Author Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water  (Read 45029 times)

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Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #300 on: January 29, 2009, 10:21:25 PM »
Paul, the term "infinite God" is not in the Bible. "infinite" is an unsound word.

If I am manager of the car lot and the car lot ceases to exist am I still manager of the car lot?
Likewise God is the God pertaining to the ages or eons. When the eons cease to exist (they can't be eternal) then God will cease being the eonian God. He will then become God All in all.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #301 on: January 29, 2009, 10:32:02 PM »
Quote from: doc
The verses are saying that those eating of the bread descending out of heaven "may not be dying", and shall "be living for the eon", but I am not seeing how that is really relevant to our discussion of contrasting things perishable and imperishable from v. 27 .


The relevance? "Perishable" describes earthly food and life whereas "imperishable" describes heavenly food and life.
Quote


"Living for the eon" here is the result of eating of Christ. Aionian life however, is something more than simply 'living for the eon'. Notice the verse doesn't say, "If anyone should be eating of this Bread, he shall have aionian life." which seems to be a different concept. Aionian life has qualities that transcend time. Living for the eon denotes simply 'living for the age'.

Well we agree on one important thing, namely that aionian life has qualities that transcend time.  But if I understand you, you are saying that aion/aionios does not itself carry the connotations of temporal-transcendence?




Yes, I guess I'd say that my understanding is that aion/ aionios doesn't necessarily carry the connotations of temporal transcendence, particularly aion.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #302 on: January 29, 2009, 10:37:36 PM »
Paul, the term "infinite God" is not in the Bible. "infinite" is an unsound word.

If I am manager of the car lot and the car lot ceases to exist am I still manager of the car lot?
Likewise God is the God pertaining to the ages or eons. When the eons cease to exist (they can't be eternal) then God will cease being the eonian God. He will then become God All in all.


Hi Tony,

Your example is inadequate.   God is the creator of what ages of time are and he will rule over any age of time that exists.

God will always be the God of Ages.



Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #303 on: January 29, 2009, 10:40:29 PM »
Quote from: doc
The verses are saying that those eating of the bread descending out of heaven "may not be dying", and shall "be living for the eon", but I am not seeing how that is really relevant to our discussion of contrasting things perishable and imperishable from v. 27 .


The relevance? "Perishable" describes earthly food and life whereas "imperishable" describes heavenly food and life.
Quote





Whoops, forgot this part.
 
Perishable is referring to earthly food specifically in v. 27, whereas imperishable in that passage is referring specifically to imperishable "food" (spiritual food). But it does not directly contrast perishable food with "imperishable" life. Remember that imperishable is a different word than aionion. Aionion life is mentioned in the passage, but again, the things being compared are natural and spiritual food. It's a subtle distinction perhaps, but an important one.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 11:08:55 PM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Nathan

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #304 on: January 29, 2009, 10:58:19 PM »
I gotta tell ya . . .I've been reading all the responses and posts on this thread and in the end . . .it's pretty much the opposite than what the title is insinuating for me.  It's clear that you have strong points of view . . .but nobody is willing to be the first to let it go at this point.  I do find it intriguing that there can be such a contrast over one simple word and after all these posts and comments . . . it doesn't seem to be any further along than it was at the first post.

How is it that we can't seem to get past this?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #305 on: January 29, 2009, 11:03:33 PM »


What would satisfy you Nathan?


Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #306 on: January 29, 2009, 11:11:24 PM »
Hmm. I'm not sure why my last post is appearing that way, but my response is the paragraph at the bottom of the blue quote section. There is no "/quote" at the end of my reply, so I'm not sure why it's showing up in the blue quote box.  :dontknow:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #307 on: January 29, 2009, 11:16:53 PM »
Gabe believes:
that aion/ aionios carries the connotations of temporal transcendence


Tony's reply:
Why is it that these things are so:

American is a noun.
American is the adjective.
Obama is the American president. His presidency pertains to America. It is not America transcending.

Heaven is a noun.
Heavenly is the adjective.
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The angel's realm pertains to Heaven. It is not heaven transcending.

But all of a sudden you go against all logic and state:
Aion is a noun.
Aionion is the adjective.
"These shall be going away into aionion life." The life does not pertain to the eon, it transcends the eon.

Welcome to Wonderland where anything goes!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 11:25:02 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #308 on: January 29, 2009, 11:20:26 PM »
Paul, the term "infinite God" is not in the Bible. "infinite" is an unsound word.

If I am manager of the car lot and the car lot ceases to exist am I still manager of the car lot?
Likewise God is the God pertaining to the ages or eons. When the eons cease to exist (they can't be eternal) then God will cease being the eonian God. He will then become God All in all.


Hi Tony,

Your example is inadequate.   God is the creator of what ages of time are and he will rule over any age of time that exists.

God will always be the God of Ages.

Paul, you are correct that God will rule over any age of time that exists. I have no problem with that. But there will come a time when there are no longer any ages because the Bible says all the ages will end. So how can God be over what no longer exists?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #309 on: January 29, 2009, 11:22:07 PM »
Doc wrote:
Yes, I guess I'd say that my understanding is that aion/ aionios doesn't necessarily carry the connotations of temporal transcendence, particularly aion.


Tony's reply:
Why is it that these things are so:

American is a noun.
American is the adjective.
Obama is the American president. His presidency pertains to America. It is not America transcending.

Heaven is a noun.
Heavenly is the adjective.
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The angel's realm pertains to Heaven. It is not heaven transcending.

But all of a sudden you go against all logic and state:
Aion is a noun.
Aionion is the adjective.
"These shall be going away into aionion life." The life does not pertain to the eon, it transcends the eon.

Welcome to Wonderland where anything goes!


Er, I didn't think I was arguing with you Tony. Unless I misunderstood what I wrote there, which I suppose is possible...  :mblush:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #310 on: January 29, 2009, 11:27:27 PM »
Doc, sorry, re-read my post. I reworded the beginning.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #311 on: January 29, 2009, 11:39:10 PM »


What would satisfy you Nathan?


Hi Paul..

Tis a Striving over words while the bigger picture remains lost..ITs like the saducees and Pharisees....is there a Resurrection OR not?.. Both FAILING to see WHO is the Resurrection to begin WITH... :sigh:


Its Nothing personal Bro....Tis what I see in the striving....ONE WORD\s...yikes. :icon_flower

ya Carry on ya all.. :icon_flower:

Just my two pennies..cents count for nothing here..less of course you exchange em... :icon_flower:



« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 11:47:20 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #312 on: January 30, 2009, 12:00:38 AM »


What would satisfy you Nathan?


Hi Paul..

Tis a Striving over words while the bigger picture remains lost..ITs like the saducees and Pharisees....is there a Resurrection OR not?.. Both FAILING to see WHO is the Resurrection to begin WITH... :sigh:


Its Nothing personal Bro....Tis what I see in the striving....ONE WORD\s...yikes. :icon_flower

ya Carry on ya all.. :icon_flower:

Just my two pennies..cents count for nothing here..less of course you exchange em... :icon_flower:

Taffy, I enjoy your sentiments. They are appropriate to what is going on. Yet . . . yea, you knew that was coming, didn't you? Yet what is really at stake here is, do we let the philosophers change our view of God and His goals or do we let the Scriptures shape our thinking?

Words are not unimportant. "Thy word have I hid in my heart."
And Paul spoke about approaching with sound words, you can tell who the conceited ones are, those of a decadent mind, deprived of the truth:

(1Ti 6:3)  If anyone is teaching differently and is not approaching with sound words, even those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching in accord with devoutness,
(1Ti 6:4)  he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions,
(1Ti 6:5)  altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."


(2Ti 1:13)  Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus."

(Tit 2:8)  with words sound, uncensurable, that the contrary one may be abashed, having nothing bad to say concerning us."

So it is important to establish these sound words such as aion and aionion.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #313 on: January 30, 2009, 12:06:19 AM »


What would satisfy you Nathan?


Hi Paul..

Tis a Striving over words while the bigger picture remains lost..ITs like the saducees and Pharisees....is there a Resurrection OR not?.. Both FAILING to see WHO is the Resurrection to begin WITH... :sigh:


Its Nothing personal Bro....Tis what I see in the striving....ONE WORD\s...yikes. :icon_flower

ya Carry on ya all.. :icon_flower:

Just my two pennies..cents count for nothing here..less of course you exchange em... :icon_flower:

Taffy, I enjoy your sentiments. They are appropriate to what is going on. Yet . . . yea, you knew that was coming, didn't you? Yet what is really at stake here is, do we let the philosophers change our view of God and His goals or do we let the Scriptures shape our thinking?

Words are not unimportant. "Thy word have I hid in my heart."
And Paul spoke about approaching with sound words, you can tell who the conceited ones are, those of a decadent mind, deprived of the truth:

(1Ti 6:3)  If anyone is teaching differently and is not approaching with sound words, even those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching in accord with devoutness,
(1Ti 6:4)  he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions,
(1Ti 6:5)  altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."


(2Ti 1:13)  Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus."

(Tit 2:8)  with words sound, uncensurable, that the contrary one may be abashed, having nothing bad to say concerning us."

So it is important to establish these sound words such as aion and aionion.
Hey Bud .. :icon_flower:
ya carry on ya all!   :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

A wholesome Tongue speaks wholesome word\s

Pro 15:4 A wholesome tongue [is] a tree of life: but perverseness therein [is] a breach in the spirit.

Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. 

ya Have fun now T...Love ya bro :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 12:36:28 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #314 on: January 30, 2009, 12:09:28 AM »
Paul, the term "infinite God" is not in the Bible. "infinite" is an unsound word.

If I am manager of the car lot and the car lot ceases to exist am I still manager of the car lot?
Likewise God is the God pertaining to the ages or eons. When the eons cease to exist (they can't be eternal) then God will cease being the eonian God. He will then become God All in all.


Hi Tony,

Your example is inadequate.   God is the creator of what ages of time are and he will rule over any age of time that exists.

God will always be the God of Ages.

Paul, you are correct that God will rule over any age of time that exists. I have no problem with that. But there will come a time when there are no longer any ages because the Bible says all the ages will end. So how can God be over what no longer exists?


Your using words I do not use Tony.   I never said God can rule over something that no longer exists, whether or not that can be possible with God is not my point.   I am saying that God IS the GOD OF AGES and always will be because He is the Creator of them.   








Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #315 on: January 30, 2009, 12:41:43 AM »
Paul, I can't seem to find that phrase "God of ages" in my bible. Can you give me the reference for that?

Let's think of this a minute.
Let's think of "God of ages" and an equivalent phrase "superintendent of schools."

This man is the superintendent of schools in our town.

Would he still be superintendent of schools if there were no schools to be superintendent over? if all the schools closed down and the town closed down and became a ghost town?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #316 on: January 30, 2009, 01:01:44 AM »
Quote from: Tony boy
Didn't I say aion and aionion have only one meaning in the New Testament? Yes, I did.

Yes, you did, and it remains a mere assertion.  The only reasoning you have used to support this assertion has been debunked since the first page of this thread (gorgeous).

Quote
If you demonstrated that aionios from its inception carried the meaning of eternity why do I disagree with you.

Because you won't let the facts get in your way.

Quote
It is impossible for aionios to be greater than its noun form.

1. The noun aion does refer to eternity at times (see John 6:27 where it is used to convey the idea of imperishability).
2. It is not impossible for an adjective to go beyond the meaning of its noun form. For instance, "hideous" derives from "hisda", meaning "fear".  However, when someone calls something hideous, they don't have in mind "pertaining to fear" as the meaning.

Quote
Plato never used aionios as "eternal." Just because some nit wit mistranslated Plato's use of aion and aionios as eternal does not mean Plato used it to mean eternal.

No need to personally attack the vast majority of Classical Greek scholars, Tony boy.  I've been trying to get you to actually analyze and discuss Timeaus 37d-e, but you keep evading the issue.  Why is that?  Is it because you don't have a leg to stand on? 

Tony, what did Plato mean by this:

"...the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal (aidion/imperceptible) essence; for we say that he "was," he "is," he "will be," but the truth is that "is" alone is properly attributed to him, and that "was" and "will be" only to be spoken of becoming in time, for they are motions, but that which is immovably the same cannot become older or younger by time, nor ever did or has become, or hereafter will be, older or younger, nor is subject at all to any of those states which affect moving and sensible things and of which generation is the cause."

Anyone else want to take a stab at it?

Quote
Gay homo's are happy about being homo...


How would you know? :laughing7:

Quote
The late and great Greek scholar and Universalist, William Barclay, understood aionios to be the word of eternity in the sense of timelessness. Wrote Barclay, in his New Testament Words:

"The essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing more than the life of God."


It is incorrect. Nouns do not modify the adjectives.


Barclay was not implying that nouns modify adjectives, you silly man.

 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 01:09:44 AM by Apocatastasis »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #317 on: January 30, 2009, 02:04:08 AM »
Paul, I can't seem to find that phrase "God of ages" in my bible. Can you give me the reference for that?

Let's think of this a minute.
Let's think of "God of ages" and an equivalent phrase "superintendent of schools."

This man is the superintendent of schools in our town.

Would he still be superintendent of schools if there were no schools to be superintendent over? if all the schools closed down and the town closed down and became a ghost town?



It would be equivalent if that superintendent created all schools and was sovereign over them all.  That is not the case, I am sorry but your superintendent cannot be compared to God in the same manner, you can inform him that his lofty thoughts of such a thing are foolishness to the Eternal God of Ages.   


Ro 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience--



"Eonion God"  or from the Ancient Greek  "Aionios  Theos". 

We could say according to how the words appear in the Greek that this Eonian God cannot be everlasting.  After all the Adjective modifies the Noun so then it must change God to a temporary being; we wouldn't want to have an unsound pattern of words now would we?

What is not problematic at all is an Eternal God of Ages because the proper knowlege of the known uses for Aionios modifies the Noun consistantly with the rest of scripture in that regaurd.   

It is both.  God created the Ages, so he the God OF them.     He is an eternal God at the same time.   He is the Eternal God of Ages.   He is the eternal God of Humans because he created them.     

That is really Super and God is Superior to everything Super.


Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #318 on: January 30, 2009, 02:10:04 AM »
Don't y'all think it peculiar that Tony, who doesn't know Greek, claims that aion/aionios never means "eternal" even though all reputable Greek lexicons say otherwise?  C'mon, Tony boy, at least formulate a logical argument for your case.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #319 on: January 30, 2009, 02:15:23 AM »
Agh..Such a Peculiar folk are we the Sons of Him... :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #320 on: January 30, 2009, 02:28:20 AM »
Don't y'all think it peculiar that Gabe, who doesn't know Greek, claims that aion/aionios  means "eternal" even though all reputable Greek lexicons say otherwise?  C'mon, Gabe boy, at least formulate a logical argument for your case.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #321 on: January 30, 2009, 02:48:49 AM »
Quote from: Tony boy
Don't y'all think it peculiar that Gabe, who doesn't know Greek, claims that aion/aionios  means "eternal" even though all reputable Greek lexicons say otherwise?


All reputable Greek lexicons say that aion/aionios does not mean "eternal"?  Do you know what "reputable" means? Did I read you correctly?

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #322 on: January 30, 2009, 02:49:45 AM »
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3100

For those of you who might think that I am closed-minded to Tony's position, or that I don't understand it, see the link above.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #323 on: January 30, 2009, 04:01:42 AM »
Quote from: Tony boy
Didn't I say aion and aionion have only one meaning in the New Testament? Yes, I did.

Yes, you did, and it remains a mere assertion.  The only reasoning you have used to support this assertion has been debunked since the first page of this thread (gorgeous).

I believe I may be dealing with someone who is not capable of logical reasoning. So I will post this for those of you who can use the brain God gave you. No slight to you Gabe.

Gabe, gorgeous does not pertain to that which is gorge. That is your illogical assertion. I wish I could come down to your level so you could understand the most basic grammar they begin to teach in 3rd grade. I will try to make this as simple as I can so you can understand it.
This is from the Miriam Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: gor·geous 
Pronunciation: \gor-jes\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English gorgeouse, from Middle French gorgias elegant, perhaps from gorgias wimple, from gorge throat
Date: 15th century
: splendidly or showily brilliant or magnificent
synonyms see splendid
— gor·geous·ly adverb
— gor·geous·ness noun
(end of quote)

Now then, Gabe, Gorgeous does not pertain to gorge. Gorgeous may have 600 years ago derived itself from gorge (notice Miriam Webster says ***perhaps*** from gorgias wimple, from gorge throat. Perhaps, Gabe. Perhaps. That does not mean "definately." And even if its etymology is derived from gorge that has nothing whatsoever to do whith what that adjective pertains to today. Today, Gabe, gorgeous pertains to gorgeousness. A gorgeous girl is talking about a girl which pertains to one having gorgeousness. It does not pertain to her gorge nor to her throat nor to her gorgias wimple. Do you understand this?

The etymology of aeon according to  Lennep:
"Says that it comes from Aó (to breathe) which suggests the idea of indefinite duration." (Etymologicum Linguæ Græcæ).
Now then, Gabe, no one in their right mind would say that aeon today or when the New Testament was written used aeon to mean "to breathe" and there therefore aionion meant pertaining to breathe. So your idea of gorgeous pertaining to gorge is ridiculous.



I believe you stated that

Quote
If you demonstrated that aionios from its inception carried the meaning of eternity why do I disagree with you.

Quote
Because you won't let the facts get in your way.

No, Gabe, that is the wrong answer. The answer is because you did not demonstrate that aionios from its inception carried the meaning of eternity.

Quote
Tony wrote:  It is impossible for aionios to be greater than its noun form.

Quote
Gabe wrote:
1. The noun aion does refer to eternity at times (see John 6:27 where it is used to convey the idea of imperishability).
2. It is not impossible for an adjective to go beyond the meaning of its noun form. For instance, "hideous" derives from "hisda", meaning "fear".  However, when someone calls something hideous, they don't have in mind "pertaining to fear" as the meaning.

Tony's reply:
Gabe, I realize you are incapable of understanding this. I don't say that to be mean. It is just that I have dealt with you over the years and I realize you are incapable of thinking properly. So I will answer the above two points for those who God has given the ability to properly think.

Your #1. above is not even close to logical. It is impossible for aion to refer to eternity. If it did the very word "aion" would not be used. The Greek word Aperantos "endless" would be used as in "endless genealogies" (1 Tim.1:4). To say that aion can be eternal is an oxymoron. It is a contradiction in terms. Also, in case you missed it, John 6:27 does not use the word aion but does use the adjectival form aionion.

Joh 6:27 Do not work for the food which is perishing, but for the food which is remaining for life eonian, which the Son of Mankind will be giving to you, for this One God, the Father, seals." 

There is the food that perishes and the food which is remaining for life eonian. It is impossible for eonian to mean "eternal" because it is an adjective and its noun form does not mean "eternal." If Jesus wanted us to know that the life He was talking about was eternal he would have used the word "aperantos." The food Jesus gives to His people will allow them to live for the duration of the next two eons. The eons are not eternal. The Bible says they all end. Now I have said that to you many many times. The Bible says the eons end. Yet you say that sometimes an eon can be eternal. You contradict the Bible. Now I know that means nothing to you but maybe it will mean something to those reading this.

Your #2 above likewise is complete nonsense.
You stated in #2 above this:
"2. It is not impossible for an adjective to go beyond the meaning of its noun form. For instance, "hideous" derives from "hisda", meaning "fear".  However, when someone calls something hideous, they don't have in mind "pertaining to fear" as the meaning."

Tony's reply: Dear reading audience, do you see the error in Gabe's logic in #2? The nounal form of hideous is not "fear." The noun of hideous is according to the Mirriam Webster dictionary: "hideousness." The noun form of hideous is also not hisda nor fear. Hideous cannot be greater than that which pertains to hideousness.

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Plato never used aionios as "eternal." Just because some nit wit mistranslated Plato's use of aion and aionios as eternal does not mean Plato used it to mean eternal.
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No need to personally attack the vast majority of Classical Greek scholars, Tony boy.  I've been trying to get you to actually analyze and discuss Timeaus 37d-e, but you keep evading the issue.  Why is that?  Is it because you don't have a leg to stand on?
 

Tony's reply: Yea the same majority of Greek "scholars" who translated "aionion kolasin" as "eternal torment"! LOL! What a bunch of idiotic losers. Gabe, you can't even understand the most basic grammar. Why do you think you would understand what I tell you about Timaeus, Gabe, not Timeaus. There is no Timeaus.

Tony, what did Plato mean by this:

"...the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal (aidion/imperceptible) essence; for we say that he "was," he "is," he "will be," but the truth is that "is" alone is properly attributed to him, and that "was" and "will be" only to be spoken of becoming in time, for they are motions, but that which is immovably the same cannot become older or younger by time, nor ever did or has become, or hereafter will be, older or younger, nor is subject at all to any of those states which affect moving and sensible things and of which generation is the cause."

Tony's reply:
News Flash for Gabe . . . we are not required to understand the philosophies which Paul tells us to beware. But just to amuse the reading audience I will tell them what it means because I know it will go right over your head.
Plato is saying it is wrong to attribute that which was and that which will be to the imperceptible essense (most likely he meant by "imperceptible essense" the essense of God. Because, according to Plato, God is neither was nor will be but "is." Only "is" is properly attributed to God. "Was" and "will be" according to Plato have reference only to time. Since God is immovable He just "is."  Was and will be are motions and are spoken of as time. Since, according to Plato, God "is" He is not becoming older or younger by time. He is not subject to the moving things such as the aeons. The aeons are not "is" but are "was" and "will be" for they are not eternal but are constantly moving.

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Gay homo's are happy about being homo...


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How would you know? :laughing7:

Well I don't know by personal experience if that is why you are asking.


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The late and great Greek scholar and Universalist, William Barclay, understood aionios to be the word of eternity in the sense of timelessness. Wrote Barclay, in his New Testament Words:

"The essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing more than the life of God."


It is incorrect. Nouns do not modify the adjectives.

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Gabe wrote: Barclay was not implying that nouns modify adjectives, you silly man.

Of course he was you silly child. When Barclay said "aionios is . . . "the word of deity" and "applied to God" he is meaning Romans 16:26 as in "the eonian God." So in fact he is telling us that "God" is modifying "eonian." And when he said that it describes "the life of God" he is telling us that the life of God modifies aionios to mean eternal.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #324 on: January 30, 2009, 04:33:47 AM »
Quote from: Tony
Now then, Gabe, Gorgeous does not pertain to gorge.

I didn't say gorgeous means "pertaining to gorge (the throat)".  I rather argued that by your logic, it would neccessarily have this meaning.

Tony, you wouldn't have made this mess for yourself had you not used that silly and oft-refuted grammatical argument.  If you want to argue that aion and aionios never refer to eternity in the Bible, then get your hands dirty with the actual textual analysis, but don't persist in advocating fallacious arguments. You say that an adjective cannot go beyond the meaning of its nounal root, but I debunked your assertion with an example.  The root of gorgeous is gorge - and this is widely accepted by the world of professional etymologists. If you want to argue to the contrary, then by all means do so - but anyone can see that the adjective has taken on a meaning that is not contained in its parent noun.  Just stop making these dumb arguments, Tony.  Save your dignity.

 
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Today, Gabe, gorgeous pertains to gorgeousness. A gorgeous girl is talking about a girl which pertains to one having gorgeousness. It does not pertain to her gorge nor to her throat nor to her gorgias wimple. Do you understand this?

Yes, Tony boy, that's my whole point.   I find it hard to believe that you really are as strikingly dense as you make yourself out to be.

 
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It is impossible for aion to refer to eternity.

Why is it impossible?  How did this impossibility escape the detection of the vast majority of Classical Biblical Greek scholarship?

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If it did the very word "aion" would not be used. The Greek word Aperantos "endless" would be used as in "endless genealogies" (1 Tim.1:4).

Were you not aware that the Bible makes use of synonyms?

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To say that aion can be eternal is an oxymoron.


Only if you assume that aion only refers to a period of time.  Tony, when you use your conclusion as a premise, you are committing circular reasoning.  Do you understand that?

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Also, in case you missed it, John 6:27 does not use the word aion but does use the adjectival form aionion.

I meant John 6:51.

There is the food that perishes and the food which is remaining for life eonian.

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It is impossible for eonian to mean "eternal" because it is an adjective and its noun form does not mean "eternal."

I don't expect you to understand this, Tony, but that is just like arguing that it is impossible for gorgeous to mean "beautiful" because it is an adjective and its noun form does not have that meaning.  I trust that the intelligent/honest readers can see the similarity.

As for John 6:27, notice that aionios is the one word used to convey the opposite idea of perishability.  Note that aion has the same function in v.51.

More to come....