Author Topic: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET  (Read 6156 times)

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Shadow

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Being a different member of different forums, I have seen numerous depictions of God which have left me confused

I do know this much though that churches don't preach an accurate message, which results in many false conversions such as myself, when thought I was a christian, I hoped that God loved me, however I've never been 100% sure of my salvation, I don't think I've ever truly known God, I've always been an agnostic theist (I believe in God but I don't KNOW God), it's not because I haven't wanted to, it's perhaps been because I've never been chosen

What confuses me is that many people see God as all loving, I don't know if this is perhaps where a great deal of my problem lies, I've never felt love and acceptance from my own parents, I've always been an outcast, don't worry I'm not having a pity party, I've come to terms with the fact that I'm not dear to my parents and being an outcast, in fact I can welcome it with open arms if only I could have the assurance in my heart that God has predestined all to be saved

When people speak of UR it seems right and it makes sense, however is it real or could it be a gospel built on false hope, there are so many passages that speak of the wrath of God that one cannot overlook, not to mention apocryphal books like the Book of Enoch, and 2Esdras that clearly spell out ET, in such a way that it was preplanned by God (surely this is largely responsible for the concept of ET to have taken a foothold in the first place)

Code:

Pro 16:25  There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.


However I find the ETers very unloving, and they seem totally unbothered by the ET concept and come with phrases like "Gods ways are not our ways", or God is not only love, he is also holy and cannot allow sin in his presence which begs the question

WHY DID HE BRING US INTO THIS MESS AS SINNERS, WITHOUT AS MUCH AS CONSULTING US FIRST, THEN CONDEMN US FOR SOMETHING HE CREATED US AS IN THE FIRST PLACE

What scares me is that I'm figuratively stumbling in the dark as I haven't had the revelation many others have had, the Eters say they have this intimate relationship with God, so do the URers and the Annihilationists, but they can't all be right

The crux of the matter is that if ET or annihilation are true, then God never intended to save all mankind, however if so, annihilation at least shows much more mercy and compassion for the victim than ET and I could accept an annihilation God, although I would prefer an UR God

The thing is all 3 positions have scripture to back them up

The thing is I have to try find the true character of God, if he is an ET God then I'm doomed, however I won't go on ex-c forums and make a mockery as this is not my style, I will try put this behind me and try to live the rest of my life as best I know how, and try to enjoy it

I just hope that UR is true and that God will reveal it to me, so that I can know without a shadow of a doubt, one thing I do notice is that URers are far more loving and less vindictive than ETers (I could never be an ETer, I would have to become agnostic or deist)

I want those that wronged me to be in heaven one day, I don't want them to go to an eternal hell

I hope you can understand my dilemma
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 12:34:45 AM by Shadow »

jesushandsarekindhands

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 09:53:56 PM »
Shadow, im glad your here, because you feel EXACTLY the same as me.  Everything you have said above i totally understand.  Its annoying isnt it?  Confusing.  Its hard because it kind of grounds you...You think "Why cant i just find out the damn answer and get on with things?" 

Well, i dont know.  Im thinking of giving up on the old religion thing completely, this is the last chance im giving it.  Im willing to preach, spread the word..do almost anything if i learn the truth, and i still cant find it lol.


Tim B

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 10:07:47 PM »
Well, I for one don't fear ET at all. I just don't think it's true.

I look at the whole situation this way:

If God is love then he will have all men to be saved.

If God isn't love, then he won't save all men, and I don't want to be a part of this God anyway. I'd gladly be annihilated.

At this point I figure: I don't really have much to worry about. Either God is going to save me and everyone else because he loves ALL men, or he might annihilate me and some others, but I can't control any of it. (I mean, if I were to be annihilated in the future then I was doomed to be annihilated. God, being all knowing, would have put me on Earth knowing that I'd be annihilated, and so my fate was sealed. Thus, I have absolutely no control over my end fate.)

Tim B

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 10:08:34 PM »
Shadow, im glad your here, because you feel EXACTLY the same as me.  Everything you have said above i totally understand.  Its annoying isnt it?  Confusing.  Its hard because it kind of grounds you...You think "Why cant i just find out the damn answer and get on with things?

Well, i dont know.  Im thinking of giving up on the old religion thing completely, this is the last chance im giving it.  Im willing to preach, spread the word..do almost anything if i learn the truth, and i still cant find it lol.



I've thought these words all too much before. Even now, they come to me.

Shadow

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 10:11:50 PM »
Thanks for that JHAKH :HeartThrob:

I think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.

Don't give up on UR just yet, although I haven't progressed much, I find that the Eters are making less and less sense when they try to defend their beloved doctrine

They are also mostly fixated on a pretrib rapture which to me is a doctrine rooted in utter self centredness, I've downloaded a whole lot of UR websites for offline viewing, sometimes it resonates a chord in me, it makes more sense than ET, I believe Cardinal, Martincisneros and others that have had that intimate experience with God

Here are a few UR websites

http://www.hell-fact-or-fable.com/index.html

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter12.cfm

http://www.tlchrist.info/ (this one is quite a large site)

Rather listen to others than me, as I suffer from severe anxiety and I'm not as grounded as they are, I tend to get my knickers in a knot and make posts and threads of this nature now and again, although not as frequently as I once did






jesushandsarekindhands

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 10:12:09 PM »
Well, I for one don't fear ET at all. I just don't think it's true.

I look at the whole situation this way:

If God is love then he will have all men to be saved.

If God isn't love, then he won't save all men, and I don't want to be a part of this God anyway. I'd gladly be annihilated.

At this point I figure: I don't really have much to worry about. Either God is going to save me and everyone else because he loves ALL men, or he might annihilate me and some others, but I can't control any of it. (I mean, if I were to be annihilated in the future then I was doomed to be annihilated. God, being all knowing, would have put me on Earth knowing that I'd be annihilated, and so my fate was sealed. Thus, I have absolutely no control over my end fate.)

True Tim True.  Its just worrying when sometimes you cant help but think that the eternal life of all men may well be in the hands of a manic.  The though has occurred to me many time, through passages like this...

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

...And then i have to realize that this is a God of love?  It makes no sense.

jesushandsarekindhands

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 10:14:26 PM »
Thanks for that JHAKH :HeartThrob:

I think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.

Don't give up on UR just yet, although I haven't progressed much, I find that the Eters are making less and less sense when they try to defend their beloved doctrine

They are also mostly fixated on a pretrib rapture which to me is a doctrine rooted in utter self centredness, I've downloaded a whole lot of UR websites for offline viewing, sometimes it resonates a chord in me, it makes more sense than ET, I believe Cardinal, Martincisneros and others that have had that intimate experience with God

Here are a few UR websites

http://www.hell-fact-or-fable.com/index.html

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter12.cfm

http://www.tlchrist.info/ (this one is quite a large site)

Rather listen to others than me, as I suffer from severe anxiety and I'm not as grounded as they are, I tend to get my knickers in a knot and make posts and threads of this nature now and again, although not as frequently as I once did







Hi, hey don't worry about it, i like hearing all sides of the coin, in fact these doubts have to be dealt with or we won't get anywhere, so its good to stare them in the eye.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 11:38:20 PM »
I think I'm a burden to most here,
If that was true all you post would be ignored. But they are all answered......

Quote
I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much,
Of course I can only 'judge' you from your posts but to me they seem less doomy that before.
I see more and more ET doubt in your posts. Maybe you spend to little time here and to much on ET sites?
If you find a good (as in evil) ET article many here would love to debunk it to the last letter.
I think that's better for you both from teh point of learning and sleepless nights.

Quote
I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here
On the bright side: If you are slow that also means once you are into UR some silly ET article won't even scratch your armor... Being slow works both ways you know.

Quote
I find that the Eters are making less and less sense when they try to defend their beloved doctrine
Progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sparrow

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 11:41:53 PM »
I think I'm a burden to most here,

I love you and am very glad you're here, Shadow.
Your honesty and rawness are refreshing and you say what is in your heart.
You are not a burden in the least.
Quite the opposite.
The ones I find burdensome at times are those who are too afraid to get real.

peace to you shadow.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

martincisneros

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2009, 12:07:05 AM »
I think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.
It's all in your mind. You've not been a burden to anyone around here.  We love you and are glad you've been here and we miss you when you're not.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ...
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 12:09:02 AM »
 :cloud9: Absolutely........ :girlheart:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: ...
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2009, 12:16:56 AM »
 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: ...
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2009, 12:20:51 AM »
Shadow look back a little bit. You are getting a bit demotivated by that demonic ET doctrine.
The best way to fight demons is hangout in a place that demons hate most.
A place with words of Jesus instead of words of satan.
HERE
 :HeartThrob:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: ...
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2009, 12:30:09 AM »
willieH: Hi Shadow... :hithere:



We need you here! (you're the purple one!)  :laughing7:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Shadow

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2009, 12:40:01 AM »
Thanks for the responses and understanding, I've brought the topic back to what it originally said, I was really down, to those that Pmed me I will reply to those Pm's tommorrow, I see more people care than I first thought and for that I thank you, I would never have got such love and understanding on an ET forum :HeartThrob:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2009, 12:42:56 AM »
It's because we think of one another as friends and family; not the adversary.
Remember, you're the purple one!

Offline sparrow

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2009, 12:46:01 AM »
 :HeartThrob: Glad that you are starting to understand that we love ya...
if you hurt, we hurt.
Just know that you're loved. :HeartThrob:


p.s. Willie, can I be the green one? Green is my favorite color. Thanks!  :winkgrin:

 :grouppray:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Seth

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2009, 01:09:11 AM »
I'm definitely red.  More like orange though. :laughing7:

Offline jabcat

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2009, 02:19:53 AM »
I think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.
It's all in your mind. You've not been a burden to anyone around here.  We love you and are glad you've been here and we miss you when you're not.

 :thumbsup:

Tim B

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2009, 03:17:53 AM »
I guess I'll take the yellow color.  :winkgrin:

Also, I'm glad you still join us, Shadow.  :boyheart:

You're honesty is welcome too! Makes discussion more real! :thumbsup:

Gab

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2009, 03:22:35 AM »
Personally, I'm glad to have some around who have doubts or uncertainties - being around only those who seem to have no doubts or uncertainty whatsoever and who seem to spend every waking moment glorifying God can be, I am forced to admit, a little intimidating. :laughing7:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2009, 03:29:27 AM »
Intimidating?
That will change.

That is what we are created to do and it is a response to Him not a first action on our part.

Ahh, to walk again with the Lord in the cool of the day!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 03:33:06 AM by Beloved Servant »

Offline sparrow

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2009, 04:19:45 AM »
Personally, I'm glad to have some around who have doubts or uncertainties

Same here.
Faith is like muscle tissue, if it's never been broken down, how is it ever supposed to gain strength? Coming before friends with a pumped up muscle is great, but true courage in friendship is letting your friends in, when your muscle is in the "broken down" state.

Well, that's just the way I see it.

:HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Chris

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2009, 05:02:25 AM »
Hey Shadow,

I think that we all probably come from very different places. I don't understand the whole ET mindset but it was never instilled in me the way it is in many other Christians as I was raised Mormon (which most do not even consider Christian, anyway). And even though the Book of Mormon speaks about an eternal hell it's not really something that Mormons  focus on all that much as they don't believe that most people are going there (as does traditional Christianity). In Mormonism we just don't all make it to the "Celestial Kingdom" (the highest degree of glory).

But anyway, my only point is that while I had doubts about the Mormon church and Joseph Smith and all of that I also (probably as a result of the same) had doubts about the existence of God, just as you do. I had "hope" because I was taught/told that there is a God, but I did not feel like I "knew" Him or even "knew" that He did exist.

Not to be discouraging (so I hope this is more encouraging than discouraging) but for as far back as I can remember I would pray to God to reveal himself to me so that I would "know" him (as others said that "they" did), but after many years of praying and begging and pleading with Him - to no avail - I gave up altogether and figured I would just find out when I die. And it wasn't until I was in my 30's (about 5 years ago) that God finally revealed himself to me in such a way that I did not doubt for a second that it was God reaching out to me. So, it is my experience that God can and will find us wherever we are, but it certainly doesn't come by demand or by any other timetable but His. Sometimes it doesn't even seem to come by prayer and seeking... because it does take so long, sometimes, unfortunately.  :gsigh:

But His timing is always "right" even if we don't know when that time will come.  :gwink:

It was only for a brief few months after that experience that I gave serious thought to the doctrine of "eternal torment" ("serious" in that I believed it to be what the bible said, so didn't really spend all that much time thinking seriously about it or questioning it. I was only interested in figuring out what all of the "symbols" in the book of Revelation and Daniel and Ezekiel meant and how/when believers might be "raptured"... I was REALLY SERIOUSLY INTO all that "end times" stuff).

But about 6 months in I came across the teaching of universal salvation for the very first time (because I clicked on an add about tithing being unscriptural) and I knew from the very first article that I read that it was true.

So, for as long as it took me to even believe that God exists at all, was just how quick (even faster) it was for me to see the truth of UR. Now I don't see everything the same way now that I did then and I think that there are just as many "denomination" (if I can call them that, for lack of a better word) among those who believe in UR as there are those who believe in ET. Just like with ET, the differences are "in the details".

But when it comes to the LOVE of God and the WRATH of God, we know that God's love "endureth forever" while his wrath "for a moment" and we know that God identified Himself as a God of LOVE (even as LOVE itself) and that "true judgment" is to show mercy and compassion.

We reap what we sow and mercy is shown to those who show mercy, while the unmercidul and unforgiving reap coal of fire upon themselves and to them God reveals himself as unmerciful.

A very good friend of mine posted a study on judgment at CARM some time back and it was so good that I copied it and posted it with some of my own studied on an online blog. You might find it helpful, maybe? Or at least be able to use it to get a glimpse at an understanding of judgment is that neither "all loving" nor extremely "wrathful" (particularly to degree that some would go - even in some UR camps).

It's titled: How does The King of heaven deal with those who do not forgive. You can find it at the following link:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247

(I would copy/paste it here, instead of directing you elsewhere, but I would lose all of the formatting and have to either reformat it or post it without and I find that the formatting (bold, underlins, colors, etc) helps (at least it does me).

Didn't mean to write so much, sorry.   :Oops:


Just wanted to let you know that you are not as alone as you think you might be when it comes to doubts, etc. Many of us have probably been there at one time or another. I pray that your "time" is coming soon.  :Pray:

Blessings,
Chrissie  :ginlove:
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 05:06:38 AM by Chris »

Gab

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Re: All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 05:13:13 AM »
Intimidating?
That will change.

That is what we are created to do and it is a response to Him not a first action on our part.

Ahh, to walk again with the Lord in the cool of the day!

Well, intimidating in the sense that it's something that I can't do - I've tried many times - and sometimes when I look at all those who are like that I begin to secretly have thoughts that maybe God doesn't want me as much as he wants others.  Which is an entirely un-Biblical thought, I know - but it's a persistent one nonetheless.