ influence the man so he would lay still? Anyway, it makes sense for a God who bases his law on love that we would treat Christ in love because after all Jesus Christ is God's own Son. So that is how we get those parts of NT scripture where God chastizes us and sometimes threatens us. We are supposed to honor God, we are supposed to give thanks, we shall not forget the other people who need help, we shall become better people, etc.

But there is no legal affair. Everyone of us is loved by God and it would only be logical to expect the God who is love to save everyone he loves, and if God is love then he certainly loves everyone. The legal affair is something that some inclusive churches have resurrected and they teach it again, but in fact the legal affair has been carried away by Jesus, it is of no concern anymore.

That view in fact isn't so new. The eastern orthodox church has held a similar view for the centuries - they call it the hospital view of salvation, as opposed to the western courtroom view. We are sick with sin, we are not thought of as criminals. Again, if we're all sick (and everyone can see that everyone of us has the sickness of sin) and if the legal view were true, then God would withhold salvation and medical help from everyone who cannot believe in Christ or who could not believe in Christ because of other reasons (like the cases I cited at the beginning of this text). God Himself would be selective, and the whole affair of salvation would be arbitrary. God would save some, without explaining why and what for, and would damn others, without saying why and what for. But instead the orthodox think the bible describes the human sickness of sin (living outside of God's will and love) and Jesus came to heal us of sin and its spiritual consequences of death (like I described above, the death of relationships, etc).

So really salvation is an ontological thing. We shall live differently than before, and it doesn't primarily mean behaviors but instead it means that we have wholly different premises. The world as we see it in the sciences cannot exist like it does now, forever. Our suns will burn out, there is entropy everywhere. But when we have Christ we have the salvation not just of humans but of the whole universe! This vast universe, a thing of extreme beauty, it will exist forever. This is an example of the ontology of salvation and the ontology of living in faith. Our whole existence is different, we suddenly have many things to hope for now. Our afterlife is secure. We have the Highest Being as our own Father. The son of the LORD died for our salvation. The bible even says that Jesus was raised FOR US - God is not selfish. We can be loving and God notes it and rewards us or helps us, love is not a desperate affair anymore. God gives us the Holy Spirit into our hearts - God makes Himself part of our being.

This reality describes God's real pleasure, being our Father and expressing Himself in all of what He has created. He could not possibly withhold this salvation from anyone - legal affairs don't concern God. We have no right to claim salvation because we're not righteous - God is the King of Salvation. We have no means to escape salvation because God is love - God is Sovereign Love (He has the will to save everyone). There is nothing that anything could do to prevent salvation because God is almighty - He can overcome all obstacles to his salvation, including the devil who loves the legal game. (Which is a joke really, if you think about it, would you allow Hitler to be God's prosecutor in the cases of life and eternal suffering?)

Ok this was it. Please tell me what you think about my thoughts. Thank you for reading.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 11:16:17 PM »
Ok, the first thing I want to talk about is that we need to get away from a legal idea of salvation.
I think it is legal Highly legal. And we greatly benefit.
Jesus life and death was a legal act. Remember one of the last words He spoke on the cross was  "paid in full"
That was a legal term written on a document of debt. All debts cancelled. The debts of sin....





Quote
The problem is in thinking that christianity leads us into a courtroom and God sits there as our judge. Then, we would have faith in Jesus and make a deal - we give God this faith in Jesus and in turn he grants us freedom.

Instead I believe the whole matter is not about a legality, punishment, reward, etc, instead the whole thing describes something ontological, something that pertains to our whole life and being.

I do believe the Bible teaches judgement. I also believe it can be quite nasty for some.
But none of it is  as cruel as literal fire. Not eternal. Not even one second.




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What I mean is this, basically we go by thinking that without faith we cannot get saved. OK. But there is a problem, what about the handicapped, the aborted babies, children who die as sucklings, those who had a stroke and cannot get ministered to anymore, the really mad, those who grieve too much and hence can't trust God, those who lived before Christ, those who lived after Christ but were living far away so no missionaries reached them, those whom the church didn't teach fairly and who couldn't trust the church and its message, etc... what about all these people? They obviously can't trade their faith into salvation.
Nothing to add to that AN.
ET scholar need whole volumes that get around the things you mentioned. All certified advocates of the devil :P



Quote
I would suggest that the more sensible approach to salvation is not to see it as a legal matter but as an ontological matter. That means, salvation is something that comes to our human existence. Now when a man lies dying in the woods because he ate a poisoned mushroom or something needs salvation. Then another human must come who takes this man and carries him out of the woods and brings him to a hospital in a car or something.
Sounds like the Good Shepherd finding that lost sheep.


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The dying man can't do anything in this,
Just like the sheep or the lost coin.

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That view in fact isn't so new. The eastern orthodox church has held a similar view for the centuries - they call it the hospital view of salvation,
(One of) the oldest English translations, Wycliffe, doesn't call Jesus Saviour but Healer....
In Dutch churches that term is still used.

God Himself would be selective, and the whole affair of salvation would be arbitrary. God would save some, without explaining why and what for, and would damn others, without saying why and what for. But instead the orthodox think the bible describes the human sickness of sin (living outside of God's will and love) and Jesus came to heal us of sin and its spiritual consequences of death (like I described above, the death of relationships, etc).

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The world as we see it in the sciences cannot exist like it does now, forever. Our suns will burn out, there is entropy everywhere.
You could add that every chemical/thermal reaction is just one goal. Balance, rest.
I tactically forget to mention such a universe is called a dead universe :-)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 05:10:25 AM »
The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Sacrifice made, "it is finished" [legally paid in full]
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Some given faith to believe now.  All the rest later (I Cor. 15:20 on).   Every knee bows, every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord.
God becomes All in All.

Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline micah7:9

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 06:20:28 AM »
The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Sacrifice made, "it is finished" [legally paid in full]
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Some given faith to believe now.  All the rest later (I Cor. 15:20 on).   Every knee bows, every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord.
God becomes All in All.

 :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 09:06:55 AM »
In order for this thread to be easily accessible I leave this post.  It is so late for me, I'm tired, and all I can handle has been to read some of it.  Too many posts to read can get away from me; but, I've been trying to read mostly whatever's here.  The long term profitableness of that for me is in question.  I may do this less in the future when I spend more time writing and studying in relation to what I'm writing independent of tentmaker.  We are to redeem the time.  Alternatively I recognize as my testimony too, what eaglesway said, about others whose posts on some of the subjects here save him time and effort by doing the research for him.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 06:16:43 PM »
White wings and jabcat are right in what they said.
God is the lawgiver every law given by God is a legal thing.
To eliminate the legality of justice turns God into a kindly old Santa Claus that "winks" at sin.
Sin cannot be tolerated. Every sin is ultimately against God and God alone.
After David committed adultery and then killed the husband who was one of his best and most loyal soldiers,
David exclaimed, "It is against you and you only I have sinned O God."
The wages, or legal payment for sin is death. Jesus paid the price in full for all those that believe now in this life and for all others afterward since "He takes away the sins of the world"
Each will be purified by the fire of the Holy Spirit
For he who did not know or understand, the stripes will be few, for he that knows and understands the stripes will be many. Many is not eternal. "By his stripes we are healed"
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline rosered

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 08:13:43 PM »
  wonderful  ,  everyone  of you :dsunny:
 ded2   made me think of James  4  again ,  and great reminder  Jabcat James  :HeartThrob: 
 
 
 Jam 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline jabcat

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 10:20:15 PM »
 :HeartThrob:
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 10:38:20 AM »
I'm not sure if we can say that sin is always "only against God".

So in the example of David and Bathseba and her husband, I might suggest that David had a flush of pious hypocrisy when he said he only sinned against God. Bathsebas's husband was betrayed and got killed, not God. We must take care to see our responsibility before other humans, not simply always just before God.

The whole hellfire preaching thing is practically a sin against humans. The preachers think they do God a service, but if you look right through it they are manipulating people and throwing them into fear and dread and confusion. Instead of bringing people to the love of God, they sin against them.

About salvation being highly legal, that is something I don't quite agree on. We're not simply prisoners  that received mercy and were released. We have in fact become children of God. In courtroom language, adoption has no place. Neither could there be a substitutionary punishment. Guilt is guilt and debt is debt. I would suggest that God simply doesn't think like that. That is why I think of sin as a sickness and of salvation as a medical thing. We shouldn't be confused about the mosaic law, this law is a historical oddity that only had its place in the ancient Israel. Yes, the 10 commandments are wonderful and we should all look at these commandments to keep them, they are perfect for building a functional society. But inasmuch as they are the law of Moses, they don't play any role. Salvation doesn't bring up the law again and how you failed it and how you are forgiven now, salvation is about the estrangement of man and God and how Jesus solved every problem and took care of every obstacle between us and God. God is not our Judge, He is our Papa.

Basically, we are on the road to becoming Christlike, and Christ didn't think of God as His Judge. God is his beloved dad, and that's what we must think of God too. Legalities don't play a role. I mean, think about it. Suppose you're living with your dad and you watch some porn and dad finds it out and gets mad at you for sinning and nails your elder brother Jesus to a cross so you can stay at home. That doesn't make sense. Really Jesus' sacrifice was all about shedding his blood, it's a mystical thing. The cross tackles everything in this world, its sin, its sickness, yes everything. We are children of a COSMIC salvation. Jesus saved the whole universe with his blood that was spilled and with his death. The cross made the universe ready for renewal, and when Jesus comes back it will get fully renewed, the suns won't burn out, entropy is halted, etc. Basically, when Jesus died on the cross, everyone and everything died as well, it was the end of the world, so to speak. But when Jesus rose to life again the first bits of Eternity started which will one day be complete with Jesus' return and the resurrection of all of us.

Remember this, salvation is cosmic and ontological. Jesus is not some special attorney, He is your elder brother and God is YOUR PAPA! :)

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2012, 05:56:03 PM »
"I'm not sure if we can say that sin is always "only against God"."
Every sin against created humans would be a sin against the creator. If I go to the potter and smash a pot, the creator(potter) is the one sinned against. The creator can remake the pot or reuse the broken pieces another way. I'm not saying don't take responsibility, I'm saying we are ultimately responsible to God. "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord"

The whole hellfire preaching thing is practically a sin against humans. The preachers think they do God a service, but if you look right through it they are manipulating people and throwing them into fear and dread and confusion. Instead of bringing people to the love of God, they sin against them.

Just like Saul went around persecuting and killing Christians before he "saw the light" Saul became Paul after Jesus told Paul that he was persecuting Him. (Jesus)

About salvation being highly legal, that is something I don't quite agree on. We're not simply prisoners  that received mercy and were released. We have in fact become children of God. In courtroom language, adoption has no place. Neither could there be a substitutionary punishment.

But we are prisoners/slaves of sin and Adoption is a legal act, Jesus told the Pharisees, "you are children of your father the devil." Born again is being born of the spirit while everyone is born of the flesh.
Neither could there be a substitutionary punishment. Guilt is guilt and debt is debt.
Wages of sin is death. Jesus died in our place. That is a substitutionary punishment. Jesus had no guiult but he paid our debt. The Lawgiver makes the rules about what can and can't be done.
We shouldn't be confused about the mosaic law, this law is a historical oddity that only had its place in the ancient Israel. Yes, the 10 commandments are wonderful and we should all look at these commandments to keep them, they are perfect for building a functional society. But inasmuch as they are the law of Moses, they don't play any role.
Paul said the law was given so we might know we went wrong. Paul said where there is no law there is no sin. We are no longer underr the law but under grace. The law is not a historical oddity and did not only have it's place in ancient Israel. The law was given for our benefit and Jesus said the law was summed up with, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and body and to love your neighbor as yourself. The 10 commandments are the basis for most of the Laws we have in this world. It is illogical to say the 10 commandments are "...wonderful...we should all...keep them. They are perfect for building a functional society" and then say, "...as they are the law of Moses, they don't play any role."
Salvation doesn't bring up the law again and how you failed it and how you are forgiven now, salvation is about the estrangement of man and God and how Jesus solved every problem and took care of every obstacle between us and God. God is not our Judge, He is our Papa
Salvation can't "bring up the law again" but being free and no longer under from the law is what salvation is. It was sin that kept us seperate from a Holy God and Jesus that paid the price for our reconciliation. God IS our judge... AND our Papa.
Christ didn't think of God as His Judge.
Since Jesus never sinned he didn't need to think of the Father as Judge. (Christ was judged but not for his sins...for ours.)
Suppose you're living with your dad and you watch some porn and dad finds it out and gets mad at you for sinning and nails your elder brother Jesus to a cross so you can stay at home. That doesn't make sense.

Bad analogy. The Father is not your Dad until you are spiritually reborn. When we are "living" with Dad in heaven, there will be no porn or desire for it. "Dad" in our case doesn't arbitrarily nail your elder brother to the cross. In essence, Jesus comes forth and says, "put his sin on me and do to me what you planned for him" so basically it's your fault Jesus was even put there. If we never sinned, Jesus wouldn't have needed to step down from heaven and take our place. You say it doesn't make sense and you're right. "What is man that you care about him O' Lord." God's love for us makes no sense.
Remember this, salvation is cosmic and ontological. Jesus is not some special attorney, He is your elder brother and God is YOUR PAPA! :)
Actually he is our attorney in the sense that He is our "wonderful counselor" and our mediator. "There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.
Not judging, Just curious. Were you, or are you a Mormon? The new testament doesn't use the term elder brother when referring to Jesus and it is typical of the Mormon idioms.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God and in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.
I appreciate your input anti_neitzsche. Good discussion.

"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2012, 05:59:57 PM »
About salvation being highly legal, that is something I don't quite agree on. We're not simply prisoners  that received mercy and were released.
We are prisoners that are released.

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We have in fact become children of God. In courtroom language, adoption has no place.
From the ancient Jewish law as I understand it adoption makes one a 'full child'. So we won't be called Jesus' half brother/sister but brother/sister

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Neither could there be a substitutionary punishment. Guilt is guilt and debt is debt. I would suggest that God simply doesn't think like that.
I disagree with that. The only way to remove sin is by shedding blood.
That's what the law requires. Millions of sheep have been killed for that reason. Those sheep got the death penalty (=punishment) because someone else sinned.
Obviously Jesus was a symbolic sheep that came to fulfill the law.
 
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2012, 09:21:01 PM »
About the law of Moses, as I understand it, was only given to the jews and plays no role in whether someone gets saved or not. You can't earn your salvation through keeping the law and you can't loose your salvation through not keeping the law. I mean, if you would want to keep the law to be righteous, you would have to keep ALL commandments just like they were meant, and that's impossible. So you need a sacrifice. And that's what Jesus provided, you are right, ded2daworld.

No I am not a mormon, I just thought of the parable of the prodigal son. This parable can be read in many ways and sometimes I read it with the "historical" Jesus in mind, ie Jesus while he wandered Israel. He was perfectly righteous but he had a hard life and could never really celebrate, his father didn't have a single little goat for him to make a meal from. I know this reading is a bit off because Jesus never was hating anyone for receiving mercy and love from the Father but it just occured to me yesterday and so I called Jesus the Elder Brother, hahaha. Yeah it's really silly, lol.

Yeah, and the law again, I think about the 10 commandments I would say that 90% of people would say they are good laws, but there are other parts in the law of Moses that are REALLY creepy. For example, there is an account of what had to happen when a woman had an affair. She was supposed to drink dirt from the tabernacle grounds and when she was guilty of adultery she would get sick and loose her baby and then she'd get stoned. That's really crazy, I think, and so I don't even want to read the law. That's why I am grateful that in our day the law has been removed and we don't run our churches and societies with such regulations anymore.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2012, 09:52:07 PM »
About the law of Moses, as I understand it, was only given to the jews and plays no role in whether someone gets saved or not.
I'm not sure about that.
I think living 100% of the time by 100% of the laws brings salvation.
BUT nobody but Jesus was/is able to do so.
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You can't earn your salvation through keeping the law and you can't loose your salvation through not keeping the law.
True, because Jesus bought us (slaves) because of His 100% sinless life and death.
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I mean, if you would want to keep the law to be righteous, you would have to keep ALL commandments just like they were meant, and that's impossible. So you need a sacrifice. And that's what Jesus provided, you are right, ded2daworld.
Agreed.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2012, 11:22:20 AM »
It's my opinion that God made the law so hard and tight because actually He didn't even want us to become super-righteous or perfect. That's what is meant, I think, when Paul writes that God consigned us all under sin. I don't mean God wanted to make us all really evil, just that we would have to live with being imperfect and needy. Please note that the OT prophecies which collect some instances of the sin and punishment theme, do not list a lot of stealing, do not list homosexual offenses, they do not list many instances of the sacrificial laws being broken, etc. They don't even speak much about the jews failing to love God, when love in fact is the greatest commandment. There is also the instance of when that jewish king found the law books in the temple and had to realize how the law had been forgotten in Israel. There didn't seem to be a prophet who spoke about this, it was as if the law didn't even matter that much to God.

What I mean is that the law seems to have been meant as a kind of didactic tool - it shuts everyone's mouth and makes self righteousness impossible. Now certain people take that to mean that they must preach the law to destroy men, because it has these death penalties and all. But not true, God consigns us under sin out of mercy. Just try to imagine how people would be like who kept the mosaic law perfectly. They would HAVE to kill offenders, they would stone women or men who commit adultery or would be homosexual, and so on. It seems God thinks it is better to have sinful children as opposed to having perfectly righteous children. He rather forgives us and makes us righteous by grace and through faith, instead of forcing us to become perfect in a law-abiding righteousness. The law is an obstacle for our ever-present self righteousness. It is not the measure of true justice and righteousness. With that I mean, our modern laws are actually better than the mosaic law. It is good that the death penalty has been abolished in most of Europe. It is good that there is no stoning or cutting off of hands anymore, no torture, no bloody God-Tests.

And so it is actually justified to take the law and go cherry picking in it. There are things in it which are very good (don't kill, don't steal, love your neighbor, the sabbath laws to protect our weekends from greedy corporations, the leaf hut feasts for our kids, the jubilee years, etc), but there are also things in it which, to put it mildly, would only be a burden to us.

I would say it is a weighty point of the entire New Testament that the law cannot bring salvation with God. Spiritually there is no law but love, and though we grow in love in Christ, we always fail and, I think, it is clear that God rather wants loosers than self righteous hypocrites. And following the law simply turns you into a hypocrite, I don't mean the 10 commandments which most people follow, and which are a sound basis for social life, but the rest of the law, and the whole notion of we need to keep all the laws for salvation when in fact salvation comes through faith in God, specifically in Jesus.

Offline sheila

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2012, 06:30:08 PM »
 THE LAW WAS GIVEN TO SHOW US THE UTTER SINFULNESS OF SIN..THAT IT SHOULD KILL

  US THROUGH WHAT GOD GAVE US AS GOOD......IF GOD SAID DON'T EAT BLACK-EYED PEAS..

  I TELL YOU EVIL SPIRITS WOULD START WORKING ON YOU TO GET YOU TO EAT THEM..IN ORDER TO KILL YOU.

  GOD IS SHOWING US THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN HIM AND THE EVIL ONE...

  HE THAT LOVES AND GIVES/SPIRIT AND HE THAT HATES/STEALS/KILLS/SPIRIT

   THE EVIL SPIRIT HAS SLANDERED GOD SO MUCH THAT PEOPLE PREACH TO DOCTRINES

  OF DEMONS AND CLAIM IT IS GOD..EVEN AS THEY KILL YOU AND THINK THEY DO GOD

  A SERVICE....

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: an ontological idea of saving faith in a UR context
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2012, 06:37:30 PM »
THE LAW WAS GIVEN TO SHOW US THE UTTER SINFULNESS OF SIN..THAT IT SHOULD KILL
Didn't man largely ask for those laws themselves?
Sure God made a few laws to live by. God was the king/ruler of the Jews. But the Jews wanted a human kings, judges, priests like all other nations. Right?
And with that truckloads of laws poured in.
 :dunno2:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...