Author Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water  (Read 48416 times)

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #475 on: February 28, 2009, 06:31:19 PM »
 :cloud9: The principle of catching is true enough, but hang with the Big Guy  :winkgrin: for in HIM are the things of life and life evermore (I know you are).

PTL though, because I just caught something new in what you posted, another repeat pattern! Jesus's napkin that was over his face in the tomb, was folded when they found it. This says Elijah wrapped together his mantle.

Odd points to emphasize unless you know that it was a custom in His time, for the master of the house, if he had to get up from the table, to fold his napkin, so that the servant would know he was not finished and was coming back to the table, and so would not remove anything.

The Lord did indeed come back to the tables of our hearts, as the HG on the day of Pentecost. Elijah too was seen again on the mount of Transfiguration. Orthodox Jews to this day, set a place for Elijah at their tables at the feast of Tabernacles, unaware his Spirit has already come. I never before connected these two occurrences, or with what the Orthodox do. Thank you, Molly, that made my day! Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #476 on: February 28, 2009, 06:35:18 PM »
 :cloud9: As soon as I posted the above, something else came into my mind, but I don't know exactly what He wants me to see in it. It's the scripture about Him folding up the heavens as GARMENT. Elijah is a type of the Spirit, the heavens (2nd heaven) are the spiritual realm. Thinking....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #477 on: February 28, 2009, 08:24:56 PM »
:cloud9: The principle of catching is true enough, but hang with the Big Guy  :winkgrin: for in HIM are the things of life and life evermore (I know you are).

PTL though, because I just caught something new in what you posted, another repeat pattern! Jesus's napkin that was over his face in the tomb, was folded when they found it. This says Elijah wrapped together his mantle.

Odd points to emphasize unless you know that it was a custom in His time, for the master of the house, if he had to get up from the table, to fold his napkin, so that the servant would know he was not finished and was coming back to the table, and so would not remove anything.

The Lord did indeed come back to the tables of our hearts, as the HG on the day of Pentecost. Elijah too was seen again on the mount of Transfiguration. Orthodox Jews to this day, set a place for Elijah at their tables at the feast of Tabernacles, unaware his Spirit has already come. I never before connected these two occurrences, or with what the Orthodox do. Thank you, Molly, that made my day! Blessings....
well thank you Both :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #478 on: March 03, 2009, 05:24:33 PM »
In my studies on the subject of Aionios, I have come to believe it means exactly age-enduring.  To be more specific that it means something that endures the age.  If I say my lawn mower was age-enduring then it would mean my lawn mower is going to remain after this age (aion) is exhausted.  But note that my lawn-mower exist during the present age.  So to exist beyond this age when it is exhausted or completed, my lawn-mower must be comprised of something that is able to withstand the exhausting of the age so as not to be exhausted also.

I spoke with Professor of Bible Greek that told me that aionios is the adjective form of aion.  That the adjective must still apply to its root aion.  Age-enduring does that.  Furthermore, age-enduring doesn't give a measure of time at all.  The endpoint of the aionios is not known.  Some will say it is "concealed" from us.  Aionios simply tells us that something extends beyond the age in context whether it is backward or forward.  For example to say something has an aionion existence would mean that it existed before the present age and since.  If we say that something has an aionions existence then we know it exists and will continue to exist once this age is completed.

Hope that helps.

Paul 

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #479 on: March 03, 2009, 05:44:01 PM »
Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I'm having a hard time thinking aionios's meaning should be age-enduring.

For instance, American, being the adjectival form of the noun America does not mean "America-enduring."

Obama, being the American president is not the America-enduring president but is the president pertaining to America.

Heavenly, being the adjectival form of the noun Heaven does not mean "Heaven-enduring."

"According to the aionion God" is not "according to the age-during God" but rather is "according to the God which is pertaining to the eons" (Rom.16:26).

This is not to say that that which is aionion is not enduring for the eon(s). It is. But that is not the inherrent thought.

Likewise, AIWN/aeon/aion does not mean "age." It's main meaning is just "duration." Whether that duration is unending or not is determined by definitive passages in Scripture.

The chastening and life in Matthew 25:46 is eonian which is to say it is pertaining to the eon of 1000 years duration.

The eon after that, the new earth eon is of a duration not known but surely not unending for the Bible says all the eons end.

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #480 on: March 03, 2009, 06:15:58 PM »
Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I'm having a hard time thinking aionios's meaning should be age-enduring.

For instance, American, being the adjectival form of the noun America does not mean "America-enduring."

Obama, being the American president is not the America-enduring president but is the president pertaining to America.

Heavenly, being the adjectival form of the noun Heaven does not mean "Heaven-enduring."

"According to the aionion God" is not "according to the age-during God" but rather is "according to the God which is pertaining to the eons" (Rom.16:26).

This is not to say that that which is aionion is not enduring for the eon(s). It is. But that is not the inherrent thought.

Likewise, AIWN/aeon/aion does not mean "age." It's main meaning is just "duration." Whether that duration is unending or not is determined by definitive passages in Scripture.

The chastening and life in Matthew 25:46 is eonian which is to say it is pertaining to the eon of 1000 years duration.

The eon after that, the new earth eon is of a duration not known but surely not unending for the Bible says all the eons end.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Of course American doesn't mean America-enduring.  But American does refer to it's root.  Likewise aionios refers to its root which is aion.  I see no problem with Romans 16:26 in light of what I presented.  Here is that verse again:

Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I continue to contend that aionios there would be referring to the God that endures the age.  It means that He exists during the present age and beyond the present age.   Again, as I stated in my initial post - it doesn't tell us and end point.

I disagree as to your assertion that aion doesn't mean age.  I firmly believe that it does.  I also disagree about your assertion Matthew 25:46 pertaining to the 1000 years.  Here is that verse:

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both references to aionios there are again references to age-enduring objects.  We are currently being punished for the Judgement that was passed upon Adam.  We toil and die.  That is a chastisement that exists in this present age and chastisement will continue beyond this age.  Just as those that have Christ have received aionios life now have received Life that exists now in this age and beyond.  I find evidence in the scriptures that is contrary to chastisement being equally delivered upon all men for their offences.  And if there is variance of chastisements then what is to say that there wouldn't be varied length of chastisement? 

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #481 on: March 03, 2009, 06:47:37 PM »
Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I'm having a hard time thinking aionios's meaning should be age-enduring.

For instance, American, being the adjectival form of the noun America does not mean "America-enduring."

Obama, being the American president is not the America-enduring president but is the president pertaining to America.

Heavenly, being the adjectival form of the noun Heaven does not mean "Heaven-enduring."

"According to the aionion God" is not "according to the age-during God" but rather is "according to the God which is pertaining to the eons" (Rom.16:26).

This is not to say that that which is aionion is not enduring for the eon(s). It is. But that is not the inherrent thought.

Likewise, AIWN/aeon/aion does not mean "age." It's main meaning is just "duration." Whether that duration is unending or not is determined by definitive passages in Scripture.

The chastening and life in Matthew 25:46 is eonian which is to say it is pertaining to the eon of 1000 years duration.

The eon after that, the new earth eon is of a duration not known but surely not unending for the Bible says all the eons end.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Of course American doesn't mean America-enduring.  But American does refer to it's root.  Likewise aionios refers to its root which is aion.  I see no problem with Romans 16:26 in light of what I presented.  Here is that verse again:

Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I continue to contend that aionios there would be referring to the God that endures the age.  It means that He exists during the present age and beyond the present age.   Again, as I stated in my initial post - it doesn't tell us and end point.

I disagree as to your assertion that aion doesn't mean age.  I firmly believe that it does.  I also disagree about your assertion Matthew 25:46 pertaining to the 1000 years.  Here is that verse:

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both references to aionios there are again references to age-enduring objects.  We are currently being punished for the Judgement that was passed upon Adam.  We toil and die.  That is a chastisement that exists in this present age and chastisement will continue beyond this age.  Just as those that have Christ have received aionios life now have received Life that exists now in this age and beyond.  I find evidence in the scriptures that is contrary to chastisement being equally delivered upon all men for their offences.  And if there is variance of chastisements then what is to say that there wouldn't be varied length of chastisement? 

Paul

I've really been trying to just stay away from this whole arguement because for one, I never understood why it was such a huge issue . . . and to be totally honest . . .it still really isn't that huge of a deal for me . .but that's just me . . .but what I do want to say is Paul, your last two posts have been the most clear explanations to me than all the others on this entire thread.  Just wanted to let ya know . . . you're actually making sense to me.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #482 on: March 03, 2009, 07:11:26 PM »
I've really been trying to just stay away from this whole arguement because for one, I never understood why it was such a huge issue . . . and to be totally honest . . .it still really isn't that huge of a deal for me . .but that's just me . . .but what I do want to say is Paul, your last two posts have been the most clear explanations to me than all the others on this entire thread.  Just wanted to let ya know . . . you're actually making sense to me.

Hi Nathan, I'm very pleased that my posts made some sense to someone.   That really is my hope.  If you do feel something is still confusing, please let me know and maybe I will have the proper answer.

Paul

Offline sven

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #483 on: March 03, 2009, 07:28:05 PM »
i think aionios can mean anything, from lifetime to several ages but without any reference to mean endless or eternal in the strict sense

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #484 on: March 03, 2009, 08:21:22 PM »
 :cloud9: I echo Nathan's sentiments. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #485 on: March 03, 2009, 08:42:51 PM »
:cloud9: I echo Nathan's sentiments. Blessings...

Cardinal, I praise God, thank you for that feedback.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #486 on: March 03, 2009, 09:02:39 PM »
Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I'm having a hard time thinking aionios's meaning should be age-enduring.

For instance, American, being the adjectival form of the noun America does not mean "America-enduring."

Obama, being the American president is not the America-enduring president but is the president pertaining to America.

Heavenly, being the adjectival form of the noun Heaven does not mean "Heaven-enduring."

"According to the aionion God" is not "according to the age-during God" but rather is "according to the God which is pertaining to the eons" (Rom.16:26).

This is not to say that that which is aionion is not enduring for the eon(s). It is. But that is not the inherrent thought.

Likewise, AIWN/aeon/aion does not mean "age." It's main meaning is just "duration." Whether that duration is unending or not is determined by definitive passages in Scripture.

The chastening and life in Matthew 25:46 is eonian which is to say it is pertaining to the eon of 1000 years duration.

The eon after that, the new earth eon is of a duration not known but surely not unending for the Bible says all the eons end.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Of course American doesn't mean America-enduring.  But American does refer to it's root.  Likewise aionios refers to its root which is aion.  I see no problem with Romans 16:26 in light of what I presented.  Here is that verse again:

Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I continue to contend that aionios there would be referring to the God that endures the age.  It means that He exists during the present age and beyond the present age.   Again, as I stated in my initial post - it doesn't tell us and end point.

Romans 16:26 is not telling us how long God lives or endures. Rather, it is giving us the relational aspect He enjoys in relation to the eons. Being the eonian God, He is the God pertaining to the eons. He is over them, directing them, subjecting humanity to the goals of each eon. That, my friend, is what Romans 16:26 is telling us.

Quote
I disagree as to your assertion that aion doesn't mean age.  I firmly believe that it does.

That is O.K. to disagree but just so you know you don't have a leg to stand on as to eon meaning age. If you look at every occurrence it cannot possibly mean "age." Please read this: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

 
Quote
I also disagree about your assertion Matthew 25:46 pertaining to the 1000 years.  Here is that verse:

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both references to aionios there are again references to age-enduring objects.  We are currently being punished for the Judgement that was passed upon Adam.  We toil and die.  That is a chastisement that exists in this present age and chastisement will continue beyond this age.  Just as those that have Christ have received aionios life now have received Life that exists now in this age and beyond.  I find evidence in the scriptures that is contrary to chastisement being equally delivered upon all men for their offences.  And if there is variance of chastisements then what is to say that there wouldn't be varied length of chastisement? 

Paul

Paul, your version of Matthew 25:46 is flawed. You have "everlasting" for aionios and "eternal" for aionios in the same verse. It is impossible for aionios to mean "everlasting" or "eternal" because that which it pertains to, namely the eon, in that verse is not eternal but 1000 years duration.

The life the nations receive and enjoy for being good to Christ's brethren is the same duration as the chastening the nations endure for mistreating Christ's brethren. That duration is not eternity. No eon is eternity therefore aionios cannot be translated "eternity" for it does not pertain to a noun such as "eternity."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #487 on: March 03, 2009, 09:33:56 PM »
Romans 16:26 is not telling us how long God lives or endures. Rather, it is giving us the relational aspect He enjoys in relation to the eons. Being the eonian God, He is the God pertaining to the eons. He is over them, directing them, subjecting humanity to the goals of each eon. That, my friend, is what Romans 16:26 is telling us.

Tony, I agree with you that aionios doesn't tell us how long God lives or endures and I never made such an assertion.

Quote
That is O.K. to disagree but just so you know you don't have a leg to stand on as to eon meaning age. If you look at every occurrence it cannot possibly mean "age." Please read this: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

 
Paul, your version of Matthew 25:46 is flawed. You have "everlasting" for aionios and "eternal" for aionios in the same verse. It is impossible for aionios to mean "everlasting" or "eternal" because that which it pertains to, namely the eon, in that verse is not eternal but 1000 years duration.

The life the nations receive and enjoy for being good to Christ's brethren is the same duration as the chastening the nations endure for mistreating Christ's brethren. That duration is not eternity. No eon is eternity therefore aionios cannot be translated "eternity" for it does not pertain to a noun such as "eternity."

Yes, my version that I quoted which is the King James is flawed for it does say "eternal" and "everlasting" but I quoted it because it is of the most recognized of the Bibles that many identify with.  I think that most that will read my posts will comprehend that I was raising the objections to the meaning of aionios being "eternal" or "everlasting".

I have read your link but there is nothing there that I find shows evidence to consider aionios as meaning different from age-enduring as I posted earlier.  If you want to point out a specific verse where you don't believe aionios can mean age-enduring then maybe we can discuss from that point.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #488 on: March 03, 2009, 09:59:46 PM »
Romans 16:26 is not telling us how long God lives or endures. Rather, it is giving us the relational aspect He enjoys in relation to the eons. Being the eonian God, He is the God pertaining to the eons. He is over them, directing them, subjecting humanity to the goals of each eon. That, my friend, is what Romans 16:26 is telling us.

Tony, I agree with you that aionios doesn't tell us how long God lives or endures and I never made such an assertion.

Quote
That is O.K. to disagree but just so you know you don't have a leg to stand on as to eon meaning age. If you look at every occurrence it cannot possibly mean "age." Please read this: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

 
Paul, your version of Matthew 25:46 is flawed. You have "everlasting" for aionios and "eternal" for aionios in the same verse. It is impossible for aionios to mean "everlasting" or "eternal" because that which it pertains to, namely the eon, in that verse is not eternal but 1000 years duration.

The life the nations receive and enjoy for being good to Christ's brethren is the same duration as the chastening the nations endure for mistreating Christ's brethren. That duration is not eternity. No eon is eternity therefore aionios cannot be translated "eternity" for it does not pertain to a noun such as "eternity."

Yes, my version that I quoted which is the King James is flawed for it does say "eternal" and "everlasting" but I quoted it because it is of the most recognized of the Bibles that many identify with.  I think that most that will read my posts will comprehend that I was raising the objections to the meaning of aionios being "eternal" or "everlasting".

I have read your link but there is nothing there that I find shows evidence to consider aionios as meaning different from age-enduring as I posted earlier.  If you want to point out a specific verse where you don't believe aionios can mean age-enduring then maybe we can discuss from that point.

Paul

I already did.
Rom 16:26  yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience -"

God is not the age-enduring God.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #489 on: March 03, 2009, 10:04:52 PM »
I already did.
Rom 16:26  yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience -"

God is not the age-enduring God.

Sure God is the age-enduring God.  God exists in this age and will exist beyond this age.  How is He not age-enduring?

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #490 on: March 03, 2009, 10:58:38 PM »
Paul is not trying to show God is enduring for the ages. By stating God is the eonian God he is telling us that God is the God pertaining to the eons. The title "God" is not a name but a title. God is the eonian Subjector or eonian Placer. His Subjectorship and Placership is pertaining to the eons.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #491 on: March 03, 2009, 11:18:12 PM »
Paul is not trying to show God is enduring for the ages. By stating God is the eonian God he is telling us that God is the God pertaining to the eons. The title "God" is not a name but a title. God is the eonian Subjector or eonian Placer. His Subjectorship and Placership is pertaining to the eons.

Tony, it is quite alright.  I never meant to imply that you believe that God is enduring for the ages.  I didn't believe that is what you meant at all.  I'm used to disagreement.  In time we both know that we shall share in the Truth.  I am lead by evidence from the scriptures.  If someone can show me why I shouldn't believe that aionios is age-enduring then I will listen to their advisement.  I will consider their case.  I have benefited greatly from the knowledge of others.  I'm more powerful because of Christ that I can head the message of others.  So please if you have some specific argument that you believe can clearly be presented then I insist you do so. 

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #492 on: March 03, 2009, 11:37:37 PM »
If the punishment of Matthew 25:46 is age-during, meaning: lasting for an age, then the improperly translated "age-during God" is a God who is lasting for an age.

If you read the article I supplied you would see that "age-during" is untennable.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #493 on: March 03, 2009, 11:45:14 PM »
If the punishment of Matthew 25:46 is age-during, meaning: lasting for an age, then the improperly translated "age-during God" is a God who is lasting for an age.

If you read the article I supplied you would see that "age-during" is untennable.

I don't make the claim that God is age-during.  I make the claim that aionios means age-enduring.  Meaning to last the age and beyond with no end point specified.  You may have misunderstood my initial posts in this regard.  I urge you to go back and read them and maybe you will see that I made this point.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #494 on: March 04, 2009, 02:09:52 AM »
If the punishment of Matthew 25:46 is age-during, meaning: lasting for an age, then the improperly translated "age-during God" is a God who is lasting for an age.

If you read the article I supplied you would see that "age-during" is untennable.

I don't make the claim that God is age-during.  I make the claim that aionios means age-enduring.  Meaning to last the age and beyond with no end point specified.  You may have misunderstood my initial posts in this regard.  I urge you to go back and read them and maybe you will see that I made this point.

Paul

But Paul, the eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 does not mean: "to last the age and beyond with no end point specified."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #495 on: March 04, 2009, 02:57:09 AM »
But Paul, the eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 does not mean: "to last the age and beyond with no end point specified."

Tony, then this is where we disagree.  I believe that aionios does mean that whatever is described as being aionios exists at that time and beyond without an end point specified.  So now that we have established where we disagree, maybe we can come to understand further to which the Truth actually is.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #496 on: March 04, 2009, 04:34:35 AM »
But Paul, the eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 does not mean: "to last the age and beyond with no end point specified."

Tony, then this is where we disagree.  I believe that aionios does mean that whatever is described as being aionios exists at that time and beyond without an end point specified.  So now that we have established where we disagree, maybe we can come to understand further to which the Truth actually is.

Paul

But the end point is specified. The chastening is eonian which is pertaining to that eon and that eon is the 1000 year long eon. The chastening of those nations does not continue on into the new earth.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #497 on: March 04, 2009, 04:55:28 AM »
The eonian chastening of Matthew 25:46 does not mean: "to last the age and beyond with no end point specified."  But for those who persist following and posting in this thread surely the chastening is, "To last the age and beyond with no end point specified."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 04:57:29 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

trettep

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #498 on: March 04, 2009, 05:21:12 AM »


But the end point is specified. The chastening is eonian which is pertaining to that eon and that eon is the 1000 year long eon. The chastening of those nations does not continue on into the new earth.

Tony, let me ensure that I understand you correctly.  Are you saying that aionios specifically means "duration" but that it also means specifically the duration referred to as the 1000 year long eon?

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #499 on: March 04, 2009, 01:14:41 PM »


But the end point is specified. The chastening is eonian which is pertaining to that eon and that eon is the 1000 year long eon. The chastening of those nations does not continue on into the new earth.

Tony, let me ensure that I understand you correctly.  Are you saying that aionios specifically means "duration" but that it also means specifically the duration referred to as the 1000 year long eon?

Paul

Dear Paul, please read the article in the link I supplied.
I never said aionios means "duration."
I said "aion" means "duration."

Therefore, since aionios is the adjective of aion, aionios has the duty of informing us of that which pertains to that duration.

There are different durations. The thousand year eon of course is specifically defined as a duration of 1000 years. Therefore, the chastening the nations go through, being eonian, is the chastening pertaining to that eon.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.