Author Topic: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!  (Read 10962 times)

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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2010, 07:30:40 PM »
KJVEphesians 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1074 genea, genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
Meaning:  1) fathered, birth, nativity 2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family 2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy 2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time 4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space

world without end
World=aion
end=aion
without is added by KJV

The above gave me from teh start a feeling it's not about the fact that Jesus is 'without an end'

Christian Bible.
may He be gloified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! Amen.

Age -> Singular




If we look at the passage it is about praising Jesus and I think the implication is that as long as we are able to praise him, lets praise him.  I think it's a stretch to say that passage must be defined as a temporary frame of time, but it is using our knowledge of the temporary to paint the picture of a perspective that is beyond what it able to be imagined.


Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2010, 07:33:57 PM »
Quote
Christian Bible.
may He be gloified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! Amen.

Age -> Singular

So this is implying that we are in the Last age which is the Messianic age [another translation of aion] which will continue forever because he will NEVER leave us or forsake us.

It's a deep scripture.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2010, 07:45:31 PM »
KJVEphesians 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1074 genea, genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
Meaning:  1) fathered, birth, nativity 2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family 2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy 2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time 4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space

world without end
World=aion
end=aion
without is added by KJV

The above gave me from the start a feeling it's not about the fact that Jesus is 'without an end'

Christian Bible.
may He be gloified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! Amen.

Age -> Singular

If we look at the passage it is about praising Jesus and I think the implication is that as long as we are able to praise him, lets praise him.  I think it's a stretch to say that passage must be defined as a temporary frame of time, but it is using our knowledge of the temporary to paint the picture of a perspective that is beyond what it able to be imagined.
Did the Last Age start after Jesus died? If so...
When combining the two versions and Strong's I  understand it as:

All people that are part of the church founded by Jesus should worship Him.
I'm unsure who "Him" is. Father or Son. I slightly edge to Father.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2010, 07:53:08 PM »
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

 15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

 17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

 18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

 21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

--Eph 3


"by Christ Jesus" meaning as the mediator throughout all time--forever--



21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


--John 17




38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

--Rom 8



aiōn aiōn amēn

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2010, 08:21:52 PM »
Official Dutch Catholic translation:

"aiōn aiōn amēn" = "centuries of the centuries"

But a very important word should be added. Often used from but anyway...

"until the century of centuries"

The words we use for until is exclusive count.

1 until 300 means that 300 is excluded.
That stricly speaking means that after until always comes something.

So until the end means that the end is not included.

Just using a Dutch grammar rule with an English word because explaining the same in Dutch wouldn't be understood by most on this forum.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2010, 08:26:22 PM »
"by Christ Jesus" meaning as the mediator throughout all time--forever--
Really?
Once we are all-in-all there is nothing to mediate anymore.
Likely sounds disrespectful but Jesus is a just a tool in God's mater plan.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2010, 08:51:19 PM »
KJVEphesians 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1074 genea, genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
Meaning:  1) fathered, birth, nativity 2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family 2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy 2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time 4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space

world without end
World=aion
end=aion
without is added by KJV

The above gave me from the start a feeling it's not about the fact that Jesus is 'without an end'

Christian Bible.
may He be gloified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! Amen.

Age -> Singular

If we look at the passage it is about praising Jesus and I think the implication is that as long as we are able to praise him, lets praise him.  I think it's a stretch to say that passage must be defined as a temporary frame of time, but it is using our knowledge of the temporary to paint the picture of a perspective that is beyond what it able to be imagined.
Did the Last Age start after Jesus died? If so...
When combining the two versions and Strong's I  understand it as:

All people that are part of the church founded by Jesus should worship Him.
I'm unsure who "Him" is. Father or Son. I slightly edge to Father.


I am not sure about the last age, I do however recognize my religious thinking.   In churches it is all about praising Jesus, and am not making a statement saying we should not,  but the passage is indeed about Glorifying the Father specifically,  even though being raised under the influence that there is no difference between God and Jesus which actually is not true.

I suppose in general there is no harm, after all, jesus did say he did not see the harm in being seen as equal to the father.  But I know that personally I must be careful to not over look specific things in scirpture just because of that.


bobf

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2010, 09:02:37 PM »
The answer to your question is  "No I cannot", however  that does not mean that it cannot be used another way.  

My argument is not against the definition age , I am saying that the argument that it can only be applied in that manner is incorrect because AION does not carry only one definition for it's USE.

I guess it does not prove that it cannot be used another way, but I see no reason to believe that aion is used in any way other than "age" since I can find no examples where "age" fails to make perfect sense as a translation of aion.

Quote
Hmm, what you wrote seems to contradict your own point.   If something is of "high grade" (super) but then something is "Higher grade" (superior) then it carries a greater meaning.

Not exactly.  Something that is of "high grade" already implies that it is higher than some norm.

If you look at the etymology of "superior" it comes from "super" Latin which means "over and above" so it already contains the idea of "higher".

Merriam Webster:
Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin, comparative of superus upper, from super over, above

If we say "B is greater than A but C is greater than B" that doesn't make the second "greater" more powerful than the first "greater".  But that's kind of what your doing with super and superior.  You are saying B is super (greater than the norm) but C is superior to B.

Quote
"Dude, I have a super fast ball, but you have a superior fast ball to mine."   Now, tell me how you do not have a fast ball that is greater?

And I could say "Dude, I have a superior fastball, but compared to mine you have a super fastball."  In this case super wins out over superior.

Joe's fast ball is superior to Jim's
Sue has a super fastball.

Between Joe and Sue we don't know whose is faster.

Joe has a superior fastball.
Sue has a super fastball.

Again we don't know whose is faster.


Quote
Compare that with the leap from "age" to "everlasting".

I'm not making the leap,  if you look at the definitions for aion and aionios you will find that "age" is not the only use of the word, so like I said,  even if it is proven that Ray's grammar rule is correct,  that doesn't prevent aionios from carrying the meaning of everlasting.

I wasn't saying you were making that leap.  I was pointing out that the jump from "age" to "everlasting" is greater than the jump (if there is one) from "super" to "superior".  

I agree with your main point that there is no such grammar rule.  Words come to mean whatever they come to mean based on usage and trends and the whims of people who use the words.  If enough people agree to use a word in some way, then eventually that becomes an accepted meaning, and the dictionaries add that definition.




« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:16:28 PM by bobf »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2010, 09:44:33 PM »
KJVEphesians 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1074 genea, genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
Meaning:  1) fathered, birth, nativity 2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family 2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy 2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time 4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space

world without end
World=aion
end=aion
without is added by KJV

The above gave me from the start a feeling it's not about the fact that Jesus is 'without an end'

Christian Bible.
may He be gloified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! Amen.

Age -> Singular

If we look at the passage it is about praising Jesus and I think the implication is that as long as we are able to praise him, lets praise him.  I think it's a stretch to say that passage must be defined as a temporary frame of time, but it is using our knowledge of the temporary to paint the picture of a perspective that is beyond what it able to be imagined.
Did the Last Age start after Jesus died? If so...
When combining the two versions and Strong's I  understand it as:

All people that are part of the church founded by Jesus should worship Him.
I'm unsure who "Him" is. Father or Son. I slightly edge to Father.


I am not sure about the last age, I do however recognize my religious thinking.   In churches it is all about praising Jesus, and am not making a statement saying we should not,  but the passage is indeed about Glorifying the Father specifically,  even though being raised under the influence that there is no difference between God and Jesus which actually is not true.

I suppose in general there is no harm, after all, jesus did say he did not see the harm in being seen as equal to the father.  But I know that personally I must be careful to not over look specific things in scirpture just because of that.
I think for this thread it isn't important who is the greatest. Or equal. Lets just agree both are enormously huge.

Paul if you can switch of your religious thinking and just read the one verse with the mind you read a newspaper with. Does it then in your opinion say this is the last age?
Personally I would say yes. I have concidered that perhaps after this age the 1000 year Kingdom of Jesus comes; but my guess is that church in that period is still existing. And much  stronger than ever.
Another way of reasoning is: What if there are a number of ages after this one? Then it means we should abandon church in those future ages. Personally I can only imagine such a command when all-in-all has become a fact.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2010, 09:57:46 PM »
KJVEphesians 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1074 genea, genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
Meaning:  1) fathered, birth, nativity 2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family 2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy 2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time 4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space

world without end
World=aion
end=aion
without is added by KJV

The above gave me from the start a feeling it's not about the fact that Jesus is 'without an end'

Christian Bible.
may He be gloified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! Amen.

Age -> Singular

If we look at the passage it is about praising Jesus and I think the implication is that as long as we are able to praise him, lets praise him.  I think it's a stretch to say that passage must be defined as a temporary frame of time, but it is using our knowledge of the temporary to paint the picture of a perspective that is beyond what it able to be imagined.
Did the Last Age start after Jesus died? If so...
When combining the two versions and Strong's I  understand it as:

All people that are part of the church founded by Jesus should worship Him.
I'm unsure who "Him" is. Father or Son. I slightly edge to Father.


I am not sure about the last age, I do however recognize my religious thinking.   In churches it is all about praising Jesus, and am not making a statement saying we should not,  but the passage is indeed about Glorifying the Father specifically,  even though being raised under the influence that there is no difference between God and Jesus which actually is not true.

I suppose in general there is no harm, after all, jesus did say he did not see the harm in being seen as equal to the father.  But I know that personally I must be careful to not over look specific things in scirpture just because of that.
I think for this thread it isn't important who is the greatest. Or equal. Lets just agree both are enormously huge.

Paul if you can switch of your religious thinking and just read the one verse with the mind you read a newspaper with. Does it then in your opinion say this is the last age?
Personally I would say yes. I have concidered that perhaps after this age the 1000 year Kingdom of Jesus comes; but my guess is that church in that period is still existing. And much  stronger than ever.
Another way of reasoning is: What if there are a number of ages after this one? Then it means we should abandon church in those future ages. Personally I can only imagine such a command when all-in-all has become a fact.
 :2c:


Well, I honestly do not see that verse or the passage referring to a last anything.


Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2010, 10:54:20 PM »
Quote
Official Dutch Catholic translation:

"aiōn aiōn amēn" = "centuries of the centuries"

But a very important word should be added. Often used from but anyway...

"until the century of centuries"

When you do the 'glory be' in the Catholic rosary do you say 'world without end'?  Catholics here do.


Quote
So until the end means that the end is not included.

I don't see the word, 'until' here, but if the end never comes, then that's forever.



Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Quote
Really?
Once we are all-in-all there is nothing to mediate anymore.
Likely sounds disrespectful but Jesus is a just a tool in God's mater plan.

This doesn't say that Jesus is going anywhere with respect to his role as mediator--


1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Jesus is the high priest on the order of Melchizedek which priesthood is based on an eternal life.  Isn't he praying here for that final state of God being all in all with respect to the ekklesia?

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;

--John 17




Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2010, 11:55:11 PM »
Quote
Official Dutch Catholic translation:
"aiōn aiōn amēn" = "centuries of the centuries"

But a very important word should be added. Often used from but anyway...

"until the century of centuries"

When you do the 'glory be' in the Catholic rosary do you say 'world without end'?  Catholics here do.
I'm not denying that. I'm just writing what I know. What I don't know is for example the Dutch version is right or wrong. Or that they don't use stickt grammar rules and really mean eternally. I'm just giving a little info.
Quote
Quote
So until the end means that the end is not included.
I don't see the word, 'until' here, but if the end never comes, then that's forever.
But in Dutch the 'until' is included. And that word has a very strikt meaning. But often used wrong. So.... :dontknow:

But it's just an example. It doesn't matter. The point is that one can't just use 2009 English grammar rules on 1st century AD Greek.

Quote
Quote
Really?
Once we are all-in-all there is nothing to mediate anymore.
Likely sounds disrespectful but Jesus is a just a tool in God's mater plan.
This doesn't say that Jesus is going anywhere with respect to his role as mediator--
For me it does. Just a matter of interpretation I guess. Why is Jesus a mediator? Will the reasons for Him to be a mediator be forver there? If not then there is nothing left to mediate.

Quote
Jesus is the high priest on the order of Melchizedek which priesthood is based on an eternal life.  Isn't he praying here for that final state of God being all in all with respect to the ekklesia?
And isn't that praying part of His mediator role?
If all in all is reached then Jesus can still pray. But not for mediating?
I see it similar to a hostage situation there is a mediator between the police and the terrorists. Once the issue is solved the mediators job is done. He doesn't follow the terrorists forever and continue mediating.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2010, 12:45:07 AM »
Quote from: ww
Why is Jesus a mediator? Will the reasons for Him to be a mediator be forver there? If not then there is nothing left to mediate.

well, I think here it is an attempt to explain something that is now becoming, for me, at least, quite mystical.  In other words, any explanation I could give, would not really do it justice.

But, consider, you cannot have the Father without the Son.  Also, the Son of God is becoming a corporate body, or, in other words, a hologram.

19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


If we are filled with all the fulness of God, then what is that?  That is the Son.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


For want of a better way to put it, the Son doesn't go away, he just increases, but the whole [the Father] will always be greater than the sum of its parts.


..then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


--1 Cor 15

Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2010, 04:07:05 AM »
 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


--Rom 8



"brethren"

G80
ἀδελφός
adelphos
ad-el-fos'
From G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like [H1]): - brother.



7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


--Rev 3


"Philadelphia"

G5361
φιλάδελφος
philadelphos
fil-ad'-el-fos
From G5384 and G80; fond of brethren, that is, fraternal: - love as brethren.


From:


G5384
φίλος
philos
fee'-los
Properly dear, that is, a friend; actively fond, that is, friendly (still as a noun, an associate, neighbor, etc.): - friend.


and


G80
ἀδελφός
adelphos
ad-el-fos'
From G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like [H1]): - brother.




Offline sven

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2010, 05:11:23 PM »
I came across this per chance, it has some good points though it is from an annihilationist point of view:

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/special1.htm

Chris

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2010, 01:23:10 AM »
The answer to your question is  "No I cannot", however  that does not mean that it cannot be used another way.  

My argument is not against the definition age , I am saying that the argument that it can only be applied in that manner is incorrect because AION does not carry only one definition for it's USE.

I guess it does not prove that it cannot be used another way, but I see no reason to believe that aion is used in any way other than "age" since I can find no examples where "age" fails to make perfect sense as a translation of aion.

Quote
Hmm, what you wrote seems to contradict your own point.   If something is of "high grade" (super) but then something is "Higher grade" (superior) then it carries a greater meaning.

Not exactly.  Something that is of "high grade" already implies that it is higher than some norm.

If you look at the etymology of "superior" it comes from "super" Latin which means "over and above" so it already contains the idea of "higher".

Merriam Webster:
Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin, comparative of superus upper, from super over, above

If we say "B is greater than A but C is greater than B" that doesn't make the second "greater" more powerful than the first "greater".  But that's kind of what your doing with super and superior.  You are saying B is super (greater than the norm) but C is superior to B.

Quote
"Dude, I have a super fast ball, but you have a superior fast ball to mine."   Now, tell me how you do not have a fast ball that is greater?

And I could say "Dude, I have a superior fastball, but compared to mine you have a super fastball."  In this case super wins out over superior.

Joe's fast ball is superior to Jim's
Sue has a super fastball.

Between Joe and Sue we don't know whose is faster.

Joe has a superior fastball.
Sue has a super fastball.

Again we don't know whose is faster.


Quote
Compare that with the leap from "age" to "everlasting".

I'm not making the leap,  if you look at the definitions for aion and aionios you will find that "age" is not the only use of the word, so like I said,  even if it is proven that Ray's grammar rule is correct,  that doesn't prevent aionios from carrying the meaning of everlasting.

I wasn't saying you were making that leap.  I was pointing out that the jump from "age" to "everlasting" is greater than the jump (if there is one) from "super" to "superior".  

I agree with your main point that there is no such grammar rule.  Words come to mean whatever they come to mean based on usage and trends and the whims of people who use the words.  If enough people agree to use a word in some way, then eventually that becomes an accepted meaning, and the dictionaries add that definition.





Nice post!  :thumbsup:

I never understood the super vs superior argument either. :mblush: Not that that means a whole lot. :grin:

I can't say that I know what "rule" Ray is referring to when he says that an adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived, but the way that I look at it is that there is still some sort of relationship between the definition of the adjective and the definition of the noun from which it is derived.

For example, we know that something that happens "hourly" happens once per hour because we know what the noun from which it is derived (hour) means.

Something being "perpetual" (hourly, yearly, eonian) doesn't necessitate there being an "endless" nature to it.

And even when it comes to "aionios" the scriptures speak of "aionios TIMES", which does seem (to me) to 'limit' both "aion" and "aionios" to that which is relative to TIME (or "the ages").

Chris

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2010, 02:06:09 AM »


Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


"world without end"
["aiōn aiōn"]

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever"; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

Hi Molly, are you saying that "ἀεί" appears in that verse? If so, can you tell me where? If not, can you tell me the importance of it (in connection with this verse)?

There are several other passages in the NT that refer to things that will not come to an "end" and none of them use "aion" (in any form).

Do you think that there is a reason that it is used in some places and not others or a reason why the words used in those instance (words which have a clear meaning of "endlessness" or "dissolution") are not used here and in the many other place where "aion" is used? 

Just curious.
 

Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2010, 02:49:48 AM »
Quote from: Christ
Hi Molly, are you saying that "ἀεί" appears in that verse? If so, can you tell me where? If not, can you tell me the importance of it (in connection with this verse)?

I don't understand that question.  Does what appear?  I can't read that word.


Quote
There are several other passages in the NT that refer to things that will not come to an "end" and none of them use "aion" (in any form).

I don't really know unless I look at them.  Let's take a look.

But, the impression I get here is that either this age [Messianic] or the ages [if there are more after this one] will never end.  It's kind of shocking to me, actually, and maybe it's not right, but that's what it is looking like to me right now.  I'm even starting to wonder if two different people living in the same time period could actually be literally living in different ages.  It's kind of shaking up my notion of time.

Quote
Do you think that there is a reason that it is used in some places and not others or a reason why the words used in those instance (words which have a clear meaning of "endlessness" or "dissolution") are not used here and in the many other place where "aion" is used?  

I'm thinking to emphasize he is the Lord of ages.


Isaiah 45:17 (King James Version)

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


"everlasting" salvation

H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.


"world without end"

‛ad ‛ôlâm  ‛ad

[implying a duration of perpetuity]



Jude 1:25 (King James Version)

 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

"ever"

also translated 'forevermore"

eis pas aiōn

Which I could literally translate 'into all ages.'





So the question is---is there ever a point when the ages [literally time] ends? I'm thinking not.


bobf

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2010, 03:11:56 AM »
Nice post!  :thumbsup:  I never understood the super vs superior argument either. :mblush: Not that that means a whole lot. :grin:

Thanks.... I thought about it some more after that post.... I don't really see any diff between
super : superior
fast : faster
holy : holier
etc.

Quote
I can't say that I know what "rule" Ray is referring to when he says that an adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived, but the way that I look at it is that there is still some sort of relationship between the definition of the adjective and the definition of the noun from which it is derived. For example, we know that something that happens "hourly" happens once per hour because we know what the noun from which it is derived (hour) means.  Something being "perpetual" (hourly, yearly, eonian) doesn't necessitate there being an "endless" nature to it.

Yeah, that's normally how it works.  Each suffix transforms the noun in some way.  (-less = without, -ly = frequency, -er more of whatever the noun is)  The problem with claiming it's an absolute rule is that accepted usage by people eventually determines the meaning and people don't always follow the rules!

Quote
[And even when it comes to "aionios" the scriptures speak of "aionios TIMES", which does seem (to me) to 'limit' both "aion" and "aionios" to that which is relative [/i] to TIME (or "the ages")

For me the best way to rebut aionion meaning "everlasting" in scripture is not by some logical argument.  The best way is simply to provide scriptural examples where it does not mean everlasting.  I particularly like the OT LXX examples where sin-consequences are called aionion and yet the context shows them to be temporary.

I have a theory, that any given aionion always has some aion in view.  The aion that is appropriate for punishment of sin simply is not the same aion as the aion of life in Christ.


Offline willieH

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2010, 03:56:50 AM »
Hi everybody, I'm back. I've been at L Ray Smith's forum/camp/"cult" (heh heh) for a while. (He's very, very sick. Please pray for him.) Anyway, I think Ray has many things right, but his article on aionios and the related words left something to be desired. I just want to get to the bottom of this. Does aionios, mean itself "eternal" or "endless"? What about the phrase "ages of the ages" used in Revelation? I just want to know.

Thanks.

Any term in ANY LANGUAGE which is not COMPREHENDED by the user, is INVALID.

No man can comprehend that which has NO BEGINNING... (regardless of their empty claims to do so)... for if they could, then they would readily explain how something was just "ALWAYS THERE" by defining it into words (for that is what DEFINITION, is)...

To date -- NO one has come forth to explain this...  :dontknow:

Therefore, for a FINITE entity to attach "ETERNITY" (which is not undertood by them) to AION ..or.. AIONIOS or any other word such as OWLAM in the OT, is simply  INVALID... 

Irregardless of the FALSE claims of the user... who cannot explain that which has NO BEGINNING, which is (from a FINITE viewpoint) an UNEXPLAINABLE attibute of GOD and ETERNITY.

And an INVALID act for one FINITE entity to "attach" such, to another FINITE entity.

...willieH    :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2010, 04:09:10 AM »
willieH --  :grin:

The problem here is not AIONIOS being greater than AION, it is in the usage of it as ETERNITY, or FOR EVER, and the attempt to DISASSOCIATE it with TIME that is the problem...

TIME has a BEGINNING, ...ETERNITY does not... end of story.

No matter how short in stature the parent is than the child when both are in adulthood... does not mean the child is no longer of the SAME BREED as the parent.

AIONIOS, because it is derived from a term associated with the CREATED entity of TIME, must therefore in some capacity, remain of the "TIME" genre...

ETERNITY preceeded TIME and was the IN PLACE platform, from which TIME came into BEING...  :dontknow:

The created entity cannot define that which created it... the CLAY cannot and never will summarize or conclude, the POTTER...

TIME will NEVER MEASURE ...ETERNITY...

...willieH   :HeartThrob:

Chris

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2010, 04:14:52 AM »

I have a theory, that any given aionion always has some aion in view.  The aion that is appropriate for punishment of sin simply is not the same aion as the aion of life in Christ.


This is interesting. Can you give me some details with regard to how you see this?

Chris

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2010, 04:58:28 AM »
Quote from: Christ
Hi Molly, are you saying that "ἀεί" appears in that verse? If so, can you tell me where? If not, can you tell me the importance of it (in connection with this verse)?

I don't understand that question.  Does what appear?  I can't read that word.
Sorry, I copied it from your post that I quoted [G104]. I'll highlight it in red.

Quote from: Molly
G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever"; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

Quote from: Christ
There are several other passages in the NT that refer to things that will not come to an "end" and none of them use "aion" (in any form).

I don't really know unless I look at them.  Let's take a look.
Ok, I was thinking of:

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


This verse uses "αἰῶνας" (aiōnas) in relation to the reign of Christ but "οὐκ τέλος" (ouk telos) in relation to the endlessness of His kingdom


aiōnas = a space of time, an age

ouk = not, no
telos = an end, a toll



I Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

This verse uses "οὐδέποτε πίπτει" (oudepote piptei)

oudepote = never
piptei = to fail

it also uses

καταργηθήσονται (katargēthēsontai) and καταργηθήσεται (katargēthēsetai) = to render inoperative, abolish

And

παύσονται (   pausontai) = to make to cease, hinder



Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

This verse uses "ἐκλείψουσιν" (ekleipsousin) = to leave out, leave off, by impl. to cease



Quote from: Molly
But, the impression I get here is that either this age [Messianic] or the ages [if there are more after this one] will never end.  It's kind of shocking to me, actually, and maybe it's not right, but that's what it is looking like to me right now.  I'm even starting to wonder if two different people living in the same time period could actually be literally living in different ages.  It's kind of shaking up my notion of time.
So you don't see the "ages" connected to "time"?



Quote from: Molly
Quote from: Chris
Do you think that there is a reason that it is used in some places and not others or a reason why the words used in those instance (words which have a clear meaning of "endlessness" or "dissolution") are not used here and in the many other place where "aion" is used?  

I'm thinking to emphasize he is the Lord of ages.


Isaiah 45:17 (King James Version)

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


"everlasting" salvation

H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.


"world without end"

‛ad ‛ôlâm  ‛ad

[implying a duration of perpetuity]



Jude 1:25 (King James Version)

 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

"ever"

also translated 'forevermore"

eis pas aiōn

Which I could literally translate 'into all ages.'





So the question is---is there ever a point when the ages [literally time] ends? I'm thinking not.


That answers the question above, but can you tell me why you think the ages do not come to an end (why they are not connected with "time" rather than "eternity")?

Going back to the verse in Luke, Christ reigns "forever" (aiōnas = a space of time, an age) and His kingdom has "no end" (ouk telos = no end)

How does Christ reigning "forever" (aiōnas) reconcile with 1 Cor 15:25?

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

If "aiōnas" actually does mean "forever"?

According to 1 Cor 15:25, Christ reigns only "until" the last enemy is subdued. Then Christ and all that has been given unto Him from the Father are subject to the Father such that God will be "all in all".

So how do you reconcile those two views, if you see no contradiction when taking "aiōnas" to mean "forever"?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2010, 06:29:49 AM »
Thanks.... I thought about it some more after that post.... I don't really see any diff between
super : superior
fast : faster
holy : holier
etc.

It is because with your list your not actually using them in any context.   

If there is no difference in Super and Superior based on how they are used, then I really would like you to explain the following.

"I have a Super fast ball, but yours is Superior to mine"   Yes, you can use those two words many different ways, I certainly am not making that point at all.

That does not change the intended meaning in how I use them here.   So if there is no difference, then my sentence above would convey that our fast balls are essentially the same,  but there is no way to explain how that is true based upon how I used the words.



Quote

For me the best way to rebut aionion meaning "everlasting" in scripture is not by some logical argument. 


I don't have to refute it either way, I see how that term in the abstract can be a help in understanding scripture.   I do not argue that "age" doesn't make sense throughout scripture,  but to say there is no use for that term in scripture no matter how logical your argument sounds is not true.

Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2010, 06:32:32 AM »
Quote from: Christ
Sorry, I copied it from your post that I quoted [G104]. I'll highlight it in red.


No that word aei is not in the text.  It is referred to in the definition for aion as the root, "From the same as G104".   I just put it in there to show that 'aion can mean 'always,' or 'forever.' We can see it in the root.  It can also mean an age [of indeterminate length].  It depends on the context I think.

Quote
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


This verse uses "αἰῶνας" (aiōnas) in relation to the reign of Christ but "οὐκ τέλος" (ouk telos) in relation to the endlessness of His kingdom


aiōnas = a space of time, an age

ouk = not, no
telos = an end, a toll

 I think those two statements are reinforcing each other.

  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob..

"forever"

eis  aiōn

Two words make up that word forever, --into the ages, or into eternity.


..and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

"end"

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.



Those two statements are saying the same thing in terms of time--And the same thing as this which has even more emphasis--


Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

"for ever and ever"

eis aiōn aiōn

Into the ages of ages--into eternity.