Author Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water  (Read 52684 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #500 on: March 04, 2009, 04:06:44 PM »
Tony, I see an age is a duration defined by shared attributes.  Tony, I read your article before but it counters age-lasting and age-pertaining.  It doesn't cover age-enduring.

Paul
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 04:12:33 PM by trettep »

Offline reFORMer

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 1943
  • Gender: Male
  • Psalm 133
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #501 on: March 04, 2009, 08:06:20 PM »
The eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 does not mean: "to last the age and beyond with no end point specified."  But for those who persist following and posting in this thread surely the chastening is, "To last the age and beyond with no end point specified."
I don't know if anybody understood I was speaking "tongue in cheek."  To persist in this thread is to undergo chastening, ""To last the age and beyond with no end point specified."
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #502 on: March 04, 2009, 08:10:51 PM »
The eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 does not mean: "to last the age and beyond with no end point specified."  But for those who persist following and posting in this thread surely the chastening is, "To last the age and beyond with no end point specified."
I don't know if anybody understood I was speaking "tongue in cheek."  To persist in this thread is to undergo chastening, ""To last the age and beyond with no end point specified."

Now that's funny R. I was thinking how our Lord is probably doing the ultimate belly laugh over how we can go on and on and on for literal ages over a couple of words of His. I say this with all due respect for this thread and all on it and for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #503 on: March 04, 2009, 08:36:20 PM »
Tony, I see an age is a duration defined by shared attributes. 
Paul

Please give some examples from the New Testament.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #504 on: March 04, 2009, 10:01:18 PM »
Please give some examples from the New Testament.


You can use any verse that has aion in it.  But here is one for you:

Luk 1:70  As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Paul

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #505 on: March 04, 2009, 10:45:39 PM »
Please give some examples from the New Testament.


You can use any verse that has aion in it.  But here is one for you:

Luk 1:70  As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Paul

I'm curious what the shared attributes are? . . .

Luk 1:70 "According as He speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets, who are from the eon; "

Gabe, you you saying the "prophets" force their attributes upon "aion" and make it longer than an aion?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #506 on: March 04, 2009, 11:02:54 PM »
Please give some examples from the New Testament.


You can use any verse that has aion in it.  But here is one for you:

Luk 1:70  As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Paul

I'm curious what the shared attributes are? . . .

Luk 1:70 "According as He speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets, who are from the eon; "

Gabe, you you saying the "prophets" force their attributes upon "aion" and make it longer than an aion?

The shared attributes would be the times the prophets have delivered His message.

Paul

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #507 on: March 04, 2009, 11:41:28 PM »
Please give some examples from the New Testament.


You can use any verse that has aion in it.  But here is one for you:

Luk 1:70  As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Paul

I'm curious what the shared attributes are? . . .

Luk 1:70 "According as He speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets, who are from the eon; "

Gabe, you you saying the "prophets" force their attributes upon "aion" and make it longer than an aion?

The shared attributes would be the times the prophets have delivered His message.

Paul

You lost me. What do you mean?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8431
  • Gender: Female
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #508 on: March 05, 2009, 12:12:59 AM »
The eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 does not mean: "to last the age and beyond with no end point specified."  But for those who persist following and posting in this thread surely the chastening is, "To last the age and beyond with no end point specified."
I don't know if anybody understood I was speaking "tongue in cheek."  To persist in this thread is to undergo chastening, ""To last the age and beyond with no end point specified."

 :cloud9: I caught it when I read it earlier today reFormer, but I had to leave before I could post anything..... :grin: Good one.... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #509 on: March 05, 2009, 12:23:31 AM »
You lost me. What do you mean?

It provides a framework for understanding the duration of aion.  It gives it more of a context.

Paul

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #510 on: March 05, 2009, 03:14:55 AM »
You lost me. What do you mean?

It provides a framework for understanding the duration of aion.  It gives it more of a context.

Paul

What do you mean by "it"?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #511 on: March 05, 2009, 04:52:37 AM »
What do you mean by "it"?

Hi Tony, what I mean is that we know that whatever aion is here it must be a period in which the prophets were bring us their message.  In other words it is a characteristic of the period.  This is what I find about aion.  I believe it is rightly interpreted as "age" because "age" brings the idea of a characterized duration to our thoughts.  I haven't found a verse in the Bible in which aion is used that plugging word "age" in caused a comprehension problem.  This is how many Greek Scholars have interpreted it and I have no problem with that understanding.   But again, that was one verse.  You asked for examples.  So you can use any verse that uses aion if you like to make whatever point you were going to make.  Tony, I have not interest in sticking to my case and pushing aion as "age" down anyone.  If you have a point that you believe carries more weight that aion should be interpreted other than "age" then I definately want to hear it.  I would be foolish to not want to hear (read) it.

Paul

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #512 on: March 05, 2009, 03:16:43 PM »
What do you mean by "it"?

Hi Tony, what I mean is that we know that whatever aion is here it must be a period in which the prophets were bring us their message.  In other words it is a characteristic of the period.  This is what I find about aion.  I believe it is rightly interpreted as "age" because "age" brings the idea of a characterized duration to our thoughts.  I haven't found a verse in the Bible in which aion is used that plugging word "age" in caused a comprehension problem.  This is how many Greek Scholars have interpreted it and I have no problem with that understanding.   But again, that was one verse.  You asked for examples.  So you can use any verse that uses aion if you like to make whatever point you were going to make.  Tony, I have not interest in sticking to my case and pushing aion as "age" down anyone.  If you have a point that you believe carries more weight that aion should be interpreted other than "age" then I definately want to hear it.  I would be foolish to not want to hear (read) it.

Paul

O.K. so you are saying that the prophets who are from the eon "define the eon"? I don't see how that is so. Paul says we live "in the current wicked eon" and what defines this eon is wickedness. But that does not mean that since it is a wicked eon that the wickedness which marks this eon will last beyond this eon. The next eon will be marked by righteousness due to Christ reigning on the earth for 1000 years. That thousand year eon will end as Revelation states here:

Rev 20:6-7  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."  (7)  And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."

So, the chastening which is eonian in Matthew 25:46 does not make eonian mean for the age and beyond.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #513 on: March 05, 2009, 04:22:42 PM »
Rev 20:6-7  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."  (7)  And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."

So, the chastening which is eonian in Matthew 25:46 does not make eonian mean for the age and beyond.

I don't understand how you conclude that  :Chinscratch:
There is a group that rules with Christ. For them the chastening has ended.
But they rule over others. For 'the others' the chastening has begun or is continuing.
So it can be said that the chastening ends after that 1000 years.
I think not because when satan is loosed out of jail the sinning starts again. And therefore (at least some) chastening is needed.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #514 on: March 05, 2009, 05:09:03 PM »
Rev 20:6-7  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."  (7)  And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."

So, the chastening which is eonian in Matthew 25:46 does not make eonian mean for the age and beyond.

I don't understand how you conclude that  :Chinscratch:
There is a group that rules with Christ. For them the chastening has ended.
But they rule over others. For 'the others' the chastening has begun or is continuing.
So it can be said that the chastening ends after that 1000 years.
I think not because when satan is loosed out of jail the sinning starts again. And therefore (at least some) chastening is needed.

Hi WW,
The nations that treated Christ's brothers properly during their great tribulation will enter into the life of the kingdom. The nations that treated them improperly get chastening during that same time.
That 1000 year long eon is marked by righteousness. Satan is locked up so as not to deceive the nations. It is only at the end of the thousand years he is unlocked and deceives the nations. And the chastening those nations get for being involved in that act are disciplined in an instant rather than a long drawn out process.

The chastening those nations endure is only for the 1000 years. It is not for the 1000 years and beyond. Therefore the eonian chastening is the chastening pertaining to that eon. It is not for that eon and beyond.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #515 on: March 05, 2009, 05:27:31 PM »
O.K. so you are saying that the prophets who are from the eon "define the eon"? I don't see how that is so. Paul says we live "in the current wicked eon" and what defines this eon is wickedness. But that does not mean that since it is a wicked eon that the wickedness which marks this eon will last beyond this eon. The next eon will be marked by righteousness due to Christ reigning on the earth for 1000 years. That thousand year eon will end as Revelation states here:

Rev 20:6-7  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."  (7)  And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."

So, the chastening which is eonian in Matthew 25:46 does not make eonian mean for the age and beyond.

I do see this aion to be defined by wickedness because the lord of this age is Satan.   That is a characteristic to this aion.  The Lord of the next age is our Wonderful Lord - Jesus Christ.  But chastisement will abound.

Paul

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #516 on: March 05, 2009, 05:33:01 PM »
Hi WW,
The nations that treated Christ's brothers properly during their great tribulation will enter into the life of the kingdom. The nations that treated them improperly get chastening during that same time.
That 1000 year long eon is marked by righteousness. Satan is locked up so as not to deceive the nations. It is only at the end of the thousand years he is unlocked and deceives the nations. And the chastening those nations get for being involved in that act are disciplined in an instant rather than a long drawn out process.

The chastening those nations endure is only for the 1000 years. It is not for the 1000 years and beyond. Therefore the eonian chastening is the chastening pertaining to that eon. It is not for that eon and beyond.

How do we know it is an instant?  And also if it is after the 1000 years then doesn't that show that the aionios chastisement is not directly related to the 1000 years?  I believe that is what WhiteWings is showing.

Paul

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #517 on: March 05, 2009, 05:43:29 PM »
Rev 20:6-7  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."  (7)  And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."

So, the chastening which is eonian in Matthew 25:46 does not make eonian mean for the age and beyond.
I think not because when satan is loosed out of jail the sinning starts again. And therefore (at least some) chastening is needed.
Satan is locked up so as not to deceive the nations. It is only at the end of the thousand years he is unlocked and deceives the nations. And the chastening those nations get for being involved in that act are disciplined in an instant rather than a long drawn out process.

Is it this verse that you mean when you wrote 'in an instant' ?
Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That looks a bit like annihilation.
The armies are crushed in an instant. That's clear from the verse. A few verses later all are judged. That includes the people from the armies. Then they wicked are cast unto LoF. Then for me there are only a few further possible 'actions'
a] It's an ET type of fire
b] They die after a while (but dead is already destroyed)
c] A period of chastening starts.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #518 on: March 05, 2009, 06:57:49 PM »
Rev 20:6-7  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."  (7)  And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."

So, the chastening which is eonian in Matthew 25:46 does not make eonian mean for the age and beyond.
I think not because when satan is loosed out of jail the sinning starts again. And therefore (at least some) chastening is needed.
Satan is locked up so as not to deceive the nations. It is only at the end of the thousand years he is unlocked and deceives the nations. And the chastening those nations get for being involved in that act are disciplined in an instant rather than a long drawn out process.

Is it this verse that you mean when you wrote 'in an instant' ?
Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That looks a bit like annihilation.
The armies are crushed in an instant. That's clear from the verse. A few verses later all are judged. That includes the people from the armies. Then they wicked are cast unto LoF. Then for me there are only a few further possible 'actions'
a] It's an ET type of fire
b] They die after a while (but dead is already destroyed)
c] A period of chastening starts.



Those nations involved in the insurrection led by Satan are killed.
Then they are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne then cast into death for the duration of that last eon.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #519 on: March 05, 2009, 07:25:38 PM »
Tony,

Perhaps some misunderstanding but I still see conflicting things.

a] We live now and are being chastend. -> this age
b] During the 1000 year reign of Jesus there is a group of rulers and a group of those who are ruled -> another age
c] Satan is released for 'a short while' -> another (short) age
d] The rebelion is crushed. All creation is resurrected and judged. -> no age. almost instantly. I think. (no proof)
e] "Then they are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne then cast into death for the duration of that last eon." => another age

Including the present age I count 4 ages + 1 short age  :thinking:

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 08:53:38 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Andy

  • Full
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #520 on: March 05, 2009, 07:36:41 PM »
Hi WW and all,

I found this chart on a UR site (don't remember where) and thought it may be useful here.



Here's the link to the chart that shows up larger and easier to read  :icon_flower:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/Andytater1259/eonssml3.gif
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 07:39:03 PM by Andy »

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #521 on: March 05, 2009, 08:14:16 PM »
That is our chart at http://saviourofall.org under charts.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #522 on: March 05, 2009, 08:18:11 PM »
Thanks Andy.
I have that picture somewhere hidden in my archive.
It actually made me grin a bit.

"Christ reigns for ever and ever"
And then the next sentance:
"Christ quits reigning"

If the chart is correct or not I can't say. It's kinda hard reading pictures when being blinded  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #523 on: March 05, 2009, 08:49:38 PM »
Great observation WW . . .I just assumed that must be when Jesus turns everything back over to the Father . .but you make a great point.

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #524 on: March 05, 2009, 09:06:34 PM »
That is our chart at http://saviourofall.org under charts.

Tony, hasn't your contention been that aionios refers to the 1000 year reign?  If so, can you explain how that relates to the additional chastisment that goes on after the 1000 years?

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

When Satan is loosed from his prison is AFTER the thousand years are expired.  That means another age.  So obviously, if you believe that aionios in Matthew 25:46 is referring to the chastisement of the 1000 years then there is still chastisement going on after that 1000 years.



Paul