willieH: Hi Molly...
Not inclined to catch up with all the replies on this thread (quite busy!)... but a word or two...
I think you have raised a good point...
You talk about the Son handing the kingdom to the Father as though that is the end of the reign of Jesus but these verses in Revelation tell us he will reign for ever and ever--and I take that in that context to be eternity. He shall reign for ever and ever.
Is there ever or could there ever have been a place where the WORD
did not reign?
All that is seen in JESUS
"handing over the kingdom" to the Father, is the WORD
PERFECTLY returning to its ORIGIN... which is the HEART
of GOD... that the HEART
be shown and REVEALED to be ALL in
Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Is that ever going to end? unto him that sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb for ever and ever...
This discussion is very good, but also [IMO] is missing an important portion...
I think you have posed a very valid notion here, Molly... But the question (IMO) should also contain this idea...
Did BLESSING and GLORY, HONOR ever have a STARTING POINT? Concerning TIME, YES it did for TIME had a starting point! ...but concerning these elements (Blessing, Glory & Honor), NO! ALL these 3 have ALWAYS BEEN
... which "ALWAYS" makes them ALL, "EVER" ...lasting.
is EVERLASTING and His WORD
is EVERLASTING (without a point of generation -- which It
IS), can it be said that in the opposite direction of the flow of TIME (which is NOT "toward an end"), was there ever a point in which these attributes were NOT existent? And if so, WHY NOT?
Also, to note that "BLESSING, HONOR & GLORY", had a point of generation, confines them, and presents the idea of a CHANGE in the circumstances of YHVH
God, for it contends that there was a point in which HE WAS NOT -- blessed, and glorified and honored!
What makes the MOST REASONABLE sense in a "NO CHANGE scenario" is that ALL things in the realm in which YHVH
ALWAYS IS -- just ALWAYS ARE!
Because WE as finite human beings CONFINED to the movement of LINEAR TIME, who's motion is CONTINUALLY FORWARD, and which displays BEGINNINS and ENDINGS to all things within IT... Does not mean that, that -- to which we have NO
ACCESS -- that the word ETERNAL in its FULLEST and COMPLETE sense, ...IS a realm that YHVH
and HIS WORD
exist, ...and in that EXISTENCE (unlike TIME), has NO BEGINNING... had no point of generation, and is NOT in motion
(by heading) toward an END either...
If something (time) has a point of beginning and shall end... how can it be used to measure that
which has neither property? EXAMPLE: --- In direct comparision --- A small "planet" (earth) in the midst of an unending Universe has its confining parameters which display its manufacture (beginning), its length, breadth and height, its durability as well as confined and finite occupants, ALL heading to an END...
Each of those FINITES in turn, which step OUTSIDE of the "planet" by stepping OUTSIDE of its TIME CONFINEMENTS, are each thereby subjected to DEATH to an INFINITE degree...
However... the UNIVERSE which is surrounding the "planet" (which is SIMULTANEOUSLY surrounding the "planet" at its every border), is BEYOND that "planet" -- and is without ANY of these confining elements, stretching forever in every DIRECTION continually, and is NOT in motion in any particular direction... and furthermore is not threatened by the TIME impositions of DEATH, END or even BEGINNING!
Where does the said Universe BEGIN? Where does it END? In which direction in TIME or MOTION is it headed, if any?
A small boat in the middle of the ocean gives the same picture.
is something that is REVEALED
... That which is "REVEALED
" was and IS there to begin with... so the WORD
in the DIVINELY "creating" sense, ...is not bringing forth something that previously was NOT there, ...it is UNVEILING something that has ALWAYS BEEN there...
IOW... the CREATION as we observe is a matter of the WORDS
of the HEART of YHVH
, which were UNEXPRESSED... the CREATION did not have a "BEGINNING" as we might tend to percieve... it had a REVEALING... it IS emergent of the WORD
which has ALWAYS BEEN, and therefore has the same ETERNAL and UNCHANGING properties as the WORD
, being a REVELATION of IT.
The Lord says that NATURE gives its "TESTIMONY" of Him
... NATURE is not just confined to the Earth... NATURE is ALL that is observable from
the earth as well... for the LIGHTS in the Sky were created FOR earth to light it, warm it, give LIFE unto it... and also IN THIS, ..."TESTIFY" of Him
As I see it, they TESTIFY that He is without the CONFINEMENTS that are seen of Earth, time, and existence as observed by, and confine men...
In this thread it has been mentioned that SCRIPTURE notes a "new" Heaven and a "new" earth
, however... this mention is found in SYMBOLIC TEXT [Revelation of JESUS CHRIST
-- which is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST
... it is NOT literal... Something REVEALED was THERE to begin with... When a PAINTING is revealed in an art show, it does not come into being upon the veil being removed, it was indeed THERE at the art show... albeit veiled...
This "Heaven" in Revelation cannot be "new" in the sense of BEGINNING (as if some "do over"), because it is a place in which RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells
... which said "Heaven" is without
GOD's RIGHTEOUSNESS has NO
BEGINNING, ...He has ALWAYS been, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE RIGHTEOUS... and wherever HE DWELLS, RIGHTEOUSNESS is also there...
The "HEAVEN" spoken of in this SYMBOLISM is not some "RE-CREATED Universe", ...it is the RE-CREATED HEARTS [enlarged by the knowledge] of those who entered TIME... For it is IN the HEARTS of men, which IS the throne of YHVH
God and the "where" He dwells... and is about to be REVEALED as ETERNAL by that MANIFEST REVEALING of His "said SONS" -- Rom 8:19-23
The "new" part is that those who entered into the KNOWLEDGE of G & E, have re-entered [returned to] the place -- ETERNITY -- from which they emerged... with KNOWLEDGE they did NOT have prior to their emergent existence in TIME...
Same SONS... just with NEW [Heavenly] information... which GLORIFIES, HONORS and BLESSES the ONE which has REVEALED that information TO THEM... they being EXACTLY as He is, which is WITH the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...
The KNOWLEDGE in both aspects (G & E) given COMPLETELY to each SON, to its PERFECTLY REVEALED totality, as KNOWN by GOD in His HEART.