Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!

[Chris]

Would you like to discuss that on another thread?

Sure...  if you want to make some points I'll address how I see it.

I'm not sure what time it is where you are. It's 12:36am where I am. Do you want to do this tonight or look at it tomorrow?

[bobf]

I'm not sure what time it is where you are. It's 12:36am where I am. Do you want to do this tonight or look at it tomorrow?

Same here.   Let's do it tommorow.... maybe a little here and there.

[Chris]

I'm not sure what time it is where you are. It's 12:36am where I am. Do you want to do this tonight or look at it tomorrow?

Same here.   Let's do it tommorow.... maybe a little here and there.

Cool. I'll try to put a post together tomorrow and then you can add to it as you get the chance, and vice versa. 

Have a good night!!!

[bobf]

Cool. I'll try to put a post together tomorrow and then you can add to it as you get the chance, and vice versa. 

Have a good night!!!

Soungs good.   Good night... God bless.

[sven]

the phrase eis ton aióna kai eti/epekaina - "into the eon and further" is found several times in the Septuagint (Micha 4:5; Psalms of Solomon 9:11)

Daniel 12:3 in the version of Theodotion seems to contain the phrase eis tous aiónas kai eti - "into the eons and further" though I found no Greek version available online

The Latin bible has:

Qui autem docti fuerint, fulgebunt quasi splendor firmamenti: et qui ad iustitiam erudiunt multos, quasi stellae in perpetuas aeternitates

in perpetual eternities!

so both expressions, eis ton aióna [into the eon] and eis tous aiónas [into the eons] cannot mean "endlessness" by themselve

[Molly]

I am not ignore perpetuity. I have no problem with aion pertaining to that which is perpetual; perpetual does not mean endless. And certainly "aion" can be rendered in the plural.

Perpetual could mean endless.  It's one possible meaning of the word.  In fact, it's the first meaning.




perpetual -

1 continuing or enduring forever; everlasting.
2. lasting an indefinitely long time: perpetual snow.  
3. continuing or continued without intermission or interruption; ceaseless: a perpetual stream of visitors all day.  
4. blooming almost continuously throughout the season or the year.

–noun 5. a hybrid rose that is perpetual.
6. a perennial plant.



Synonyms:
1. permanent, enduring. See eternal. 3. continuous, incessant, constant, unending, uninterrupted.


Antonyms:
1. temporary. 3. discontinuous

[Paul Hazelwood]

Why not is because it simply is a fact that it is not the only definition of the word.

I disagree and citing Strongs does not convince me.  For example, I don't believe "forever" is a good definition of aion.  I know of no scripture where the word aion does the work of imparting foreverness to the meaning.

Just because a word plus it's surrounding context conveys a certain meaning does not make that meaning a good definition of any of the words used.  For example, I can says "the bird soared to it's home".  That does not make "nest" a good definition of "home".  Nor does it make "flew" a good definition of "soared".  Or in English, I can say "God rules throughout the ages" but that does not mean "forever" is a good defintion of "ages".

If the God of ages is eternal and if ages always can exist then perpetuity carries a different implication of simply "an age".

I'm not interested in debating whether or not you will be convinced, I am not in this to point out anything personal,  I cite what I believe are the known facts and introduce what is possible.   

[Molly]

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

--Rev 5



"for ever and ever"


eis aiōn aiōn


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXF2o6fU_k

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am not ignore perpetuity. I have no problem with aion pertaining to that which is perpetual; perpetual does not mean endless. And certainly "aion" can be rendered in the plural.

Yes perpetual can mean endless,  but it can also mean that something lasts the full length of a span of time.  

Mostly I just go by the (proper) definition that is given by Strong's and Thayer's (and other concordances that I have checked) that all say the proper definition is "an age".

But (more importantly) I take into account the way that it is used/defines in the scriptures themselves. I see no instance in scripture in which aion takes on a meaning of "forever"; nowhere that it is connected to "eternity" rather that that which has been created within "the ages" (time).

If you have an example of such, please do post it; but I have not yet come across even one use in which I feel that a connection to eternity (rather than time) is indicated.

Well, thought I would ask.  


Ephesians 2:7

Revelation 5:13

Are a couple where the implication is not necessarily limited.

[Molly]

Ephesians 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

"ages to come"

aiōn eperchomai



Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen



aiōn aiōn amēn

[Paul Hazelwood]

 That does not make "nest" a good definition of "home".

But because of the definitions of the words it is easy to make the connection to Home and Nest through how the words are used that will give GOOD meaning.

Perpetuity  is a valid definition of AION, and it carries a meaning that does not prevent AIONIOS from being used in relationship to perpetuity.

[bobf]

 That does not make "nest" a good definition of "home".

But because of the definitions of the words it is easy to make the connection to Home and Nest through how the words are used....

I agree

...that will give GOOD meaning.

If I understand you, you are saying that "home" can take on the meaning of "nest".  If so I agree.

Perpetuity  is a valid definition of AION, and it carries a meaning that does not prevent AIONIOS from being used in relationship to perpetuity.

To be honest, I don't use or hear the word "perpetuity" enough to have a good grasp of its nuances.  Is it more like "continuous" or "everlasting"?

At any rate, the word "age" in English is also compatable with being a period of time that lasts forever.  For example I can say "the final age after the resurrection will be an everlasting age".  Whether that is a theoolgically true statement or not, it makes sense in English.  So the word "age" is compatible with lasting forever.   So my guess is that the word "age" is compatible with being a "perpetuity".  And yet "forever" and "perpetuity" are not valid definitions of "age".

So I agree with you that aion might take on those other meanings in the right context, but I don't agree that those other meanings are definitions of aion.

Why I am splitting hairs about definition vs ability to take on meaning?  Because
1. People see "forever", "eternity", "perpetuity" in the definition of aion
2. Then they see the phrase "aionion punishment"
And they conclude it's a forever punishment, when in reality the word aion does not impart that meaning on it's own.

To me it is like having "nest" under the defintion of "home" just because some homes are nests.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Fair enough Bob, but if the word Dead in scripture is reasonable in the right context to say someone is asleep, then perhaps at least you can understand the perspective I have on this.   I am not asking or demanding that you agree in any case.

[bobf]

Fair enough Bob, but if the word Dead in scripture is reasonable in the right context to say someone is asleep, then perhaps at least you can understand the perspective I have on this.   I am not asking or demanding that you agree in any case.

I added some explanation to my prev post.  I'll copy it here.

Why I am splitting hairs about definition vs ability to take on meaning?  Because
1. People see "forever", "eternity", "perpetuity" in the definition of aion
2. Then they see the phrase "aionion punishment"
And they conclude it's a forever punishment, when in reality the word aion does not impart that meaning on it's own.

To me it is like having "nest" under the defintion of "home" just because some homes are nests.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Fair enough Bob, but if the word Dead in scripture is reasonable in the right context to say someone is asleep, then perhaps at least you can understand the perspective I have on this.   I am not asking or demanding that you agree in any case.

I added some explanation to my prev post.  I'll copy it here.

Why I am splitting hairs about definition vs ability to take on meaning?  Because
1. People see "forever", "eternity", "perpetuity" in the definition of aion
2. Then they see the phrase "aionion punishment"
And they conclude it's a forever punishment, when in reality the word aion does not impart that meaning on it's own.

To me it is like having "nest" under the defintion of "home" just because some homes are nests.

I understand Bob,  but I am not seeing how perpetuity is an invalid definition.   I see what Chris was saying about the usages in the KJV, but that does not take away perpetuity even if we removed those.

I might object to a conclusion someone makes, but that dislike is not a valid reason to claim a definition of a word is wrong.

[Molly]

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.




11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

--Rev 7



"for ever and ever"

eis aiōn aiōn


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxD07zjpqg

[bobf]

I understand Bob,  but I am not seeing how perpetuity is an invalid definition.

Again, I'm not sure of exactly what "perpetuity" implies.  Is it closer to "something that goes on continually" or closer to "something that goes on forever"?  Something that is continually can go on forever but doesn't have to.

The phrase "to the ages of the ages" seems to imply something going on and on indefinitely and possibly forever but not necessarily forever.  If "pepretuity" has a similar meaning, then I can agree that "perpetuity" might be a valid definition for the whole phrase "to the ages of the ages" (in Greek or even in English) but it is still not a valid definition of "age" because "age" on it's own doesn't do the work of imparting that meaning.  On the other hand if the real meaning of "to the ages of the ages" is more along the lines of "to the culmination of the ages" then I would say that "perpetuity" is not capturing the intended meaning.

To me a word or phrase only has definition X if that word normally or often imparts meaning X in a variety of contexts.  e.g. "Death" is not a definition of "sleep" even though "sleep" can refer to "death" in the bible in certain contexts.  "without beginning or end" is a valid definition for "eternal" because "eternal" in almost all contexts imparts that meaning.

I might object to a conclusion someone makes, but that dislike is not a valid reason to claim a definition of a word is wrong.

But to me it is precisely because the definition is wrong that they make the erroneous conclusion.

[sven]

English is not my mothertongue but I understand "perpetuity" not as "endlessness" I came actually to the conclusion that "in perpetuity" might be a good translation of eis ton aióna, I think "in perpetuity" can be understood, but need not as meaning endless, it is somehow ambiguous just as aión or its Latin equivalents.

And yet "forever" and "perpetuity" are not valid definitions of "age".

well, I would say an age can also be a perpetuity, a century is a perpetuity of 100 years.

"A slave shall serve his master into the age" (Exodus 21:6 LXX) does make no sense to me, but "A slave shall serve his master in perpetuity" makes good sense to me and says nothing how long this will be at all, for it is a very ambiguous expression, at least to me, as English is not my mothertongue.

We had these discussions so often, I can't understand why we always discuss this particular topic, even if Jesus had said the wicked will be punished for a decade, that wouldn't automatically mean they would be saved after the decade, a defense for universalism should not be stressed whether an aeon is always finite or not, and as only God is eternal without beginning and end, we could say, that eternal punishment is nothing but divine punishment and that it says nothing about the lenght of this punishment at all.

[Chris]

I am not ignore perpetuity. I have no problem with aion pertaining to that which is perpetual; perpetual does not mean endless. And certainly "aion" can be rendered in the plural.

Perpetual could mean endless.  It's one possible meaning of the word.  In fact, it's the first meaning.




perpetual -

1 continuing or enduring forever; everlasting.
2. lasting an indefinitely long time: perpetual snow.  
3. continuing or continued without intermission or interruption; ceaseless: a perpetual stream of visitors all day.  
4. blooming almost continuously throughout the season or the year.

–noun 5. a hybrid rose that is perpetual.
6. a perennial plant.



Synonyms:
1. permanent, enduring. See eternal. 3. continuous, incessant, constant, unending, uninterrupted.


Antonyms:
1. temporary. 3. discontinuous

I didn't say that something that is perpetual "can't" last forever, Molly.

But the word, in and of itself, does not DEMAND that meaning.

If that which is being referenced as being "perpetual" is connected to that which "comes to an end", then it CANNOT mean "without end".

So if (for example) the reign of Christ is "perpetual", but is (also) said to be UNTIL a particular "time" or "event" takes place, then it CANNOT be "forever".

Likewise, if something is said to be "perpetual" within the realm "of the ages" then it (too) CANNOT be "without end" as it WILL END when the ages come to an END.

Do you disagree?
 

[Chris]

Yes perpetual can mean endless,  but it can also mean that something lasts the full length of a span of time.

 

Well, thought I would ask.  


Ephesians 2:7

Revelation 5:13

Are a couple where the implication is not necessarily limited.

Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

What ages are being spoken of and what make you think that they do not come to an end?

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

When do you see this taking place in relation to the reign of Christ and in relation to Christ turning the kingdom over to the Father?

I don't see either one of these passages addressing "eternity". In fact, I see them both relative to us in this life. How do you see them?

[Chris]

We had these discussions so often, I can't understand why we always discuss this particular topic, even if Jesus had said the wicked will be punished for a decade, that wouldn't automatically mean they would be saved after the decade, a defense for universalism should not be stressed whether an aeon is always finite or not, and as only God is eternal without beginning and end, we could say, that eternal punishment is nothing but divine punishment and that it says nothing about the lenght of this punishment at all.

  Amen!!

Just as ETERNAL life comes "from God" so does EVERLASTING punishment come "from God" who ~IS~ ETERNAL!!

That which is "eternal" (aionios) is that which is connected to that which is SPIRITUAL (NOT SEEN)

2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The only reason that I feel that it is "appropriate" to limit even that which is "aionios" to TIME is because of scriptures themselves seem to connect even this unseen, spiritual realm to time (rather than eternity):


2Ti 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

"προ χρονων αιωνιων" or "pro chronos aionios" (before times aionios)

Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

"προ χρονων αιωνιων" or "pro chronos aionios" (before times aionios)

In both cases, above, it is the adjective and not the noun that is being used. It is used in the plural in both cases and clearly connects to "time" (chronos) and purposed that were set and promised that were made "before" the eons (ages, including that which is visible and that which is invisible) were established.

 

[Paul Hazelwood]

But to me it is precisely because the definition is wrong that they make the erroneous conclusion.

And I understand, that is why I have asked for more information about why perpetuity is not a valid definition.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

What ages are being spoken of and what make you think that they do not come to an end?

I do not know what ages those may be, scripture does not really say, people may interpret something to try to say, but inherantly there is no implication otherwise.

It does lend itself to the writers not being able to perceive a ending to something which then it is a fitting description to the closest in reality we as human can get to the concept of eternity in the first place.

Such as  "May this last for as long as it can ever last."    I do not put an ending on it because contextually there is no reason for one.

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

When do you see this taking place in relation to the reign of Christ and in relation to Christ turning the kingdom over to the Father?

I don't see either one of these passages addressing "eternity". In fact, I see them both relative to us in this life. How do you see them?

"Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne"

I do not see statements like this to imply an ending.   If I am saying something to you in true love and I say "Blessing upon you" have I implied a time in which they should cease?

[bobf]

And I understand, that is why I have asked for more information about why perpetuity is not a valid definition.

I'll assume that "perpetuity" means "eternity" since that is the primary definition given in Merriam Webster and the only definition given that works in scripture.

One reason that "eternity" is not a valid definition for aion is that no where in scripture does the word aion impart the meaning "eternity".  At most a whole phrase ("to the ages of the ages") imparts that meaning.  And it is debatable as to whether the whole phrase does that.

A second reason is that "age" works everywhere aion works and "age" certainly does not mean "eternity".

[Chris]

Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

What ages are being spoken of and what make you think that they do not come to an end?

I do not know what ages those may be, scripture does not really say, people may interpret something to try to say, but inherantly there is no implication otherwise.

It does lend itself to the writers not being able to perceive a ending to something which then it is a fitting description to the closest in reality we as human can get to the concept of eternity in the first place.

Such as  "May this last for as long as it can ever last."    I do not put an ending on it because contextually there is no reason for one.

Well, certainly, they saw that whatever 'age' they were presently in was going to come to an end and be followed by other 'ages' (plural, so not just one long age), right? And don't the scriptures also talk about "the end of the ages" and aren't the "ages" connected to "time", having been "created"?

So regardless of what those ages might be or how long they might last where are they ever connected to eternity, to that which exists outside of "time" and that which was "created"? 

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

When do you see this taking place in relation to the reign of Christ and in relation to Christ turning the kingdom over to the Father?

I don't see either one of these passages addressing "eternity". In fact, I see them both relative to us in this life. How do you see them?

"Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne"

I do not see statements like this to imply an ending.   If I am saying something to you in true love and I say "Blessing upon you" have I implied a time in which they should cease?

This is spoken of Christ, right? Will Christ be sitting upon the throne "forever"? Or does Christ turn His kingdom over to the Father?