All saved or just all forgiven?

[Livelystone]

Dear Saints of the Kingdom

As much as the doctrines of eternal torment turn many away from a God who would eternally torture people who have never heard of Jesus, so do some of the absurd statements that are found on UR sites deter many members of mainstream theology from ever accepting God's plan than that at some point in time all will be saved and "end up in heaven"

When I say "absurd statements" I am referring to those persons who put every human being on earth including Hitler and OBL upon their natural death to be in heaven as one of those who have been dressed in white robe of righteousness standing before the Throne of God as one of His Saints.

First I believe we need to determine the difference between being justified (saved) or just being forgiven of sin. Then if everyone is "saved" what are they being saved from?...... finally if all are to be saved when do those "get saved" who are "not saved" in this life?

At the Cross Jesus made it plain to His Father that He was interceding for those who crucified Him when He asked His Father to forgive them as He hung on the Cross so we can conclude through Jesus' own words that those who whipped him, spit on Him and pounded the nails into Him were forgiven of their sins........Amen?........... I think so

However were they saved or just forgiven of their sins?

To "be saved" by definition means to be justified so were those who treated our Lord and savior with cruelty and disrespect justified before God in accordance with the scriptures?............ NOT HARDLY!!!

We are justified by faith alone and there is no how and no way that those who crucified Jesus had any faith let alone one drop of righteousness within them. Although by flesh and by law the majority of those present were descendants of Abraham however Abraham was imputed to have righteousness by the seed that is faith that defines the chosen of God rather than those who were descended through the law and by flesh.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

However regarding sin and simple forgiveness all of mankind has been forgiven by God simply because before man sinned there was an act done by God that made man subject to vanity (translated means Adam after this act that was done by God no longer was able to produce and live as he already had before this act was done ) that in turn made Adam's soon to come fall from perfection and being without sin a foregone conclusion. God not only had foreknowledge of Adam's sin but after first creating Adam without sin made his fall into sin all but impossible to be avoided. Adam's sin was intended to happen by God so consequently God has accepted responsibility for Adam and the sin of all of mankind that brought on death and separation for man from His creator.

Ro.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Because God is responsible for man's sin God does forgive all men of sin although He still holds man responsible just as a parent forgives a disobedient child BEFORE administrating a certain measure of discipline. Christians too may be held accountable as God has mercy when he sees fit to have mercy while some may before ultimately receiving mercy in the end He first hardens for His own purpose.

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Consequently we have to ask ourselves when do those who have purposely rejected God throughout their entire lives receive forgiveness and mercy 

Do they get recycled back again and go through the whole life process again until the time comes when God calls them forward........... or do they fulfill a prescribed age of punishment not withheld by the limits of endurance attached to a human body not unlike how Christian parents may choose to discipline their children for a period of time in return for acts done in disobedience.......... personally I go with the latter.

However in addition to forgiveness God has through Jesus Christ provided a way for man in this life just as Jesus said He was in heaven while standing on earth to be restored to the position of honor that Adam held before he sinned (the Garden of Eden was Heaven on Earth). Even though within man sin lives as an organism and a life giving principality (albeit a life predestined for death because of sin) first through forgiveness and then through the innocent life found in the Blood of Jesus that is the atonement for sin (think antidote) and the knowledge contained within the scriptures, we have been given an opportunity to overcome sin and to live Holy as commanded to by Jesus........... That is the high calling of "being saved"

(Unfortunately because teachers of both mainstream and God's Kingdom teach their followers that becoming holy and living without committing sin is impossible so we should  just do the best we can  ...... Consequently because of what they are told by teachers who have yet to be taught the mystery of Godliness and the full power of the Cross, Christians continue to fall short of righteousness and the greater works determined by Jesus and ordained for us before the foundations of the earth were ever formed remain an elusive butterfly)............

Our salvation is something that is worked out day by day that includes fear and trembling in addition to knowing His love as we study the Word and learn obedience to His faith in us (because everything that is not of faith is sin) rather than the prevailing "we are already saved and cannot loose our salvation" attitude that identifies the vast majority of all the various Christian denominations. 

Through the Cross and the Christ Life found first only in the Blood of Jesus that is the Holy Spirit, we have given a way to let go of our failed humanity and partake of the Divine nature of Jesus Christ. Only then will anyone ever stand before a Holy God in Heaven singing hallelujah while AT THE SAME TIME BECOMING HIS OUTSTRETCHED ARM ON EARTH DOING SIGNS AND WONDERS !!!

But as far as those who have only received forgiveness for sins as Jesus said nothing ascends unto heaven that did not first descend from heaven and the spirit of life handed down to us from our earthly parents is an unclean earthly spirit that will never ever be able to enter heaven.

Being saved and gaining entrance into heaven first requires a Holy Spirit from heaven and that is what the free gift of salvation is all about. When a person is "saved" they are first drawn to repentance and only then through the power of God they may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and not the other way around. It is only found through first appearing at the Cross and when after the resurrection remaining in obedience to Jesus Christians may receive the blessing of Pentecost that is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In conclusion while all mankind will receive forgiveness of sins all Christians whom have been given the Holy Spirit are expected by Jesus as He sits waiting for us to overcome sin and join Him in the Holiest of Holies symbolic of the highest heaven and the Throne of God where no sin ever exists.........

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Blessings

Doug


 

[Lupac]

First of all, I don't believe in a literal hell, nor a literal heaven. I also believe God has preordained at what point each person will be cleansed of their sins. We are saved from sin, and the effect of sin, death, not hell. We all have to die because of sin, but Jesus made it possible that we don't stay dead. I also believe that the true Christians, who God has called in this world, who will reign with Christ as kings and priests. Also, if God could convert Saul, a man who did nothing in his life but find early Christians, to put them in jail, and have them murdered. If God can make Paul out of Saul, what do you think he can do with Hitler? That's what the lake of fire is for, cleansing of sin. Also, nobody ever said it would be fun. But Hitler lived a finite life. Even if he did nonstop evil everyday of his fifty six years, how many years will it take before he repents? No one knows, but it's not forever.

For more great lessons, I'd check out Ray Smith, he has more right than he has wrong:

http://bible-truths.com/

However in addition to forgiveness God has through Jesus Christ provided a way for man in this life just as Jesus said He was in heaven while standing on earth to be restored to the position of honor that Adam held before he sinned (the Garden of Eden was Heaven on Earth). Even though within man sin lives as an organism and a life giving principality (albeit a life predestined for death because of sin) first through forgiveness and then through the innocent life found in the Blood of Jesus that is the atonement for sin (think antidote) and the knowledge contained within the scriptures, we have been given an opportunity to overcome sin and to live Holy as commanded to by Jesus........... That is the high calling of "being saved"

This is absolutely not true. Tell me, do you see a "fall of man" anywhere in the scriptures? You know why? Man never "fell" from anything. Man sinned, but didn't fall. Adam and Eve had NO IDEA of how good the garden was, because they knew nothing else. God also didn't "create man in His image", he is "creating man in His image", he's not done yet! Man has to experience all the evils of this world, in order to understand the good. Adam didn't understand anything, that's why God put the tree in the garden, that's why God put the serpent (Or created man with a mind to sin, if you don't believe in the devil.) in the garden. Eve and Adam couldn't have done ANYTHING but sin, that's why God made them.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Jesus Christ is the SAVIOUR of the world, and God WILL have all men saved and come to the knowledge of truth.   

That is what is good and acceptable in the sight of God. 

[Livelystone]

Lupac

Being in heaven is not being in a physical place but being in a righteous relationship with God........... and if someone has not yet told you the righteousness of God is the absence of all sin......... When Adam sinned he got the boot from the Garden of Eden that translated means "fence of God" that within is righteousness and light but without where Adam was sent to was sin and darkness and that my friend was definitely a very significant fall........ so in laymen's terminology and as recorded in the Bible in Isa 14:12 man did fall from heaven and then weakened all of mankind  through the passing of the serpent seed through the lions of man  all the way down unto us through our parents.

Now unless you are caught up in stone age doctrines of  raptures, ET as well as Satan going from good to evil as a fallen angel please understand that man being in heaven just as Jesus said He was in heaven while standing on earth is what was lost by man at the fall and is what will be restored unto man at the restitution of all things spoken of in Acts 3:21......... however the how, when, what and where is all subject for debate

Jesus Christ is the SAVIOUR of the world, and God WILL have all men saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

Paul

 I agree but the point being made is when is that is going to happen ? ........... According to scripture there are those resurrected from death who do not yet have their names written in the book of life but for all man to be saved at some time they are going to have their names written in that book in order to go from darkness unto light. Darkness is never changed to light but light displaces the darkness within. As the Bible says He (Holy Spirit given unto us) is the one who is the light shinning out from a dark place when He comes into our hearts and as this seed that is Christ in us continues to grow and mature until it finally displaces all the darkness within mankind.......... that my brother is the second coming so to speak for lack of better words to describe as when the angels spoke of "this same man" (Jesus not Adam) returning on earth.

BTW Would you not agree that for anyone to believe that those who do not accept Christ in this life are going to go straight to heaven from the end of this life are not only not being realistic but are throwing out a significant part of the scripture?

Blessings

Doug

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul

 I agree but the point being made is when is that is going to happen ?

I think it could be a subject of considerable debate but here are my thoughts.

Salvation for ALL takes place after death because there is no one who escapes the reality of this life simply by saying they believe, no matter what doctrine it is.

........... According to scripture there are those resurrected from death who do not yet have their names written in the book of life but for all man to be saved at some time they are going to have their names written in that book in order to go from darkness unto light.

Well you are appearing to make the distinction between being forgiven and saved,  but what is being forgiven if that is not unto salvation?   What is the point of being forgiven, if you are not saved?

As the Bible says He (Holy Spirit given unto us) is the one who is the light shinning out from a dark place when He comes into our hearts and as this seed that is Christ in us continues to grow and mature until it finally displaces all the darkness within mankind.......... that my brother is the second coming so to speak for lack of better words to describe as when the angels spoke of "this same man" (Jesus not Adam) returning on earth.

No one says that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy spirit,  in phillipians we see that Every Knee bows and Every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the father.  So if someone gets the holy spirit after death, I would think Good news should come to mind.

BTW Would you not agree that for anyone to believe that those who do not accept Christ in this life are going to go straight to heaven from the end of this life are not only not being realistic but are throwing out a significant part of the scripture?

Perhaps, I think if we think heaven is a place we "go to" rather than something we are in the process of becoming we could be seeing everything in the wrong light in the first place.


What exactly are you saying is the fate of the unbelievers in this light, maybe you should be more specific.

[Lupac]

Lupac

Being in heaven is not being in a physical place but being in a righteous relationship with God........... and if someone has not yet told you the righteousness of God is the absence of all sin......... When Adam sinned he got the boot from the Garden of Eden that translated means "fence of God" that within is righteousness and light but without where Adam was sent to was sin and darkness and that my friend was definitely a very significant fall........ so in laymen's terminology and as recorded in the Bible in Isa 14:12 man did fall from heaven and then weakened all of mankind  through the passing of the serpent seed through the lions of man  all the way down unto us through our parents.

Now unless you are caught up in stone age doctrines of  raptures, ET as well as Satan going from good to evil as a fallen angel please understand that man being in heaven just as Jesus said He was in heaven while standing on earth is what was lost by man at the fall and is what will be restored unto man at the restitution of all things spoken of in Acts 3:21......... however the how, when, what and where is all subject for debate

No, I'm not caught up in a "stone age doctrine", I don't believe in a rapture (never have before), ET, or Satan going from good to evil. What I do believe is that God has a PLAN. One that He made before he made the world, and one that no one can change. Isa. 14:12 is talking about the king of Babylon, unless you forgot the the evil city of Capernaum was also "exalted to heaven". I believe that Jesus came to save the WORLD; that it's God's will that ALL men be saved; that when God's judgments are in the Earth, the World will learn righteousness, and that God will be "all in all". I have a few questions for you:

What do you think we're saved from?
What do YOU think is the fate of the wicked?
Do you think Eve sinned before, or after she took the fruit?

[Livelystone]

Thanks for both of the replies 

I have some things to get done but God willing I will get a reply post up some time today

Blessings

Doug

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Gee, I hope I "personally" don't get cursed with being in the book of life. Being a Gentile.

[Livelystone]

Paul

You said

Salvation for ALL takes place after death because there is no one who escapes the reality of this life simply by saying they believe, no matter what doctrine it is.

Do you not believe that there is a salvation planned for us in this life?

Most heartily I believe so as well as I believe that has been the plan of God for man from before the beginning of the creation story. From the time that God said that He had already made man in His image (God is spirit and so is man) yet planned to make man in both His image AND His likeness (that is the soul of God that is the very essence of Jesus Christ) He has had that as His plan and you can fit the whole Bible between the part of the plan that has already happened and what is still yet to be accomplished. 

 The likeness of God is the fullness of the seven fold Spirit of the Lord as recorded in Isa 11:2....... this is the realm that Jesus Christ existed in who was and is the pattern Son for those who are heirs with Him....... For sure this is not something just for after we die and we see that in the prayer when Jesus taught us to pray for His Kingdom to come to earth for us to have life abundantly in this life.

However from the beginning it was prophesied in the scriptures for this not to come forth in us as God's finished work until this 7th day that is the same as the third day His Temple (us) would be completed. IMO the only thing that needs to be established in the timeline is whether we at at the end of 6th day  or have actually broken into the dawn of the 7th day.

No one says that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy spirit,

What about Satan who not only knows that Jesus is Lord but trembles at the mere mention of His Name.......... something I wish more Christians would do.

Heck I walked into a situation once where there was a Satan worshipper present who made a public scene moaning and crying saying she could see my deceased mother who worshipped Jesus Christ every day of her life sitting on my shoulder watching out for me and commanding her what to say to me...... this women was a "leader" of a local satanic worship in South Florida but was utterly terrified of what my mother was saying to her......... the real kicker is that at that time I was not yet following after the Lord that IMO is also showing foreknowledge on the part of the spirit of Satan within his workers that in time I would become a man of God. For sure when I have been called to minister unto possessed persons I have found the evil in them to be easily dominated by the Holy Spirit in me

The final analysis is that for sure Satan as well as his workers know that Jesus is Lord and they can even see His anointing on those whom He has chosen even when those individuals are not yet aware of it........ For another example look what happened in the scriptures when Jesus approached the man they called legion because he had so many devils in him

Luk 8:28       When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.


Luk 8:29       (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)


Luk 8:30       And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.


Luk 8:31       And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

What is the point of being forgiven, if you are not saved?

Then my question to you is what is the point of one "being saved" if one not being taught how to overcome sin and become holy and perfect as God is and as we are commanded to become as by Jesus?

Because of Christians committing sin after they have become believers is why Jesus said there would be believers appointed their reward along with the unbelievers that we see together in Revelations 20 at the GWT. Point is that we are suppose to be learning to overcome sin but it has gotten so bad that many unbelievers consider Christians because of their dishonesty to be the absolute worst possible people to do business with ....... no wonder Jesus has no place to rest His head and why he called the church to be amongst other things "the synagogue of Satan".

What exactly are you saying is the fate of the unbelievers in this light, maybe you should be more specific.

I do not know their fate but for sure with some Christians being held accountable with only a few stripes but others with more you can bet your bottom dollar that those who totally rebuke and reject Jesus will also pay a price. However I think it would be much better for the gospel of universal restoration if the UR camps at least talk realistically to members of the ET camp when they ask what happens to all the bad people of the world when they die rather then say that they are all being loved on by Jesus in heaven when the reality is that they are wishing they had done their lives on earth a lot differently

Luk 12:47    And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

Luk 12:48    But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

What is more specific is that I tell both Christians and unbelievers alike is that you will obtain perfection no matter how imperfect you are and that today is the day of salvation for we are under grace and are not being judged according to the law therefore man is not killed when they do things like covet or bare false witness. For some people that is going to be very painful process but for others not quite as bad.......  Revelations shows those around the throne who were given robes of righteousness having come out from "great tribulation".

This time that we live in should not be used to rejoice in what we have been given but to seek after what we have not yet obtained........... and that is to appear unto God and unto man at least in the same persona that the Apostles did.


Lupec

You said

No, I'm not caught up in a "stone age doctrine", I don't believe in a rapture (never have before), ET, or Satan going from good to evil. What I do believe is that God has a PLAN. One that He made before he made the world, and one that no one can change.

Good, we are on the same page in that regard.

Isa. 14:12 is talking about the king of Babylon, unless you forgot the the evil city of Capernaum was also "exalted to heaven".

Hmmm is that all you think of these passages that they are only speaking of some individuals who have exalted themselves above God that btw was also a sin of Adam?

In that case lets go over to Ezekiel and look at another example and see what you think.

Do these verses sound like different men who just have a bad case of a big head........

Eze 28:15       Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.[/i]
 

Eze 28:13       Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14       Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

When Isaiah spoke of the man "Lucifer" that the  NIV calls to be the "morning star", these are titles given to a son of God and not just to any old king with a big head...... What we are reading about in these scriptures is the fall of mankind that is called Adam  who was in the garden and was created perfect before he fell or in other words became less than the perfect state that he was first created in.

As you said God does have a plan and that plan is for a restitution of what was lost in the garden when Adam sinned that resulted his getting the boot out from a relationship of righteousness with God that was not seen again until Jesus Christ appeared on earth

Other than Eve sinning through lust before she partook of the fruit I have already addressed your other two questions in my reply to Paul

Blessings

Doug

[Livelystone]

Gee, I hope I "personally" don't get cursed with being in the book of life. Being a Gentile.

For your sake I hope you are in the Book of Life 

[Lupac]

Lively, I agree with some of what you say, but the point is, man will not be "restored" to the state he was in, in the garden. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Without eating of the fruit, we could have not started on the path to becoming sons of God. We cannot know good, without knowing evil. God INTENDED for man to disobey Him.

It looks like you believe everyone will be made perfect in the end, but your tired of hearing "God loves you and will never punish you, no matter what you do." correct?

As far as Adam, he was NOT "perfect". He was one of, if not the most carnal man who ever lived. The word for perfect in Eze. 28:15 is Strong's H8549, tâmı̂ym. It means "without blemish" and "undefiled", not spiritually perfect. For more info on the passage in Isaiah and Ezekiel, check out Ray Smith Lake of Fire #9:

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

and don't forget to read the entire series, it's great, a real eye opener.

Also, I think what Lee is saying, I think he believes in two gospels, one for the jews, and one for the gentiles. As such, the book of life of is for the jews. (I don't believe it ether, but just know where he's coming from.)

EDIT: Tell your "satanic priest" to stay off the lsd. I no longer believe in a personal "devil or Satan". All the evil in the world is in US. We don't need a devil to do evil.

Also, people can only confess Jesus as Lord, "To the glory of the Father" through the holy spirit.

[peacemaker]

"The dichotomy of the mind, speaks of good and evil; not perfection."

If something is not good, right and just, one-hundred percent of the time than its not truth. Rather, it is a derivative of the soul, which opposes the things of God; the fruit of the Spirit.

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

Do you not believe that there is a salvation planned for us in this life?

My belief is irrelevant to what is true, if you have something that is true to demonstrate, do so.

No one says that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy spirit,

What about Satan who not only knows that Jesus is Lord but trembles at the mere mention of His Name..........

Lets not start blurring the lines between the submission of a demon and an expression of devotion.

something I wish more Christians would do.

What Christians need to do is stop determining others by their religious molds and see that Christ is in more people than they can imagine if only they look.   You will find the difficulty that a UR person has is that they are told to hold on to religious traditions (oh except the eternal hell part) but that all the rest of it is right.  Cute cliches like  "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" are said when in reality the baby is dead.

I do not know their fate

Why don't you know?  

However I think it would be much better for the gospel of universal restoration if the UR

I think it would be much better if people seek the truth not defend a label.

camps at least talk realistically to members of the ET camp

God loves them and if when they do not agree with our point of view we consign them over to negativity disguised as "truth" then you actually show them you only pretend to care.

when they ask what happens to all the bad people of the world when they die rather then say that they are all being loved on by Jesus in heaven when the reality is that they are wishing they had done their lives on earth a lot differently

You actually don't have to tell anyone to wonder if they could of done something better,  everyone shares this common reflection.  You can do what you like,  I choose to serve the Lord, I choose to share the things that uplift and God can do his job.

I will help people find freedom by dealing with the physical realities of hurts and sadness and hopelessness as best I can.   Pointing fingers hasn't ever worked and believing in UR doesn't make it work either.

I'll consign people over peace and pray that God does cleanse the sinner and my own enemies and those I hate, because I can't.

[peacemaker]

If any believe that God is all three of these: Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent.
How could they even suggest that the Spirit is not in certain individuals?

"Who will cast the fist stone; a precious stone of forgiveness, or that of lapidating?"