Author Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water  (Read 51876 times)

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Offline peacemaker

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #350 on: February 01, 2009, 10:02:18 AM »

peacemaker, you put this in quotes:

"Where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth, and the bounds thereof; from an infinite age."

What translation were you quoting and what is the chapter and verse please? I think it is bogus.

Dearest Tony ...

One could say, It is a personal translation or quote, know you not the difference?

And, You can't dangle the bogus carrot in front of my face whilst riding some other donkey. You merely belittle when underestimating anything!

"If you are going to inflict a wound, bring a sword; not the dagger of dissection."

It's beginning to look like you have an escapist mentality of today, and practice exclusion, although I could be wrong.

peacemaker

« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 10:06:02 AM by peacemaker »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #351 on: February 01, 2009, 03:38:02 PM »

peacemaker, you put this in quotes:

"Where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth, and the bounds thereof; from an infinite age."

What translation were you quoting and what is the chapter and verse please? I think it is bogus.

Dearest Tony ...

One could say, It is a personal translation or quote, know you not the difference?

And, You can't dangle the bogus carrot in front of my face whilst riding some other donkey. You merely belittle when underestimating anything!

"If you are going to inflict a wound, bring a sword; not the dagger of dissection."

It's beginning to look like you have an escapist mentality of today, and practice exclusion, although I could be wrong.

peacemaker

I think you need to change your name from peacemaker to warmaker.

I'm sorry. I didn't know we were allowed to make up our own scriptures and put them in quotes like you did for Job. It was an honest question. I just wanted to know where the quote came from. Usually when you quote something you are telling the reader you are quoting a source which you found. Since you put this in quotes:
Quote
"Where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth, and the bounds thereof; from an infinite age."

I thought it was from soneome's Satanic Bible because I never read it in anyone's real bible.

You wrote:

Quote
It's beginning to look like you have an escapist mentality of today, and practice exclusion, although I could be wrong.


No, you are right. I'm trying to escape the strange notions people come up with these days regarding the Scriptures. I'm excluding the doctrines of demons from my life as much as I can. Hey, it's tough living high up in this rarefied air all alone in such extreme theological perfection. But, hey, someone's gotta do it  :laughing7:
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sven

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #352 on: February 01, 2009, 08:06:08 PM »
Psalm 77,5(6) seems very interesting:

διελογισαμην ημερας αρχαιας και ετη αιωνια εμνησθην και εμελετησα

cogitavi dies antiquos et annos aeternos in mente habui

does it speak about eternal (aionios) years?

can anyone translate the Greek verse literally, i'm only able to translate the latin verse, i think it means: I think of ancient days and have eternal years in mind



« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 08:10:39 PM by sven »

pneuma

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #353 on: February 01, 2009, 08:34:02 PM »
Quote
It is important to know that our future life goes beyone the eons due to putting on immortality.
Having eonian life for the believer is not immortality. Immortality allows us to live beyond the eons.

Exactly  :thumbsup:

pneuma

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #354 on: February 01, 2009, 08:42:41 PM »
Good post pneuma.... nice illustration Tony....  I can see this both ways.

Why doesn't everyone alive have aionios life right now?  After all, everyone's life is "pertaining to the aion" they live in.


Hi Bob, we do have aionios life right now, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The overcomer can walk in this life NOW. Which means our life does NOT pertain to the aion we live in but the aion that is to come.
We have been transplanted from the old aion into the new aion in Christ.



Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #355 on: February 01, 2009, 09:04:15 PM »
Psalm 77,5(6) seems very interesting:

διελογισαμην ημερας αρχαιας και ετη αιωνια εμνησθην και εμελετησα

cogitavi dies antiquos et annos aeternos in mente habui

does it speak about eternal (aionios) years?

can anyone translate the Greek verse literally, i'm only able to translate the latin verse, i think it means: I think of ancient days and have eternal years in mind


Psa 77:5 I took account of the days from aforetime, The years of the eons, saying,
Sven, it is impossible for there to be "eternal years." "eternal years is an oxymoron or contradiction in terms. That's like saying "stupid genius" or "tall short guy" or "a poor rich man."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sven

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #356 on: February 01, 2009, 09:42:11 PM »
i know Tony, eternal years makes no sense at all

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #357 on: February 01, 2009, 11:07:51 PM »

peacemaker, you put this in quotes:

"Where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth, and the bounds thereof; from an infinite age."

What translation were you quoting and what is the chapter and verse please? I think it is bogus.

Dearest Tony ...

One could say, It is a personal translation or quote, know you not the difference?

And, You can't dangle the bogus carrot in front of my face whilst riding some other donkey. You merely belittle when underestimating anything!

"If you are going to inflict a wound, bring a sword; not the dagger of dissection."

It's beginning to look like you have an escapist mentality of today, and practice exclusion, although I could be wrong.

peacemaker

I think you need to change your name from peacemaker to warmaker.

I'm sorry. I didn't know we were allowed to make up our own scriptures and put them in quotes like you did for Job. It was an honest question. I just wanted to know where the quote came from. Usually when you quote something you are telling the reader you are quoting a source which you found. Since you put this in quotes:
Quote
"Where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth, and the bounds thereof; from an infinite age."

I thought it was from soneome's Satanic Bible because I never read it in anyone's real bible.

You wrote:

Quote
It's beginning to look like you have an escapist mentality of today, and practice exclusion, although I could be wrong.


No, you are right. I'm trying to escape the strange notions people come up with these days regarding the Scriptures. I'm excluding the doctrines of demons from my life as much as I can. Hey, it's tough living high up in this rarefied air all alone in such extreme theological perfection. But, hey, someone's gotta do it  :laughing7:

An elitist individual, you say? What "a noble and lofty concept!"  :smile:

"...but my people, did not listen to my voice ... so then, I let them go on in the stubbornness of their own heart … that they might walk in their own counsels … age-abiding!"

No problem Tony!

Peacemaker (aka, war-maker, now, that's an idiom for you)

Offline sheila

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #358 on: February 02, 2009, 02:41:43 AM »


   Job 38;4 where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare if thou hast understanding. 5who hath laid the measures thereof,if thou knowest,or who hath stretched the line upon it.6 where upon are the foundations thereof fastened?
Or who laid the cornerstone thereof?

   found this

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #359 on: February 02, 2009, 07:18:27 AM »
Breathed into what God formed from the red dust was the breath of lives, plural!  In Greek there is zoe and bios.  When the books are opened, included is what is called, "The Lamb's Book of the Livings," plural.  As I now understand it, "eonian life" is knowing the only true God, the Father of Jesus and Jesus Whom He sends. (cf., Jn 17:3)  The degree to which I've entered into eonian life is how intimate I am with the Spirit that is in Jesus' name.  We are not strictly limited to the life pertaining to this eon, but may also, in partaking of the Divine nature, also partake of the powers of the eon to come.  Seeing how uncommon it is to be intimate with God, how even rarer are those mature enough to be entering into those things pertaining to eons subsequent to that into which we were born. (cf., Hb 6:6)

God manifests His life increasingly in successive ages.  It was less light in the preceding age.  In the age subsequent to this, when immortals discipline those being born into the world, it will be expected as normal that the "end" of one's life will be direct entrance into resurrection states rather than death.  So the judgments then will be more distinct, of greater glory and severity, because of increased light.  On into time God will even more manifest His light and life.  So much so that even matter and space will not be appearing due to the effulgence of glory emanating from the countenance of Who is on the Throne, the many-membered Christ. (cf., Rv 20:11)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 07:26:28 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline willieH

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #360 on: February 02, 2009, 08:03:11 AM »
willieH: Hi Sheila... :welcome: to Tentmaker!

Job 38;4 where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare if thou hast understanding. 5who hath laid the measures thereof,if thou knowest,or who hath stretched the line upon it.6 where upon are the foundations thereof fastened?
Or who laid the cornerstone thereof?

   found this

Job could not "declare understanding" because that recollection within FINITE existence, is cut off, until such time as GOD would choose to reveal it...

A few verses later, YHVH names that ALL His "SONS" were present at the Creation...

YHVH is herein making a point that FINITES cannot KNOW the ETERNAL... even though it is that from which we emerge...

In the Parable JESUS noted in Luke 15:11-32 ...the "Prodigal SON" was WITH the Father, ...LEFT, to become in a Temporary, LOST/dead condition... and then RETURNED to being the SON he always IS... which is FOUND/alive!

The "LOST" [dead] condition in TIME, has nothing to do with the "FOUND" [alive] condition in the ETERNAL... other than the EXPERIENTIAL GAIN of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... given to each of us by Father YHVH...

A few verses later YHVH says this Sheila...

Job 38:7 ...when the morning stars sang together, and ...ALL... the SONS of GOD [including Job] shouted for JOY...

ALL SONS includes ALL which have been manifest LOST IN ADAM, yet FOUND IN CHRIST... 

The word "SONS" in Job 38:7 is BEN  (#H1121 -- Strongs) which is the UNIVERSAL word in Hebrew for OFFSPRING/SONS... mentioned not only several times in Job 1 concerning his SONS, but in all GENEOLOGIES in the OT...

Though each SON, traverses TIME and gains the KNOWLEDGE... we ALWAYS ARE in ETERNITY... For YHVH ...IS... ALL in ALL... and NEVER CHANGES...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

 :cloud9:  willieH      :cloud9:

Offline sheila

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #361 on: February 02, 2009, 05:46:02 PM »
 :thumbsup:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #362 on: February 02, 2009, 06:00:02 PM »

God manifests His life increasingly in successive ages.  It was less light in the preceding age.  In the age subsequent to this, when immortals discipline those being born into the world, it will be expected as normal that the "end" of one's life will be direct entrance into resurrection states rather than death.  So the judgments then will be more distinct, of greater glory and severity, because of increased light.  On into time God will even more manifest His light and life.  So much so that even matter and space will not be appearing due to the effulgence of glory emanating from the countenance of Who is on the Throne, the many-membered Christ. (cf., Rv 20:11)

 :cloud9: I can see this. He told me that His judgments were becoming swifter, because of more light, but I didn't see it in the way that you have expressed it here, but I definitely do now. Blessings....

PS. Good post, WillieH  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #363 on: February 03, 2009, 02:09:57 AM »
I have been reading through J.W. Hanson's study on aion/aionios.  The article can be found here:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I wanted to see what Hanson had to say about Plato's use of aionios.  What I found was dissapointing.  Hanson was not a good scholar.

Quote from: J.W. Hanson
The gods he calls eternal, (aidios) but the soul and the corporeal nature, he says, are aiónios, belonging to time, and "all these," he says, "are part of time."


Yikes!  Au contraire. It is curious that Hanson missed something so obvious here.  He must have had an axe to grind.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #364 on: February 03, 2009, 02:19:02 AM »
Quote from: martin
Again, nobody's been using etymology to assert that aionios is always, consistently "a limited duration pertaining to_____(fill in the blank)."  It's just the facts of Septuignt and Apostolic.

Martin, you must not have been reading Tony's posts, for rather than get his hads dirty with the textual evidence, he has instead simply argued that because an adjective cannot go beyond the meaning of the noun it modifies, aionios cannot mean eternal.  His reasoning is fallacious, seeing that gorgeous originally modified gorge yet no longer carries the meaning of the suffixed noun.  Besides, the noun aion is used to convey the idea of imperishability in John 6:51.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #365 on: February 03, 2009, 03:25:25 PM »
When Alice went to Wonderland, she was met with a whole new strange world with interesting characters to boot.

Here is a little part of a conversation Alice had with Humpty Dumpty:

"Certainly," said Alice.
"And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!"
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,'" Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously.
"Of course you don't--till I tell you. I meant 'There's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"
"But, 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,'" Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master--that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again.
"They've a temper, some of them--particularly verbs: they're the proudest--adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs--however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!

Oh if only Alice had asked Humpty Dumpty what aionios meant!
Most lexicons are like going down the same rabbit hole dear Alice went down. In that wonderland, words can mean anything a person wants them to mean. It's all based upon one's authority such as king Humpty Dumpty had to make words mean whatever he wanted them to mean.

By the way, Lewis Carroll, who wrote Alice's Adventures in Wonderland was good friends with George MacDonald and both were universalists.

Of course, Universalist means one who believes God will eternally torment people in hell . . . at least that's what they believe it means down the rabbit hole.  :laughing7:
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 05:15:37 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #366 on: February 03, 2009, 03:29:45 PM »

Thats Super,  but God is Superior to anything Super.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #367 on: February 04, 2009, 05:41:19 AM »
If only Alice had asked Humpty Dumpty what aionios meant!

Hump(ty) – full of humps, bunches, or a shelter for ... ages?
Dump(ty) – to empty out, as from a container ... Enternal?

"All the Kings horses, and All the Kings men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty, together, again!"

Alice should have asked the carpenter for some adhesive glue that acts to unite both meanings
with understanding, leaving the kings wooden rocking horses behind. :king:
                                                                                                  :bdh:
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Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #368 on: February 04, 2009, 01:06:50 PM »
They should have used this paste to put Humpty together again:

When the driver of a huge trailer lost control of his rig, he plowed into an empty toll booth and smashed it to bits. Unhurt, he climbed down from the cab and looked around. In minutes, a repair truck pulled up and discharged a crew of workers. The men from the crew each picked up a broken piece of the former tollbooth and spread some kind of creamy white substance on it. Then they began fitting the pieces together. In less than a half hour, they had the entire tollbooth reconstructed and looking good as new.

"Amazing!" the truck driver said to the crew chief. "What was the white stuff you used to get all the pieces together?"

The crew chief said, "Oh, that was tollgate booth paste."

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #369 on: February 04, 2009, 02:30:07 PM »
I have been reading through J.W. Hanson's study on aion/aionios.  The article can be found here:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I wanted to see what Hanson had to say about Plato's use of aionios.  What I found was dissapointing.  Hanson was not a good scholar.

Quote from: J.W. Hanson
The gods he calls eternal, (aidios) but the soul and the corporeal nature, he says, are aiónios, belonging to time, and "all these," he says, "are part of time."


Yikes!  Au contraire. It is curious that Hanson missed something so obvious here.  He must have had an axe to grind.
Luckily you don't have an axe to grind....

Quote
The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible was written in the Greek language.  However, it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle; rather, we now know that it was written in Koine ("Coin-A" or "everyday") Greek, which was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman Empire.

Quote
Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators of the Bible followed the syntax of Classical Greek.  However, we now know that the language of the New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek, because it is Koine Greek.  Plus, make no mistake – this makes a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.


http://christianbiblesociety.org/gdisc.shtml
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #370 on: February 04, 2009, 03:28:11 PM »
I have been reading through J.W. Hanson's study on aion/aionios.  The article can be found here:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I wanted to see what Hanson had to say about Plato's use of aionios.  What I found was dissapointing.  Hanson was not a good scholar.

Quote from: J.W. Hanson
The gods he calls eternal, (aidios) but the soul and the corporeal nature, he says, are aiónios, belonging to time, and "all these," he says, "are part of time."


Yikes!  Au contraire. It is curious that Hanson missed something so obvious here.  He must have had an axe to grind.
Luckily you don't have an axe to grind....

Quote
The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible was written in the Greek language.  However, it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle; rather, we now know that it was written in Koine ("Coin-A" or "everyday") Greek, which was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman Empire.

Quote
Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators of the Bible followed the syntax of Classical Greek.  However, we now know that the language of the New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek, because it is Koine Greek.  Plus, make no mistake – this makes a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.


http://christianbiblesociety.org/gdisc.shtml


WhiteWings or anyone, do you have a copy of The Christian Bible from the link above? If so, how do they translate Matthew 25:46? and Romans 16:26?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #371 on: February 04, 2009, 03:56:47 PM »
jabcat has the Christian Bible and its Companion Reference Guide
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 04:00:08 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #372 on: February 04, 2009, 05:57:01 PM »
Quote from: whitewings
Luckily you don't have an axe to grind....

Luck has naught to do with it.  I choose not to let my theological preferences get in the way of the facts.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #373 on: February 04, 2009, 07:17:49 PM »
In that case, as fact seeker, have you looked at the 'facts' on that page?
It seems to say your Plato argument is possibly dangerous ground.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 07:22:50 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #374 on: February 04, 2009, 07:59:13 PM »
Talk to me, whitewings.  How exactly am I treading on dangerous ground?

And just what exactly do you think my "Plato argument" is?