Author Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water  (Read 49314 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #375 on: February 04, 2009, 08:16:51 PM »
In the debate between you and Tony you frequently pointed to how Plato used certain words.
According to the article the dialect used in the Bible is (at points) very diffrent from later Greek writings.
With dangerous ground I mean this:
Even if you can 100% certain prove your interpretation of Aion/Aionios is the same as that of Plato it's not certain that your/Plato's word usage fits the dialect that the NT was written in.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #376 on: February 05, 2009, 12:48:57 AM »


Quote from: whitewings
Even if you can 100% certain prove your interpretation of Aion/Aionios is the same as that of Plato it's not certain that your/Plato's word usage fits the dialect that the NT was written in.

I never claimed that the Bible neccessarily uses these terms in the Platonic sense.  I simply noted the indisputable fact that Plato did use the terms to convey the notion of eternality, thus dispelling Tony's patently false assertion that aionios cannot possibly mean eternal.  The word carried connotations of timelessness from its inception.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #377 on: February 05, 2009, 03:00:16 AM »
In the debate between you and Tony you frequently pointed to how Plato used certain words.
According to the article the dialect used in the Bible is (at points) very diffrent from later Greek writings.
With dangerous ground I mean this:
Even if you can 100% certain prove your interpretation of Aion/Aionios is the same as that of Plato it's not certain that your/Plato's word usage fits the dialect that the NT was written in.

WW, very good point. What some fail to see is that Plato used aion and aionion within the treatise called Xronos or Time. He wrote that there is "was," "is" and "will be". He wrote that God "is". The eons and eonian are "was" and "will be" because they always change but God is changeless. He just is. IF Plato wanted us to think the eons or eonian is changeless and unending he would have said they are "is."

They are all part of time Plato wrote. Since they are all part of time they cannot be part of eternity. Therefore the eons and eonian are all part of time.

Some just have a mental block concerning this.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #378 on: February 05, 2009, 03:44:24 AM »
Plato wrote:

"These are the forms of time, which imitates eternity (aiwna/eon) and revolves according to a law of number."

Plain as day. Time imitates eternity (aiwna).

"Wherefore he resolved to have a moving image of eternity (aiwnos/eon), and when he set in order the heaven, he made this image eternal (aiwnion/eonian) but moving according to number, while eternity (aiwnion/eonian) itself rests in unity; and this image we call time (xronon)."

Time is the moving image of eternity (aiwnion).  Are we all clear on this?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #379 on: February 05, 2009, 08:06:54 AM »
Only speaking from a Bible forums pov now....

The usage of words certainly can be a nice discussion. It can also give a deeper understanding to the scriptures.
But the only thing of importance during those discussions is figuring out how Jesus used that word.
So if it can be proved that Jesus means 'house' when He says aion then I think we should just retranslate all Bibles and use the word house. Ofcourse that a very extreme example that's totally false.

That's not only towards you Apo but also about every article/e-book on the main site that uses Classical Greek writings to proof something.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #380 on: February 05, 2009, 01:18:54 PM »
Plato wrote:

"These are the forms of time, which imitates aiwna/eon and revolves according to a law of number."

Plain as day. Time imitates aiwna/eon.

"Wherefore he resolved to have a moving image of aiwnos/eon, and when he set in order the heaven, he made this image aiwnion/eonian but moving according to number, while  aiwnion/eonian itself rests in unity; and this image we call time (xronon)."

Time is the moving image of eonian/aiwnion.  Are we all clear on this?

since eonian is that which pertains to the eons, that which is eonian rests in the unity of the eons.

Since the Bible says all the eons end, it is impossible for eon to mean eternity. You would think that this point alone would be good enough for those who really want to honor God and take Him at His word, but there are those who would rather believe men than God.
[/quote]
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #381 on: February 05, 2009, 06:38:41 PM »
So are we all clear on Plato's use of aion/aionios? Can we see that for Plato time imitates aion/aionios?  Do we understand that Plato is saying that it is wrong to ascribe the passing of time to aion/aionios/aidion? 

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #382 on: February 05, 2009, 08:52:37 PM »
Plato is saying it is wrong to ascribe the passing of time to aidion (the imperceptible). He uses aion/aionios as the image we call time.


WHEN the father creator saw the creature which he had made moving and living, the created image of the imperceptible (aidion) gods, he rejoiced, and in his joy determined to make the copy still more like the original; and as this was imperceptible (aidion), he sought to make the universe eonian (aionios), so far as might be. Now the nature of the ideal being was eonian  (aionios), but to bestow this attribute in its fulness upon a creature was impossible. Wherefore he resolved to have a moving image of eon (aionos), and when he set in order the heaven, he made this image eon (aionos) but moving according to number, while eonian (aionion) itself rests in unity; and this image we call time.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #383 on: February 05, 2009, 09:15:41 PM »
"...he made this image eon (aionos) but moving according to number, while eonian (aionion) itself rests in unity..."

Does anyone else have a reading problem that needs to be worked on?

Offline sven

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #384 on: February 05, 2009, 10:09:05 PM »
to be honest, I think this discussion leads nowhere, there is no need in my opinion to prove that aionios never was used to express the idea of eternity, it's enough to prove that aionios was also commonly used to express a limited/ not infinite duration, and for this there is enough proof I think (in the NT: Romans 16:25, maybe also 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 both before eonian times, and maybe Philemon 15).

In the LXX these verses are interesting, maybe Apokastasis you want to check if translated properly:

Psalm 77:5(6)
I thought about ancient days; and I remembered the eonian years.

διελογισαμην ημερας αρχαιας και ετη αιωνια εμνησθην και εμελετησα

Isaiah 54:4
Do not fear that you have been disgraced, nor feel ashamed that you have been berated! You shall forget your eonian shame, and you shall no longer remember the scorn of your widowhood.

μη φοβου οτι κατησχυνθης μηδε εντραπης οτι ωνειδισθης οτι αισχυνην αιωνιον επιληση και ονειδος της χηρειας σου ου μη μνησθηση

Isaiah 61:4
And they shall build up the eonian ruins that were previously desolated.
They shall rise up and revive the ruined cities that were made desolate for many generations.

και οικοδομησουσιν ερημους αιωνιας εξηρημωμενας προτερον εξαναστησουσιν και καινιουσιν πολεις ερημους εξηρημωμενας εις γενεας

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #385 on: February 05, 2009, 10:39:46 PM »
This person did a Phd. on aion aionion beginning with Greek texts beginning with Homer to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453.

Not once was aion or aionion used of eternity.

It can be read here.
http://www.askelm.com/newsletter/l200501.htm

In 1999 Dr. Heleen M. Keizer published her Ph.D. dissertation in book form, Life, Time, Entirety: A Study of ΑΙΩΝ in Greek Literature and Philosophy and Philo (Universiteit van Amsterdam, 1999). In her study Dr. Keizer researched the Hebrew term olam, and every instance of the Greek terms aion, and aionios in extant Greek writings. She was able to do this through a collection of materials called "Thesaurus Linguae Graecae." Dr. Keizer was the first person to do such a complete survey of aion, and aionios.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #386 on: February 05, 2009, 11:03:15 PM »
to be honest, I think this discussion leads nowhere, there is no need in my opinion to prove that aionios never was used to express the idea of eternity, it's enough to prove that aionios was also commonly used to express a limited/ not infinite duration, and for this there is enough proof I think (in the NT: Romans 16:25, maybe also 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 both before eonian times, and maybe Philemon 15).

In the LXX these verses are interesting, maybe Apokastasis you want to check if translated properly:

Psalm 77:5(6)
I thought about ancient days; and I remembered the eonian years.

διελογισαμην ημερας αρχαιας και ετη αιωνια εμνησθην και εμελετησα

Isaiah 54:4
Do not fear that you have been disgraced, nor feel ashamed that you have been berated! You shall forget your eonian shame, and you shall no longer remember the scorn of your widowhood.

μη φοβου οτι κατησχυνθης μηδε εντραπης οτι ωνειδισθης οτι αισχυνην αιωνιον επιληση και ονειδος της χηρειας σου ου μη μνησθηση

Isaiah 61:4
And they shall build up the eonian ruins that were previously desolated.
They shall rise up and revive the ruined cities that were made desolate for many generations.

και οικοδομησουσιν ερημους αιωνιας εξηρημωμενας προτερον εξαναστησουσιν και καινιουσιν πολεις ερημους εξηρημωμενας εις γενεας


Sven . . .after reading 384 posts on this topic . . .I couldn't agree with you more bro!!

Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #387 on: February 05, 2009, 11:26:23 PM »
Well, yeah. They keep beating each other over the head with the same things over and over. Clearly, neither one is going to budge on their POV. Time to agree to disagree, IMO.

The article Tony posted though, I'd read the first time he linked it; and it seems pretty conclusive to me.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #388 on: February 06, 2009, 12:02:00 AM »
"...he made this image eon (aionos) but moving according to number, while eonian (aionion) itself rests in unity..."

Does anyone else have a reading problem that needs to be worked on?
Here is Perseus' rendition of Timaeus 37d:
Perseus:
[37d] wherefore He planned to make a movable image of eon, and, as He set in order the Heaven, of that eon which abides in unity He made an eonian image, moving according to number, even that which we have named Time.

So one can see it all depends upon which translation one uses.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #389 on: February 06, 2009, 01:48:54 AM »
God is a God of common sense isn't He? We got to be creatures with some common sense don't we? Of course we do. Holy common sense says that God is so far removed from time and space that we must be very careful not to put too much of ourselves into dealing with it as it will invariably lead us away from God rather than to Him.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #390 on: February 06, 2009, 03:54:59 AM »
Quote from: Tony
Here is Perseus' rendition of Timaeus 37d:
Perseus:
[37d] wherefore He planned to make a movable image of eon, and, as He set in order the Heaven, of that eon which abides in unity He made an eonian image, moving according to number, even that which we have named Time.


Readers,

Perhaps Tony could share a link with us, for when I consulted the Perseus Project, I found this translation for the portion of Timaeus 37d in question:

"...wherefore He planned to make a movable image of Eternity, and, as He set in order the Heaven, of that Eternity which abides in unity He made an eternal image, moving according to number, even that which we have named Time."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Plat.+Tim.+37d&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0180

Hmmm.......



« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 04:06:00 AM by Apocatastasis »

YoungYuni

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #391 on: February 06, 2009, 10:17:23 AM »
Hiya!

It means both.

It is just silliness to continue to bicker over a word especially when it has both definitions of age with limit and age without limit.

1 Timothy 6:3,4
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions.

All secular Greek scholars agree aionios contains both meanings and have been used as such both in Scripture and Classical usage.

It amazes me how blind people become when they have made up their mind to ignore the facts.

 :bgdance:

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #392 on: February 06, 2009, 02:04:19 PM »
Hiya!

It means both.

It is just silliness to continue to bicker over a word especially when it has both definitions of age with limit and age without limit.

1 Timothy 6:3,4
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions.

All secular Greek scholars agree aionios contains both meanings and have been used as such both in Scripture and Classical usage.

It amazes me how blind people become when they have made up their mind to ignore the facts.

 :bgdance:


Dear YungYuni, not all secular Greek scholars agree that aionios contains both meanings.

Secondly, it is a contradiction in terms to say that eonian can pertain to eternal in one instance and to age in another. God is not the author of confusion.

YY, for eonian to mean "pertaining to eternity" its nounal form must be "eternity." No eon is eternal. The Bible says they all end.

As for the Perseus rendering of Timaeus 37d I put in the Anglicized words just as I did for the Elpenor  rendering.

That rendering sure does put a nail in the coffin of those who believe Plato used aionion to mean eternal. Eonian is a moving image Plato calls TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME  TIME
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 03:24:22 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sheila

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #393 on: February 06, 2009, 03:19:34 PM »


   Hey Tony,

    moving image=time man remains in flesh[forming in his

image]....this age and the next age...time of his first visit in

  flesh..time of His return in spirit in the power and gloryof His

  Father.  those not forgiven in this age or next...if you didn't

hear his message the first time..you will reject Him at His

returning in spirit and not get it then either.

  But when you enter eternity[heavenly realm,no longer in the

  flesh/or time]you will have no choice but to accept it[truth]

  and there will be no longer a denying.

   Two wittnesses...first coming..secound coming

Offline sheila

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #394 on: February 06, 2009, 03:41:26 PM »

  John 17;20   My prayer is Not for them alone..I pray also

   for those who WILL beleive in me through THEIR MESSAGE..

   that all of them MAY BE ONE.

      Luke 18;8  Itell you, he will see that they get justice

     [justice= judgements of God/mind of God on the matter]

    and quickly. However, when the son of man ,comes, will

   he find faith on earth.

     Luke 19;12  He said ' A man of noble birth went to a distant

   country...TO HAVE HIMSELF APPOINTED KING AND

       THEN TO RETURN


    Matthew 24;30   At that time the sign of the son of man will

  appear in the sky...and all the nations of the earth will mourn.

 They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with

  power and great glory.     AND HE WILL SEND

    HIS ANGELS  WITH A LOUD TRUMPET CALL

     AND THEY WILL GATHER HIS ELECT

   FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END

     OF THE HEAVENS...TO THE OTHER

Offline sheila

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #395 on: February 06, 2009, 03:53:35 PM »


    1000 year reign of Christ...before All in ALL[eternal realm]

    1000 years..as a day..in the day ye eat of it ye shall die

    Adam's time in flesh 930 years

    days shortened for elects sake= 70 years

   first resurrection..those resurrected by Christ during

   time in their flesh=sit with Christ on HIS THRONE

   = reigning with Christ

....the rest of the dead did not come to life..til the 1000 years

  were over= after their time in flesh when ALL IN ALL= ETERNAL

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #396 on: February 06, 2009, 04:04:35 PM »
Sheila, while I appreciate your thoughts about eternity, the Bible is silent on that issue. It just never broaches the subject. The closest we can come to the idea would be via the word "immortality."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sheila

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #397 on: February 06, 2009, 04:53:50 PM »
   Further testimony

   1 Kings 4;25  During Solomons lifetime, Judah and Israel lived

 in safety. each man under his own vine and fig tree

  
   Micah 4;4,5

      In the Last Days   The Mountain of the Lord


      Everyman will sit under his own vine and fig tree,

     and no-one will make them afraid,For the Lord

  Almighty has spoken. All the nations may walk in the

  name of their gods.WE WILL WALK IN THE NAME OF

  THE LORD OUR GOD FOR EVER AND EVER


     Prophecy against Gog

    Rev 20;8  the Thousand years

     Satans doom

   When the 1000 years are over[time of Christ reign in flesh of

  beleivers coming to end= time of All in ALL approaching]

         Satan will be released from his prison and he will go out

  to deceive the nations in the four corners of the EARTH-

   GOG AND MAGOG- to gather them for battle- in number

  they are like the sand of the seashore. They marched across

   the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of

   God's people[camp = temporary dwelling in time/flesh]

   But fire came down from heaven and devoured them


  Ezekiel 38  A prophecy against Gog

  v2 Son of Man set your face against Gog of the land of Magog

  the cheif prince of Meshech and Tubal.Prophecy against him

   and say ' This is what the Sovereign Lord says,

  'I am against you,O'Gog, I will turn you around,put hooks in

  your jaws and bring you out with your whole army-

  your horses-your horseman fully armed and a great horde

  with large and small sheilds,all of them brandishing their

  swords. PERSIA,CUSH AND PUT WILL BE WITH THEM

  ALL WITH SHEILDS AND HELMENTS

   v8  AFTER MANY DAYS you will be called to arms[war]

  In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from

   war,whose people were gathered from many natons to the

   MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL,which had long been desolate.

   They had been brought out from the nations,and now

  all of them live in safety. -v29

     Ezekiel 40     - New Temple=NEW EARTH/ommortality

    Ezekiel 43 - THE GLORY RETURNS TO THE TEMPLE

   Ezekiel 47= the River fom the temple

   Rev 21  The New Jerusalem=New Temple=New

     earth=Incorruption=v 22=no temple=immortality

    those dwelling in new earth enter heavenly eternal city

   Rev 22  The River of LIFE

       IMMORTALITY

   

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #398 on: February 06, 2009, 05:03:45 PM »
I'm curious what this has to do with how Plato used aion/aionion?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sheila

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #399 on: February 06, 2009, 05:56:27 PM »


   Tony,

  You will not get the understanding you seek..from men that

  have the spirit of this world/or the wisdom of this world.

  it is put to shame in him.

    You will receive your answers from the spirit of truth,

   that will declare to you the things of Christ. This same

   spirit that bears wittness in prophecy and the Word of God.

  Will lead you into all knowledge. The interpretation of the

   Word of God,belongs to God


  scribes=a copier of manuscripts

  have you not heard the term..the lying pen of the scribes...

  it is testified of in the scriptures