Author Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water  (Read 52507 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #450 on: February 23, 2009, 01:20:07 AM »
I miss this thread.  :happygrin:

Oh come on, tell the truth...you've been living and breathing this thread in your mind, preparing for Round 2  :laughing7:

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #451 on: February 23, 2009, 01:27:48 AM »
I miss this thread.  :happygrin:

Oh come on, tell the truth...you've been living and breathing this thread in your mind, preparing for Round 2  :laughing7:
Hi James  :icon_flower:

15 rounds go the heavy weights... :happygrin:



Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #452 on: February 23, 2009, 01:30:14 AM »
Hey Taf...don't count me in...my saying is "I'm a whole lot weaker than I look" :happygrin:

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #453 on: February 23, 2009, 01:36:57 AM »
Hey Taf...don't count me in...my saying is "I'm a whole lot weaker than I look" :happygrin:
He ha... ya not alone... :thumbsup:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline sven

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #454 on: February 23, 2009, 03:25:14 PM »
I found this writing by John Nelson Darby, though I not agree, maybe interesting for someone, especially Apocatastasis:

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/31003E.html

about the fig tree cursed in Matthew 21:19, i read once that the fig tree is a symbol of Israel (Judges:11; Jeremiah 24:2-10; Hosea 9:10; Mark 13:28) and according to Romans 11:26 Israel isn't cursed forever but more propably for this age.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 03:35:46 PM by sven »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #455 on: February 23, 2009, 05:13:57 PM »
So Tony N. tells us that an adjective can't modify a noun.  Well, can an adjective qualify a noun?

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1657#p1657

Please re-read what I wrote.
I never said that an adjective can't modify a noun.
In fact I stated just the opposite.

I state that it is the duty of the adjective to modify the noun,
as do the books that teach Greek say the duty of the adjective is to modify the noun.


I state that the noun does not modify the adjective.

To state that eonian can mean eternal because God is eternal is
to cause the noun "God" to modify the adjective "eonian." That is wrong.
 The adjective "eonian" modifies the noun "God" In Romans 16:26.

Also I read Talbott's idea from the supplied URL and found it to be wrong.
The fire of Matthew 25:46 is not "everlasting" because, according to Talbott, the effects last for ever.

Talbott says of the usage of aionios in Romans 16:26:
On other occasions, its use seems roughly Platonic in this sense: Whether God is eternal (that is, timeless, outside of time) in a purely Platonic sense or everlasting in the sense that he endures throughout all of the ages, nothing other than God is eternal in the primary sense (see the reference to 'the eternal God' in Rom. 16:26). The judgements, gifts, and actions of God are eternal in the secondary sense that their causal source lies in the eternal character and purpose God.

But that is incorrect. The noun "God" does not modify the adjective "aionios" in Romans 16:26. It is not telling us how long God lives but is in fact telling us that God, being the "eonian God" is the God pertaining to the eons. He is over them, directing them, subjecting mankind to the goals He has for each eon.

Both the chastening and the life of Matthew 25:46 is eonian, i.e. pertaining to that eon. One does not change the meaning of an adjective based upon a noun connected with it. Rather, the adjective modifies the noun.

I stated earlier I was done with this topic but I feel I've been baited once again. We'll see if this fish can reel in the fisher.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 02:00:19 AM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sven

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #456 on: February 23, 2009, 07:11:21 PM »
I found another interesting verse in the LXX:

Job 22:15

μη τριβον αιωνιον φυλαξεις ην επατησαν ανδρες αδικοι

Wilt thou not mark the old (aionios) way, which unrighteous men have trodden?

I can't imagine this are eternal or everlasting ways

Offline Molly

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #457 on: February 23, 2009, 07:31:39 PM »
I found another interesting verse in the LXX:

Job 22:15

μη τριβον αιωνιον φυλαξεις ην επατησαν ανδρες αδικοι

Wilt thou not mark the old (aionios) way, which unrighteous men have trodden?

I can't imagine this are eternal or everlasting ways

Interesting.

"the old way"

‛ôlâm  'ôrach


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #458 on: February 23, 2009, 07:32:49 PM »
From a post from Martin: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4956.msg52851#msg52851

Quote
Ancient writings, other than the Scriptures, show how aion and aionios were used in the ordinary affairs of that time period. Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.

In 1Enoch 10:10 there is an interesting statement using the Greek words: zoên aionion, "life eonian," or, as in the KJV, "everlasting life" (at John 3:16 and elswhere). The whole sentence in Enoch is, hoti elpizousi zêsai zoên aionion, kai hoti zêsetai hekastos auton etê pentakosia, "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years." Here, eonian life is limited to five hundred years!

St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin ...all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, "eonian chastening ...but a period, not a thousand years." Or, as some translate the last clause: "but a period of a thousand years only." He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.

Josephus shows that aionios did not mean endlessness, for he uses it of the period between the giving of the law to Moses and that of his own writing; to the period of the imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans; and to the period during which Herod's temple stood. The temple had already been destroyed by the time Josephus was writing.

Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration.

Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?"

In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time.

In the Iliad and Odyssey Aión occurs thirteen times, as a noun, besides its occurrence as a participle in the sense of hearing, perceiving, understanding. Homer never uses it as signifying eternal duration. Priam to Hector says, "Thyself shall be deprived of pleasant aiónos" (life.) Andromache over dead Hector, "Husband thou hast perished from aiónos" (life or time.)

Pindar gives thirteen instances, such as "A long life produces the four virtues."(Ela de kai tessaras aretas ho makros aión.)

Sophocles nine times. "Endeavor to remain the same in mind as long as you live." Askei toiaute noun di aiónos menein. He also employs makraion five times, as long-enduring. The word long increases the force of aión, which would be impossible if it had the idea of eternity.

Hippocrates. "A human aión is a seven days matter."

Empedocles, An earthly body deprived of happy life, (aiónos.)

Euripides uses the word thirty-two times. I'll quote three instances: "Marriage to those mortals who are well situated is a happy aión." "Every aión of mortals is unstable." "A long aión has many things to say," etc.






1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #459 on: February 24, 2009, 01:23:06 AM »
Excellent posts sven, Molly and WhiteWings
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sven

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #460 on: February 25, 2009, 12:47:20 PM »
1 Henoch 10:10 is a very interesting verse:

And no request that they make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal (aionios) life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.

it really seems "eternal" life means only 500 years here

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #461 on: February 25, 2009, 12:52:33 PM »
but . . . but . . . but . . . sven, don't you know that the aionios life is the life of God and since God is e-----t-----e-----r-----n----a-----l the life must be also? Therefore the 500 years are e----t----e----r----n----a----l years because, don't you know, we have to reverse the logical laws of language and make the noun, God, modify the adjective, aionios!

Anything is possible when one is Alice in Wonderland.

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #462 on: February 25, 2009, 01:08:10 PM »
Or Even "The AGE of Grace and the Fullness thereoff "-Time beiNg irrelavant as its defined by KNOWING HIM

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him

 :icon_flower:

Moving from Death to Life, Knowing the """Power""of the Resurrection


Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, ****not**** knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 01:12:35 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #463 on: February 25, 2009, 05:08:49 PM »
Joh 17:2-3  according as Thou givest Him authority over all flesh, that everything which Thou hast given to Him, He should be giving it to them, even life eonian."  (3)  Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ."

Jesus Himself said that His God is "the only true God." Knowing the only true God and knowing the one He commissioned: Jesus Christ, is eonian life in that figurative sense of the word.

The life pertaining to the eons is knowing God and Christ.

Without knowing God or Christ one can be not be receiving the life pertaining to the eons to come.

How does Christ give to them eonian life? By giving them a knowledge of His true God and a knowledge of Himself.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Me."

If one does not hear from the Father and is not learning the truth, that one is not coming to Christ and therefore is not getting eonian life.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #464 on: February 26, 2009, 02:15:19 AM »
Hey TN :icon_flower:

Christ, The WAY ,The TRUTH and The LIFE...

did we agree there :icon_flower:......Do you therefore see Life Eternal ( age long) NOW... :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #465 on: February 26, 2009, 02:35:27 AM »
Hey TN :icon_flower:

Christ, The WAY ,The TRUTH and The LIFE...

did we agree there :icon_flower:......Do you therefore see Life Eternal ( age long) NOW... :icon_flower:

Hi dear Taffy,
I see eonian life giving way to immortal life which one might say is eternal life.

Yes Christ is the way and the truth and the life. Also:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #466 on: February 26, 2009, 02:45:08 AM »
Hey TN :icon_flower:

Christ, The WAY ,The TRUTH and The LIFE...

did we agree there :icon_flower:......Do you therefore see Life Eternal ( age long) NOW... :icon_flower:

Hi dear Taffy,
I see eonian life giving way to immortal life which one might say is eternal life.

Yes Christ is the way and the truth and the life. Also:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living."

Way to Go Bro Tony..Twice in one day.wowza... :icon_flower:

or one Might say Bro..age long Life is Now dwelling in the flesh( christ witin) Donning immortaliity..TIS NOW FOR me ... weve already MOVED from DEATH to LIFE....TIS complete...

and for those who believeth shall never DIE......I do struggle to see soul sleep..but see both sides.. :icon_flower:

« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 02:58:34 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #467 on: February 26, 2009, 04:29:52 AM »
Hey TN :icon_flower:

Christ, The WAY ,The TRUTH and The LIFE...

did we agree there :icon_flower:......Do you therefore see Life Eternal ( age long) NOW... :icon_flower:

Hi dear Taffy,
I see eonian life giving way to immortal life which one might say is eternal life.

Yes Christ is the way and the truth and the life. Also:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living."

Way to Go Bro Tony..Twice in one day.wowza... :icon_flower:

or one Might say Bro..age long Life is Now dwelling in the flesh( christ witin) Donning immortaliity..TIS NOW FOR me ... weve already MOVED from DEATH to LIFE....TIS complete...

and for those who believeth shall never DIE......I do struggle to see soul sleep..but see both sides.. :icon_flower:



I see what you are saying. Paul says " Contend the ideal contest of the faith. Get hold of eonian life, for which you were called, and you avow the ideal avowal in the sight of many witnesses."1Ti 6:12

I got hold of eonian life. I am alive already as if alive from among the dead and am living to God as a new creation in Christ.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #468 on: February 27, 2009, 05:01:43 AM »
Tony,

I did get that backwards. Simply a typo.  My bad.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 05:03:38 AM by Apocatastasis »

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #469 on: February 27, 2009, 05:05:46 AM »
Quote from: TonyN
But that is incorrect. The noun "God" does not modify the adjective "aionios" in Romans 16:26.


Did Talbott say that the noun modifies the adjective?  No.  He said that the adjective qualifies the noun.  Do you understand the difference, Tony?

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #470 on: February 27, 2009, 02:02:48 PM »
Quote from: TonyN
But that is incorrect. The noun "God" does not modify the adjective "aionios" in Romans 16:26.


Did Talbott say that the noun modifies the adjective?  No.  He said that the adjective qualifies the noun.  Do you understand the difference, Tony?

Talbott wrote: "Whatever its correct translation, "aionios" is clearly an adjective and must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies."

I would say that the adjective MODIFIES the noun, not qualifies the noun.

But Tom is actually making a statement that the adjective qualifies the noun but then makes the noun modify the adjective, by saying this: "the noun helps to determine the precise force of the adjective."

Tom stated: "As an illustration, set aside the Greek word "aionios" for a moment and consider the English word "everlasting." I think it safe to say that the basic meaning of this English word is indeed everlasting. So now consider how the precise force of "everlasting" varies depending upon which noun it qualifies. An everlasting struggle would no doubt be a struggle without end, an unending temporal process that never comes to a point of resolution and never gets completed. But an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation would hardly be an unending temporal process that never gets completed; instead, it would be a temporal process of limited duration, or perhaps simply an instantaneous event, that terminates in an irreversible state. So however popular it might be, the argument that "aionios" must have exactly the same force regardless of which noun it qualifies in Matthew 25:46 is clearly fallacious."

But Tom must prove from the New Testament that everlasting is used in such a modern, American way. He cannot and so he is arguing from a false premise. The fact is, the adjective aionios/eonian does have a set meaning and that meaning modifies the noun.

He states:

But in any event, if "kolasis" does signify punishment of a remedial or a corrective kind, as I think it does in Matthew 25:46, then we can reasonably think of such punishment as everlasting in the sense that its corrective effects literally endure forever.

So, in fact, he is making the noun modify the adjective. "The life" to Tom means that which comes out of the life and the punishing is that which comes out of the punishing. He says what comes out of each is everlasting and therefore aionios must be everlasting. But who says that which comes out of the life and chastening is everlasting? The Scriptures? Tom. And even IF Tom was right, that would not make sense that eonian life is to be thought of as that which comes out of the life, being everlasting, is pertaining to the eon. Do you see the untenable position Tom puts himself into?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #471 on: February 28, 2009, 09:37:10 AM »
Follow Jesus and we have the light of life.  Knowing God's manifestation is The Life.  In each age God is increasingly manifested so The Life is greater.  In each subsequent age there is an advance in the knowing of God so there is an increase in our responsibility regarding our relationship with God.  When more Life is available, "to whom much is given, much is required."  This is some of how I understand phrases like "eonian God," eonian life" and "eonian judgement."

The end of our faith is the salvation of our souls.  Not by climbing the mountain, but there is an inward way direct to the top.  We can attain the ultimate without the processing of the eons.  We can partake of the powers of the next age now.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #472 on: February 28, 2009, 01:31:53 PM »
Hi reFORMer,
Thanks for your excellent thoughts. I often wondered what lies beyond the eons/ages. Paul takes us to the very boundary of God's next great doing when he reveals to us that "God may be All in all in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Why does God have to be All in all people who were ever  brought into existence? Is it because God is going to take all of humanity into a whole new realm beyond the ages in which we will need Him to be All in us?

Will He have us create our own universes so we see what it is like what He went through? We have eternity to do other things.  But I do know that

1Co 2:9-10  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.  (10)  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you  :laughing7:
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #473 on: February 28, 2009, 02:35:41 PM »
We can attain the ultimate without the processing of the eons.  We can partake of the powers of the next age now.

 :cloud9: Amen, Paul was what the Lord called to me, an "overlapper", in that he walked in the flesh in his time allotted to him on earth, but he walked in the Spirit in things that were for the next age. Paul was the type of man that was to know Him, not after the flesh but after the Spirit. This RELATIONSHIP is what gave him preeminence over the other disciples, because his relationship MANIFESTED Him.

True authority is not in ruling over another after the flesh man, but true authority comes out of the heart of Christ within, for that heart has been circumcised and made upright, able to reproduce His nature in others, and it comes to you in the nature of a lover, ie. love is kind, love is gentle, ect.

Love does not beat the sheep with the rod of authority, presuming to take them captive for themselves that they might direct their path, but "marks" them by instilling the mind of Christ into them, and thereby separates them unto Him, that they can learn to hear His voice and follow Him for themselves, producing the fruit of a true shepherd who leads the flock to the Master, ie. "Where can we go, for thou hast the words of life?" Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #474 on: February 28, 2009, 03:48:09 PM »
What Cardinal has cannot be taught, it has to be caught [harpazo].  Therefore, I am hanging around in hopes of catching it. :laughing7:

In fact, I demand on a double portion.

8And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.

--2Kings 2



"harpazo"

to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away
caught