Author Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water  (Read 44891 times)

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Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #150 on: January 28, 2009, 12:40:46 AM »
Hi all,

Yes this thread has been a bit puzzling to me... what turned me on to UR was learning the fact that aion was mistranslated as "forever" and likewise with aionios.  Now if you are saying that aionios could mean "forever/eternal" in some cases, that seems to weaken the case for UR quite a bit, although I would agree the whole bible in general supports UR.

I'm not sure of your arguments exactly, but it seems you are saying aionios could mean eternal, in the fact that it is describing something put forth by God.  ie. punishment is eternal in the way that it is God's punishment, and the effects of it will be eternal.  Or aionios could mean "forever" in sort of an imprecise "slang" way: ie. I might say "it took me forever to get home last night" - clearly I didn't mean literally forever, just a long time.

However it seems to me the bible is fairly precise in all of its words, and is much more consistent when:
- aion always means age
- aionios always means pertaining to the age.

That seems logical to me.  I thought this was the fundamental premise behind UR.  I'm no greek scholar, and have not studied any of plato's writings, but many other UR authors take this position:  Ray Smith (bible-truths), Martin Zender, many articles here on tentmaker etc.

To be honest I'm not quite sure why you guys are slagging on Tony so hard - he only seems to be presenting the position that I have seen many other authors take.  But I don't know the past history of what was discussed before, here and on other boards.

I'm sure I don't have the whole picture here, but I hope we can get to the bottom of the truth peacefully  :happy3:

Always learning,
Legoman


It's true that Tony is not the only one arguing from the position he holds. It's also true that Apo is not the only one arguing from the position he holds. Both arguments I have seen come from universalists.

If I understand correctly, Apo's point is that; even if Aionios can sometimes be understood as "eternal" (Barclay), the words' connotation does not necessarily or even probably carry the sense of absolute "endlessness", as we typically understand the English word "eternal"; particularly with respect to certain referents like punishment, etc. An argument can be made that aionios as "eternal" means something approximating, "pertaining to 'eternity'", or "coming from the eternal One."


My point is that the truth of UR doesn't ultimately come down solely to the meaning of one word, regardless of your take on Aionios. If it did, I would still be on the fence regarding UR.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #151 on: January 28, 2009, 12:49:15 AM »


Agreed Doc,  it's the confidence beyond the written word that I see, it's simple as that for me.


Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2009, 12:58:29 AM »


Agreed Doc,  it's the confidence beyond the written word that I see, it's simple as that for me.




That's certainly part of it, but for me, it's also confidence in the rest of the written word as well.  :thumbsup:

There are too many clear things in scripture that point to UR to dispute it over the precise meaning(s) of one word.  :cloud9:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #153 on: January 28, 2009, 01:01:45 AM »


Agreed Doc,  it's the confidence beyond the written word that I see, it's simple as that for me.




That's certainly part of it, but for me, it's also confidence in the rest of the written word as well.  :thumbsup:

There are too many clear things in scripture that point to UR to dispute it over the precise meaning(s) of one word.  :cloud9:


For sure.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #154 on: January 28, 2009, 02:54:13 AM »
Quote from: Doc
My point is that the truth of UR doesn't ultimately come down solely to the meaning of one word, regardless of your take on Aionios. If it did, I would still be on the fence regarding UR.

My sentiments exactly.  It is a shame that folks like Tony will place way too much emphasis on aion/aionios.  It really undermines their witness to UR.

Zeek

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #155 on: January 28, 2009, 02:56:35 AM »
Quote from: Doc
My point is that the truth of UR doesn't ultimately come down solely to the meaning of one word, regardless of your take on Aionios. If it did, I would still be on the fence regarding UR.

My sentiments exactly.  It is a shame that folks like Tony will place way too much emphasis on aion/aionios.  It really undermines their witness to UR.

It's not a shame, it's what led me to believe in UR. 

This whole thread to me, looks like two egos going at it, based on unreleased history.


Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #156 on: January 28, 2009, 03:03:23 AM »
Quote from: legoman
Now if you are saying that aionios could mean "forever/eternal" in some cases, that seems to weaken the case for UR quite a bit...

It does not weaken it at all, my friend.  With time I think you will see this.  And remember, there are other folks who are not URists who argue that aionios does not mean "eternal".

Quote
I'm not sure of your arguments exactly, but it seems you are saying aionios could mean eternal, in the fact that it is describing something put forth by God.  ie. punishment is eternal in the way that it is God's punishment, and the effects of it will be eternal.


Yes, I think you have a handle on what I'm saying.  


Quote
However it seems to me the bible is fairly precise in all of its words, and is much more consistent when:
- aion always means age
- aionios always means pertaining to the age.

It is not uncommon in the Bible for a word to mean different things in different contexts.  Moreover, the Bible is no less consistent if aio/aionios do not eternity/eternal.  More complex?  Yes.  Less consistent? No.

Quote
 I thought this was the fundamental premise behind UR.

The fundamental premise behind UR involves the nature of God, not the meaning of aion/aionios.

 
Quote
To be honest I'm not quite sure why you guys are slagging on Tony so hard - he only seems to be presenting the position that I have seen many other authors take.  But I don't know the past history of what was discussed before, here and on other boards.

I'm on Tony simply because his arguments are disengenuous.  Recall his arguments regarding Timaeus 37d, "gorgeous", and the root fallacy.  I'd like to get your opinion on those.

Quote
I'm sure I don't have the whole picture here, but I hope we can get to the bottom of the truth peacefully  


Amen.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #157 on: January 28, 2009, 03:05:09 AM »
Quote from: Zeek
It's not a shame, it's what led me to believe in UR. 


It no more leads to UR than to annihilationism.  I encourage you to rethink your statement.
Quote
This whole thread to me, looks like two egos going at it, based on unreleased history.

Oh, there are egos involved..and history...but there are also arguments being presented that ought to be analyzed by the reader.  Let me know if you have any comments or questions.


Zeek

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #158 on: January 28, 2009, 03:08:56 AM »
Quote from: Zeek
It's not a shame, it's what led me to believe in UR. 


It no more leads to UR than to annihilationism.  I encourage you to rethink your statement.
Quote
This whole thread to me, looks like two egos going at it, based on unreleased history.

Oh, there are egos involved..and history...but there are also arguments being presented that ought to be analyzed by the reader.  Let me know if you have any comments or questions.



BUT IT LED ME TO UR, NOT ANNIH. SO NOT A SHAME, BUT A PRAISE GOD.

and here is the article that led me down the path.

http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

GOD WORKS IN MANY WAYS.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #159 on: January 28, 2009, 03:10:03 AM »
Quote from: zeek
BUT IT LED ME TO UR, NOT ANNIH. SO NOT A SHAME, BUT A PRAISE GOD.

Does that make it true?

Zeek

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #160 on: January 28, 2009, 03:10:41 AM »
Quote from: zeek
BUT IT LED ME TO UR, NOT ANNIH. SO NOT A SHAME, BUT A PRAISE GOD.

Does that make it true?

does it matter.  It was God's method for opening my eyes to TRUTH/HIM/LOVE
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 03:13:23 AM by Zeek »

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #161 on: January 28, 2009, 03:11:58 AM »
Quote
1. Euphemistic Usage Outside Job: The number of passages in which we find the phenomenon just described is very limited. One of the best examples is recorded in 1 Kings 21:10, 13. Jezebel asked for false witnesses to testify against Naboth saying that they heard him "cursing [blessing]" God and the king. On that basis Naboth received the death penalty. Obviously, no one is to be stoned for blessing God;


You really ought to read through this, Tony:

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/jobs%20wife.pdf

Here's another bit:

Quote
3. Euphemistic Usage in the Speech of Job's Wife: Did Job's wife say "Curse" or "Bless God and die"? Job's answer seems to support the idea that "bless" is being used here as a euphemism for "curse." If she is encouraging him to bless God and die, why did Job say to her "You are talking like a foolish woman" (Job 2:10, NIV)? Whatever she was trying to say, Job found it inconsistent with devotion to God

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #162 on: January 28, 2009, 03:13:28 AM »
Zeek, and for others who know better (such as most who know something about Biblical Greek), your position on aionios is either dishonest or uninformed.  Either way, many people are turned off from UR in this way.

Zeek

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #163 on: January 28, 2009, 03:14:09 AM »
Zeek, and for others who know better (such as most who know something about Biblical Greek), your position on aionios is either dishonest or uninformed.  Either way, many people are turned off from UR in this way.

but don't dismiss that many are turned onto UR this way

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #164 on: January 28, 2009, 03:20:14 AM »
Tony,

You know what you ought to do, just for shoots and giggles?  Find me one Hebrew scholar who would deny that barakh is a euphemism for "curse".  Just do it, Tony.  Just find me one scholar.  Just do it.

Zeek

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #165 on: January 28, 2009, 03:22:18 AM »
Here is another article that assisted in my belief in UR. 

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #166 on: January 28, 2009, 03:29:10 AM »
Tony,

You know what you ought to do, just for shoots and giggles?  Find me one Hebrew scholar who would deny that barakh is a euphemism for "curse".  Just do it, Tony.  Just find me one scholar.  Just do it.

Lazarus, just find me one priest, just one high priest, just one rabbi who will tell you that Jesus is the Messiah. Just one Lazarus. Just do it. Just find me one. Just do it. Caiaphas 34 A.D.

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #167 on: January 28, 2009, 03:29:29 AM »
Tony,

You know what you ought to do, just for shoots and giggles?  Find me one Hebrew scholar who would deny that barakh is a euphemism for "curse".  Just do it, Tony.  Just find me one scholar.  Just do it.


Oh great;

So, our new president could be a blessing or a curse?... :mshock:
Let's hope he's not a euphemism, eh?  :laughing7:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #168 on: January 28, 2009, 03:32:29 AM »
Tony!  How ya doing, ol pal?  Care to address this?

1. Euphemistic Usage Outside Job: The number of passages in which we find the phenomenon just described is very limited. One of the best examples is recorded in 1 Kings 21:10, 13. Jezebel asked for false witnesses to testify against Naboth saying that they heard him "cursing [blessing]" God and the king. On that basis Naboth received the death penalty. Obviously, no one is to be stoned for blessing God;


Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #169 on: January 28, 2009, 03:38:28 AM »
Quote from: Tony
Lazarus,

Oh, I like that!

Quote
Lazarus, just find me one priest, just one high priest, just one rabbi who will tell you that Jesus is the Messiah. Just one Lazarus. Just do it. Just find me one. Just do it. Caiaphas 34 A.D.

Oh I forgot.  Jews are not able to translate their own language unless they accept Jesus.

Silly me......

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #170 on: January 28, 2009, 03:44:15 AM »
Doc, Gabe, A.K.A apokatastasis believes that words can have two completely opposite meanings in the Bible. He believes that eonian can stand for something having a beginning and an end and also stand for something having no beginning and no end (eternal).

So I asked him to show me a word in the Bible where this could be true. He showed me Job where the Hebrew word barak is translated as "curse."

He then quoted these passages:

(Job 1:11)  But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 2:5)  But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 2:9)  Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

But Satan did not use the English word "curse" but the Hebrew word "barak" in Job 1:11.
Satan did not use the English word "curse" but the Hebrew word "barak" in Job 2:5.
Job's wife did not use the English word "curse" but the Hebrew word "barak" in Job 2:9.

Curse is qalal in Hebrew and is first used in Genesis 8:1
Gen 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

God did not say He would not again bless the ground.

Isa 5:20-21  Woe to those saying for evil, good, and for good, evil, placing darkness for light and light for darkness, placing bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"  (21)  Woe to those wise in their own eyes, and in front of their own face have understanding!"


Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #171 on: January 28, 2009, 03:48:48 AM »
Tony,

Don't sell yourself short!

Address this:

Quote
Euphemistic Usage Outside Job: The number of passages in which we find the phenomenon just described is very limited. One of the best examples is recorded in 1 Kings 21:10, 13. Jezebel asked for false witnesses to testify against Naboth saying that they heard him "cursing [blessing]" God and the king. On that basis Naboth received the death penalty. Obviously, no one is to be stoned for blessing God;

And this:

 
Quote
Euphemistic Usage in the Speech of Job's Wife: Did Job's wife say "Curse" or "Bless God and die"? Job's answer seems to support the idea that "bless" is being used here as a euphemism for "curse." If she is encouraging him to bless God and die, why did Job say to her "You are talking like a foolish woman" (Job 2:10, NIV)? Whatever she was trying to say, Job found it inconsistent with devotion to God



Offline Doc

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #172 on: January 28, 2009, 03:56:41 AM »
Doc, Gabe, A.K.A apokatastasis believes that words can have two completely opposite meanings in the Bible. He believes that eonian can stand for something having a beginning and an end and also stand for something having no beginning and no end (eternal).

So I asked him to show me a word in the Bible where this could be true. He showed me Job where the Hebrew word barak is translated as "curse."

He then quoted these passages:

(Job 1:11)  But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 2:5)  But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 2:9)  Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

But Satan did not use the English word "curse" but the Hebrew word "barak" in Job 1:11.
Satan did not use the English word "curse" but the Hebrew word "barak" in Job 2:5.
Job's wife did not use the English word "curse" but the Hebrew word "barak" in Job 2:9.

Curse is qalal in Hebrew and is first used in Genesis 8:1
Gen 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

God did not say He would not again bless the ground.

Isa 5:20-21  Woe to those saying for evil, good, and for good, evil, placing darkness for light and light for darkness, placing bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"  (21)  Woe to those wise in their own eyes, and in front of their own face have understanding!"




I understand where you're coming from, Tony.
I am having trouble figuring out how "bless" makes sense in the context of Job 2:5. I'm not arguing with you here: I'm genuinely puzzled...

Here is the definition that I pulled from an online interlinear of Barak

    
to bless, kneel
(Qal)
to kneel
to bless
(Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
(Piel) to bless
(Pual) to be blessed, be adored
(Hiphil) to cause to kneel
(Hithpael) to bless oneself
to praise, salute, curse

The last definition here is listed as a secondary definition.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 04:05:20 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline legoman

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #173 on: January 28, 2009, 03:57:49 AM »
Quote from: legoman
Now if you are saying that aionios could mean "forever/eternal" in some cases, that seems to weaken the case for UR quite a bit...

It does not weaken it at all, my friend.  With time I think you will see this.  And remember, there are other folks who are not URists who argue that aionios does not mean "eternal".

Quote
I'm not sure of your arguments exactly, but it seems you are saying aionios could mean eternal, in the fact that it is describing something put forth by God.  ie. punishment is eternal in the way that it is God's punishment, and the effects of it will be eternal.


Yes, I think you have a handle on what I'm saying.  


Quote
However it seems to me the bible is fairly precise in all of its words, and is much more consistent when:
- aion always means age
- aionios always means pertaining to the age.

It is not uncommon in the Bible for a word to mean different things in different contexts.  Moreover, the Bible is no less consistent if aio/aionios do not eternity/eternal.  More complex?  Yes.  Less consistent? No.

Quote
 I thought this was the fundamental premise behind UR.

The fundamental premise behind UR involves the nature of God, not the meaning of aion/aionios.

 
Quote
To be honest I'm not quite sure why you guys are slagging on Tony so hard - he only seems to be presenting the position that I have seen many other authors take.  But I don't know the past history of what was discussed before, here and on other boards.

I'm on Tony simply because his arguments are disengenuous.  Recall his arguments regarding Timaeus 37d, "gorgeous", and the root fallacy.  I'd like to get your opinion on those.

Quote
I'm sure I don't have the whole picture here, but I hope we can get to the bottom of the truth peacefully  


Amen.


Thanks everyone for your responses.

Apocastasis, yes I agree the fundamental premise of UR is about God and his love - "premise" was not the right word in my original statement.  But for me it was one of the fundamental concepts that caused me to question ET and really investigate UR.

So yes - whether aionios refers to "pertaining to the ages" or "eternalness" - that is up for debate, but in general we can agree on UR.  In your view does aion always refer to an "age"?  

I will continue further research into the matter, as I continue to research all things that lead to the truth, although it will probably take me some time (possibly years).  Is the Plato stuff really required reading to fully understand this?  I have read mixed reviews on Plato - some say its good, others say its irrelevant as he didn't write/influence the bible - biblical words gain their meaning based on their contextual usage in the scriptures.

Personally, at this point in time for me, it seems to make the most sense aionios always means "pertaining to the aions" - this seems the most consistent way to apply the word based on context and meaning of the root word (perhaps this is a root fallacy - I don't know).  Anyway I would have to see some research based on scriptures that supports the other view.

Do you have any links/articles which more fully explain this viewpoint?  I always welcome other viewpoints.  As I have learned, its best to evaluate all angles when searching for the truth.

Thanks,
Legoman

Offline Tony N

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Re: Aionios: Let's clear the water
« Reply #174 on: January 28, 2009, 04:02:49 AM »
Tony!  How ya doing, ol pal?  Care to address this?

1. Euphemistic Usage Outside Job: The number of passages in which we find the phenomenon just described is very limited. One of the best examples is recorded in 1 Kings 21:10, 13. Jezebel asked for false witnesses to testify against Naboth saying that they heard him "cursing [blessing]" God and the king. On that basis Naboth received the death penalty. Obviously, no one is to be stoned for blessing God;

Gabe, if that is your best example then it is still lacking in trying to prove your point that words in the Bible can have two opposite meanings and thus hope to prove that eonian can have two completely disparate meanings.

1Ki 21:10 and cause two men--sons of worthlessness--to sit over-against him, and they testify of him, saying, You have blessed Elohim and Melech; and they have brought him out, and stoned him, and he dies..
1Ki 21:13 and two men--sons of worthlessness--come in, and sit over-against him, and the men of worthlessness testify of him, even Naboth, before the people, saying, `Naboth blessed Elohim and Melech;' and they take him out to the outside of the city, and stone him with stones, and he dies;" (Concordant Literal)

1Ki 21:10  and cause two men--sons of worthlessness--to sit over-against him, and they testify of him, saying, Thou hast blessed God and Melech; and they have brought him out, and stoned him, and he dieth.'
 and two men--sons of worthlessness--come in, and sit over-against him, and the men of worthlessness testify of him, even Naboth, before the people, saying, `Naboth blessed God and Melech;' and they take him out to the outside of the city, and stone him with stones, and he dieth; (Young's Literal Translation)

Since "elohim" can be either capitalized or not (god or God) according to what the translator believes it could be . . .
Parkhurst contends, "Thou hast blessed the false gods and Molech," and so based upon that, Naboth was stoned.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 04:06:17 AM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.