Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!

[Chris]

All I am conveying is what I am seeing concerning the subject of this thread, I haven't expected you to do anything.

I said "we". I was just a general question. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?  

The problem here what I have been talking about.   Indeed, even if Molly disagrees,  we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends,  however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons.   There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

Can you give the verse, please?

Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying,  "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

So you see the "he" as referring to the Father?

Yes.

Why, when both are mentioned?

I see in scripture that Christs reign does end, I have no difficulty with that.

Even if both are mentioned does this mean Gods reign ends, to me that is impossible.   So if Christs reign ends it cannot be referring to Christ.

[Paul Hazelwood]

All I am conveying is what I am seeing concerning the subject of this thread, I haven't expected you to do anything.

I said "we". I was just a general question. 

No problem, I am just trying to stay on the topic, I do not see a problem with scripture peeking into places I am not at yet.   

[Chris]

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?  

The problem here what I have been talking about.   Indeed, even if Molly disagrees,  we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends,  however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons.   There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

Can you give the verse, please?

Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying,  "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

So you see the "he" as referring to the Father?

Yes.

Why, when both are mentioned?

I see in scripture that Christs reign does end, I have no difficulty with that.

Even if both are mentioned does this mean Gods reign ends, to me that is impossible.   So if Christs reign ends in it cannot be referring to Christ.

As I pointed out to Molly, as I see it they are both seated on the throne at that time, so it does not appear to me that Christ has (yet) turned the kingdom over to the Father; therefore it is still Christ who is reigning over the kingdom, though His reign will not be "forever" (which you seems to agree with?)

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...

Not inclined to catch up with all the replies on this thread (quite busy!)... but a word or two...

I think you have raised a good point...

You talk about the Son handing the kingdom to the Father as though that is the end of the reign of Jesus but  these verses in Revelation tell us he will reign for ever and ever--and I take that in that context to be eternity.  He shall reign for ever and ever.

Is there ever or could there ever have been a place where the WORD did not reign?  

All that is seen in JESUS "handing over the kingdom" to the Father, is the WORD PERFECTLY returning to its ORIGIN... which is the HEART of GOD... that the HEART of YHVH be shown and REVEALED to be ALL in ALL...

Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

--Rev 5

Is that ever going to end?  unto him that sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb for ever and ever...

This discussion is very good, but also [IMO] is missing an important portion...

I think you have posed a very valid notion here, Molly... But the question (IMO) should also contain this idea...

Did BLESSING and GLORY, HONOR ever have a STARTING POINT?  Concerning TIME, YES it did for TIME had a starting point!  ...but concerning these elements (Blessing, Glory & Honor), NO!  ALL these 3 have ALWAYS BEEN... which "ALWAYS" makes them ALL, "EVER" ...lasting.

If YHVH is EVERLASTING and His WORD is EVERLASTING (without a point of generation -- which It IS), can it be said that in the opposite direction of the flow of TIME (which is NOT "toward an end"), was there ever a point in which these attributes were NOT existent?  And if so, WHY NOT?  

Also, to note that "BLESSING, HONOR & GLORY", had a point of generation, confines them, and presents the idea of a CHANGE in the circumstances of YHVH God, for it contends that there was a point in which HE WAS NOT -- blessed, and glorified and honored!

What makes the MOST REASONABLE sense in a "NO CHANGE scenario" is that ALL things in the realm in which YHVH ALWAYS IS -- just ALWAYS ARE!

Because WE as finite human beings CONFINED to the movement of LINEAR TIME, who's motion is CONTINUALLY FORWARD, and which displays BEGINNINS and ENDINGS to all things within IT...  Does not mean that, that -- to which we have NO ACCESS -- that the word ETERNAL in its FULLEST and COMPLETE sense, ...IS a realm that YHVH and HIS WORD exist, ...and in that EXISTENCE (unlike TIME), has NO BEGINNING... had no point of generation, and is NOT in motion (by heading) toward an END either...

If something (time) has a point of beginning and shall end... how can it be used to measure that which has neither property?  

EXAMPLE: --- In direct comparision --- A small "planet" (earth) in the midst of an unending Universe has its confining parameters which display its manufacture (beginning), its length, breadth and height, its durability as well as confined and finite occupants, ALL heading to an END...

Each of those FINITES in turn, which step OUTSIDE of the "planet" by stepping OUTSIDE of its TIME CONFINEMENTS, are each thereby subjected to DEATH to an INFINITE degree...

However... the UNIVERSE which is surrounding the "planet" (which is SIMULTANEOUSLY surrounding the "planet" at its every border), is BEYOND that "planet" -- and is without ANY of these confining elements, stretching forever in every DIRECTION continually, and is NOT in motion in any particular direction... and furthermore is not threatened by the TIME impositions of DEATH, END or even BEGINNING!

Where does the said Universe BEGIN?  Where does it END?  In which direction in TIME or MOTION is it headed, if any?

A small boat in the middle of the ocean gives the same picture.  

The WORD of YHVH is something that is REVEALED... That which is "REVEALED" was and IS there to begin with... so the WORD in the DIVINELY "creating" sense, ...is not bringing forth something that previously was NOT there, ...it is UNVEILING something that has ALWAYS BEEN there...

IOW... the CREATION as we observe is a matter of the WORDS of the HEART of YHVH, which were UNEXPRESSED... the CREATION did not have a "BEGINNING" as we might tend to percieve... it had a REVEALING... it IS emergent of the WORD which has ALWAYS BEEN, and therefore has the same ETERNAL and UNCHANGING properties as the WORD, being a REVELATION of IT.

The Lord says that NATURE gives its "TESTIMONY" of Him... NATURE is not just confined to the Earth... NATURE is ALL that is observable from the earth as well... for the LIGHTS in the Sky were created FOR earth to light it, warm it, give LIFE unto it... and also IN THIS, ..."TESTIFY" of Him.

As I see it, they TESTIFY that He is without the CONFINEMENTS that are seen of Earth, time, and existence as observed by, and confine men...

In this thread it has been mentioned that SCRIPTURE notes  a "new" Heaven and a "new" earth, however...  this mention is found in SYMBOLIC TEXT [Revelation of JESUS CHRIST -- which is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... it is NOT literal... Something REVEALED was THERE to begin with... When a PAINTING is revealed in an art show, it does not come into being upon the veil being removed, it was indeed THERE at the art show... albeit veiled...

This "Heaven" in Revelation cannot be "new" in the sense of BEGINNING (as if  some "do over"), because it is a place in which RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells... which said "Heaven" is without BEGINNING...

GOD's RIGHTEOUSNESS has NO BEGINNING, ...He has ALWAYS been, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE RIGHTEOUS... and wherever HE DWELLS, RIGHTEOUSNESS is also there...

The "HEAVEN" spoken of in this SYMBOLISM is not some "RE-CREATED Universe", ...it is the RE-CREATED HEARTS [enlarged by the knowledge] of those who entered TIME...  For it is IN the HEARTS of men, which IS the throne of YHVH God and the "where" He dwells... and is about to be REVEALED as ETERNAL by that MANIFEST REVEALING of His "said SONS" -- Rom 8:19-23

The "new" part is that those who entered into the KNOWLEDGE of G & E, have re-entered [returned to] the place -- ETERNITY -- from which they emerged... with KNOWLEDGE they did NOT have prior to their emergent existence in TIME...

Same SONS... just with NEW [Heavenly] information... which GLORIFIES, HONORS and BLESSES the ONE which has REVEALED that information TO THEM... they being EXACTLY as He is, which is WITH the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

The KNOWLEDGE in both aspects (G & E) given COMPLETELY to each SON, to its PERFECTLY REVEALED totality, as KNOWN by GOD in His HEART.

...willieH  

[Chris]

All I am conveying is what I am seeing concerning the subject of this thread, I haven't expected you to do anything.

I said "we". I was just a general question.  

No problem, I am just trying to stay on the topic, I do not see a problem with scripture peeking into places I am not at yet.  

I don't know that I would have a problem with it, I just don't think that it does.  

I don't even limit the "ages" to some sort of linear time-line.

Spiritually speaking, as we mature in Christ we go through various "ages"... be start out as "babes" (yet carnal)... then we grow into "toddlers".... then "young men/woman" (our youth, which is vanity  ) all of which falls under the category of A CHILD..... until Christ is formed within us and we receive the adoption of SONS.

It is in being "delivered of the child" (as was Paul) that we (Eve/the woman/the church) are "saved".

A child IS BORN.... a son IS GIVEN.

The child differs nothing from a servant, thou he is lord of all.  

But that might be a bit off-topic too (though I see it a related to concept of the "ages" and "the age of the ages" and "ages of the ages"... when applying these things spiritually).

[Paul Hazelwood]

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?  

The problem here what I have been talking about.   Indeed, even if Molly disagrees,  we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends,  however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons.   There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

Can you give the verse, please?

Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying,  "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

So you see the "he" as referring to the Father?

Yes.

Why, when both are mentioned?

I see in scripture that Christs reign does end, I have no difficulty with that.

Even if both are mentioned does this mean Gods reign ends, to me that is impossible.   So if Christs reign ends in it cannot be referring to Christ.

As I pointed out to Molly, as I see it they are both seated on the throne at that time, so it does not appear to me that Christ has (yet) turned the kingdom over to the Father; therefore it is still Christ who is reigning over the kingdom, though His reign will not be "forever" (which you seems to agree with?)

Just going by the word structure of any translation and the word for word greek text,  I see the main reference being about God.

The word for word text says

Lord  "of us"  "and of"  "The Christ"   referring to who is not only our Lord but Christs Lord.

God is Christs Lord since he is subject to him.   Some people disagree that there is any difference between God and Jesus, but I can only go by what I see in scripture at the time.

[Molly]

Rev 11:15  And2532 the3588 seventh1442 angel32 sounded;4537 and2532 there were1096 great3173 voices5456 in1722 heaven,3772 saying,3004 The3588 kingdoms932 of this world2889 are become1096 the kingdoms of our2257 Lord,2962 and2532 of his848 Christ;5547 and2532 he shall reign936 forever and ever.1519, 165, 165

[Paul Hazelwood]

All I am conveying is what I am seeing concerning the subject of this thread, I haven't expected you to do anything.

I said "we". I was just a general question.  

No problem, I am just trying to stay on the topic, I do not see a problem with scripture peeking into places I am not at yet.  

I don't know that I would have a problem with it, I just don't think that it does.  

I don't even limit the "ages" to some sort of linear time-line.

Spiritually speaking, as we mature in Christ we go through various "ages"... be start out as "babes" (yet carnal)... then we grow into "toddlers".... then "young men/woman" (our youth, which is vanity  ) all of which falls under the category of A CHILD..... until Christ is formed within us and we receive the adoption of SONS.

It is in being "delivered of the child" (as was Paul) that we (Eve/the woman/the church) are "saved".

A child IS BORN.... a son IS GIVEN.

The child differs nothing from a servant, thou he is lord of all.  

But that might be a bit off-topic too (though I see it a related to concept of the "ages" and "the age of the ages" and "ages of the ages"... when applying these things spiritually).

You raise a good point.   Perhaps if the bible is only and specifically meant for us to only see what is needed for the time that this realm will exist then it could have a limiting factor after all.

The bible does not explain every last exhausting detail and no amount of interpretation is going to do that of course.   I do think the bible makes reference to a structure of ongoing events through that verse and it is my opinion of it by how I read the words.

From my standpoint,  God has always existed and I am cool with the understanding that there is nothing that actually explains it.   It just IS.

So I am thinking and only speculating that when our time comes to reign there may be ages that some other realm perceives and that we have knowledge of but are not "bound" to.

Just thinking out loud.

[Chris]

Just going by the word structure of any translation and the word for word greek text,  I see the main reference being about God.

The word for word text says

Lord  "of us"  "and of"  "The Christ"   referring to who is not only our Lord but Christs Lord.

God is Christs Lord since he is subject to him.   Some people disagree that there is any difference between God and Jesus, but I can only go by what I see in scripture at the time.

Ok, I see what you mean. I'll have to take another look at it and the entire passage.

As I see it there absolutely is a distinction between God (the Father) and Christ (the Son).

It was not "the son" who was "made flesh" it was the Word (who WAS GOD) that was "made flesh" that resulted in "the Son" (the Word "made flesh").

And He Who "came out from the Father" RETURNED "to the Father". 

[Molly]

Is there ever or could there ever have been a place where the WORD did not reign?  

All that is seen in JESUS "handing over the kingdom" to the Father, is the WORD PERFECTLY returning to its ORIGIN... which is the HEART of GOD... that the HEART of YHVH be shown and REVEALED to be ALL in ALL...

Beautiful!

The whole post was beautiful!  Thank you!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Just going by the word structure of any translation and the word for word greek text,  I see the main reference being about God.

The word for word text says

Lord  "of us"  "and of"  "The Christ"   referring to who is not only our Lord but Christs Lord.

God is Christs Lord since he is subject to him.   Some people disagree that there is any difference between God and Jesus, but I can only go by what I see in scripture at the time.

Ok, I see what you mean. I'll have to take another look at it and the entire passage.

As I see it there absolutely is a distinction between God (the Father) and Christ (the Son).

It was not "the son" who was "made flesh" it was the Word (who WAS GOD) that was "made flesh" that resulted in "the Son" (the Word "made flesh").

And He Who "came out from the Father" RETURNED "to the Father". 

Yes and I am trying to approach this knowing that I sure suspect I do not have the ultimate grasp over the  "Jesus saying it is not wrong to think of him as equal to the father"  and at the same time this Jesus that is equal to the father is also subject to the father.    But I'm also not going to accept that there is absolutely no difference and that Jesus is his own father and is subject to himself.   Yikes   

[Chris]

All I am conveying is what I am seeing concerning the subject of this thread, I haven't expected you to do anything.

I said "we". I was just a general question.  

No problem, I am just trying to stay on the topic, I do not see a problem with scripture peeking into places I am not at yet.  

I don't know that I would have a problem with it, I just don't think that it does.  

I don't even limit the "ages" to some sort of linear time-line.

Spiritually speaking, as we mature in Christ we go through various "ages"... be start out as "babes" (yet carnal)... then we grow into "toddlers".... then "young men/woman" (our youth, which is vanity  ) all of which falls under the category of A CHILD..... until Christ is formed within us and we receive the adoption of SONS.

It is in being "delivered of the child" (as was Paul) that we (Eve/the woman/the church) are "saved".

A child IS BORN.... a son IS GIVEN.

The child differs nothing from a servant, thou he is lord of all.  

But that might be a bit off-topic too (though I see it a related to concept of the "ages" and "the age of the ages" and "ages of the ages"... when applying these things spiritually).

You raise a good point.   Perhaps if the bible is only and specifically meant for us to only see what is needed for the time that this realm will exist then it could have a limiting factor after all.

The bible does not explain every last exhausting detail and no amount of interpretation is going to do that of course.   I do think the bible makes reference to a structure of ongoing events through that verse and it is my opinion of it by how I read the words.

From my standpoint,  God has always existed and I am cool with the understanding that there is nothing that actually explains it.   It just IS.

So I am thinking and only speculating that when our time comes to reign there may be ages that some other realm perceives and that we have knowledge of but are not "bound" to.

Just thinking out loud.

Yeah, I used to do like most and read Revelation as if it described an actual city with many mansions and street paved with gold, etc, that will be our "home" one day.

But the more I have studied, the more that I have come to realize that in order to understand what was "signified" to John you have to understand the "symbols" and what they reveal. Not an easy task to be sure. But the same patterns are repeated over and over again throughout the book of Revelation (just as they are throughout scripture); it's just a matter of being able to pick up on them. Then begins the task of trying to understand them.  

Well, I have a few things to do and my eyes are starting to burn from being at the computer all day... so I'm going to take a little break. And I will take another look at that passage before I come back.  

[Molly]

The Son is subject to the Father but--

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


--John 1

[Paul Hazelwood]

All I am conveying is what I am seeing concerning the subject of this thread, I haven't expected you to do anything.

I said "we". I was just a general question.  

No problem, I am just trying to stay on the topic, I do not see a problem with scripture peeking into places I am not at yet.  

I don't know that I would have a problem with it, I just don't think that it does.  

I don't even limit the "ages" to some sort of linear time-line.

Spiritually speaking, as we mature in Christ we go through various "ages"... be start out as "babes" (yet carnal)... then we grow into "toddlers".... then "young men/woman" (our youth, which is vanity  ) all of which falls under the category of A CHILD..... until Christ is formed within us and we receive the adoption of SONS.

It is in being "delivered of the child" (as was Paul) that we (Eve/the woman/the church) are "saved".

A child IS BORN.... a son IS GIVEN.

The child differs nothing from a servant, thou he is lord of all.  

But that might be a bit off-topic too (though I see it a related to concept of the "ages" and "the age of the ages" and "ages of the ages"... when applying these things spiritually).

You raise a good point.   Perhaps if the bible is only and specifically meant for us to only see what is needed for the time that this realm will exist then it could have a limiting factor after all.

The bible does not explain every last exhausting detail and no amount of interpretation is going to do that of course.   I do think the bible makes reference to a structure of ongoing events through that verse and it is my opinion of it by how I read the words.

From my standpoint,  God has always existed and I am cool with the understanding that there is nothing that actually explains it.   It just IS.

So I am thinking and only speculating that when our time comes to reign there may be ages that some other realm perceives and that we have knowledge of but are not "bound" to.

Just thinking out loud.

Yeah, I used to do like most and read Revelation as if it described an actual city with many mansions and street paved with gold, etc, that will be our "home" one day.

But the more I have studied, the more that I have come to realize that in order to understand what was "signified" to John you have to understand the "symbols" and what they reveal. Not an easy task to be sure. But the same patterns are repeated over and over again throughout the book of Revelation (just as they are throughout scripture); it's just a matter of being able to pick up on them. Then begins the task of trying to understand them.  

Well, I have a few things to do and my eyes are starting to burn from being at the computer all day... so I'm going to take a little break. And I will take another look at that passage before I come back.  

No problem, I understand and this has been a great discussion so far.

[Chris]

The Son is subject to the Father but--

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


--John 1

Hi Molly,

Are you saying that (in the beginning) "the Word" (which was with God and was God) = "the Son"? That "the Son was made flesh"?

Rather than "the Word/God was made flesh" = "the Son"?

Do you see the difference between the two statements? 

[Chris]

Ok, going back to look at Rev 11:15:

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When I read just this verse all I can say is that it is just isn't clear at all who the "he" who is who is to "reign forever and ever". My tendency is to still to lean toward Christ, though.

The chapter begins talking about the two witnesses (the second woe). Then it goes into the third, when the seventh angel sounds and "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Then it talks about the 24 elders that sit before God, worshiping Him saying: ".... O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come..."

Then we go into the next chapter which talks about "the woman" who is "travailing in birth" who "brings forth a man child" who is "to rule all nations" and who is "caught up to God and to His throne"... etc, etc...

Could be taken either way, I suppose, and since they are ONE, it's not as if we can really separate them. As Christ reigns, so does the Father, as the Father is IN HIM and He IN THE FATHER.

So I am not quite sure that it matters all that much is the whole scheme of things, if it is true that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and then turns the kingdom over to the Father putting all things that were put under Christ back into the hands of the Father, who put them there.

It's sort of like how I look at "eternal life" (eonian life), which it that LIFE which we have "in Christ" NOW, that pertains to those who are "in this world" but "not of this world".

That life does not "end" just because the "eons" do or just because or life (which could also be called 'an eon') ends; as those who believe "shall never die". Not only have we been given "eternal life" we have "put on" IMMORTALITY.

So to say that Christ shall reign for "to the age of the ages" and that reign will come to an end at whatever point all things are turned over to the Father wouldn't mean that the Father, though He reigns SUPREME and ETERNALLY, also reigns "to the age of the ages" IN CHRIST?

Not really sure. Gonna have to think/pray on it some more.    

[reFORMer]

"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the one
body, being many, are one body, thus also is the Christ." (1 Co 12:12, CLT)  Christ is, "many are one body," and Jesus is the head of that body.  It is a many-membered Christ.

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Ep 5:30, CLT)  Is my body me?  If I put my hand on your shoulder did I touch you?  "Are you not aware that your bodies are members of Christ? (1 Co 6:15, CLT)  "Now he who joins the Lord is one spirit." (1 Co 6:17, CLT)  Our bodies are part of Christ and we are one spirit with Him.

What do you think, "...become participants of the divine nature" means?

"...having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible..." (1 Pet 1:23, CLT)  What is incorruptible is immortal.  Death has no dominion over incorruptible life.

"...that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me.  And I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One,  I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in one, and that the world may know that Thou dost commission Me and dost love them according as Thou dost love Me." (Jn 17:21-23, CLT)  One in God.  One with Him as Jesus and the Father are one!

[Lupac]

So, what's the consensus? I started this topic only trying to prove that the "aionion fire" that Jesus spoke of, and the "torment for the ages of the ages" does not mean, "forever, un-ending, eternal, never stopping torture, forever and ever and etc...". I want to prove that won't happen. (I believe that God will save all men, I just want to get this stupid eternity off my chest.)

[Chris]

The Son is subject to the Father but--

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


--John 1

HI Molly, I was thinking about this last night as I lay in bed and this verse kept coming to mind.

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Once all things have been been subdued unto Christ and the body of Christ has "grown in the head" that which is "the fullness of Christ" (ONE BODY) still has "a head" (GOD).

The result is still ONE BODY, Christ in the Father, the Father in Christ and we in Him; but it is THE FATHER who is THE ONE TRUE GOD and to whom the kingdom belongs.

Make sense?

[Chris]

So, what's the consensus? I started this topic only trying to prove that the "aionion fire" that Jesus spoke of, and the "torment for the ages of the ages" does not mean, "forever, un-ending, eternal, never stopping torture, forever and ever and etc...". I want to prove that won't happen. (I believe that God will save all men, I just want to get this stupid eternity off my chest.)

Hi Lupac,

Not sure about a "consensus". While we all agree that "everlasting punishment" is not "endless" punishment we do not all come to that understanding in exactly the same way. Though we all agree (I think) that even if aionios "can" mean "eternal" it is not the "only" meaning of the word and therefore cannot be used as "proof" that such punishments never comes to an end.

[Molly]

The Son is subject to the Father but--

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


--John 1

HI Molly, I was thinking about this last night as I lay in bed and this verse kept coming to mind.

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Once all things have been been subdued unto Christ and the body of Christ has "grown in the head" that which is "the fullness of Christ" (ONE BODY) still has "a head" (GOD).

The result is still ONE BODY, Christ in the Father, the Father in Christ and we in Him; but it is THE FATHER who is THE ONE TRUE GOD and to whom the kingdom belongs.

Make sense?

Yes. There is only one God.  God is One.


John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.




18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


--John 1

[Molly]

So, what's the consensus? I started this topic only trying to prove that the "aionion fire" that Jesus spoke of, and the "torment for the ages of the ages" does not mean, "forever, un-ending, eternal, never stopping torture, forever and ever and etc...". I want to prove that won't happen. (I believe that God will save all men, I just want to get this stupid eternity off my chest.)

The way I'm seeing it these days is it's not men that are tormented forever and ever but those spirits that have rebelled against God and taken men captive.

The war that is raging is a spiritual war.



27And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

 29(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

 30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

 31And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

 32And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

 33Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

 34When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country.

 35Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

--Luke 8



10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

--Rev 20

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, what's the consensus? I started this topic only trying to prove that the "aionion fire" that Jesus spoke of, and the "torment for the ages of the ages" does not mean, "forever, un-ending, eternal, never stopping torture, forever and ever and etc...". I want to prove that won't happen. (I believe that God will save all men, I just want to get this stupid eternity off my chest.)

In a nut shell the word(s) carries an absolute and abstract meaning.   

The absolute is a limited duration and the abstract is the imperceptible or how it seems.

For instance.

In the abstract ----  You come up to a stoplight you are unfamiliar with and while waiting you might think  "This stoplight is taking forever."   meaning, it seemed like a long time and you really could not determine how long it would take to change (what if it was broken and stuck on red?)

In the absolute ---- The stoplight did change, or was repaired to operate properly again.


I do not know if there is actually a consensus or if this will help you at all, but it is how I see it and teach it.

[Lupac]

So, what's the consensus? I started this topic only trying to prove that the "aionion fire" that Jesus spoke of, and the "torment for the ages of the ages" does not mean, "forever, un-ending, eternal, never stopping torture, forever and ever and etc...". I want to prove that won't happen. (I believe that God will save all men, I just want to get this stupid eternity off my chest.)

The way I'm seeing it these days is it's not men that are tormented forever and ever but those spirits that have rebelled against God and taken men captive.

The war that is raging is a spiritual war.

[/i]
--Rev 20

Sorry Molly, but I deeply disagree with you there. I believe Satan, if there indeed really is "a" Satan, is doing exactly what God made him to do, and will be reconciled to God in the end.

There is also no "war" between God and Satan. Satan is just doing what God intended for him to do from the start.

I'd suggest you read L. Ray Smith's papers on the Lake of Fire:

http://bible-truths.com/

They're very helpful.

So, what's the consensus? I started this topic only trying to prove that the "aionion fire" that Jesus spoke of, and the "torment for the ages of the ages" does not mean, "forever, un-ending, eternal, never stopping torture, forever and ever and etc...". I want to prove that won't happen. (I believe that God will save all men, I just want to get this stupid eternity off my chest.)

In a nut shell the word(s) carries an absolute and abstract meaning.  

The absolute is a limited duration and the abstract is the imperceptible or how it seems.

For instance.

In the abstract ----  You come up to a stoplight you are unfamiliar with and while waiting you might think  "This stoplight is taking forever."   meaning, it seemed like a long time and you really could not determine how long it would take to change (what if it was broken and stuck on red?)

In the absolute ---- The stoplight did change, or was repaired to operate properly again.


I do not know if there is actually a consensus or if this will help you at all, but it is how I see it and teach it.

That makes sense. I just wanted to make sure that aionios/ages of ages didn't mean (It doesn't, does it?): "Indisputably endless, never ceasing, enjoy hell ... Yeah. (That seems to be that attitude of a lot of Christians.)

EDIT: Sorry Jabcat.