Author Topic: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!  (Read 9786 times)

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Lupac

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Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« on: January 05, 2010, 06:56:50 PM »
Hi everybody, I'm back. I've been at L Ray Smith's forum/camp/"cult" (heh heh) for a while. (He's very, very sick. Please pray for him.) Anyway, I think Ray has many things right, but his article on aionios and the related words left something to be desired. I just want to get to the bottom of this. Does aionios, mean itself "eternal" or "endless"? What about the phrase "ages of the ages" used in Revelation? I just want to know.

Thanks.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2010, 07:11:50 PM »
Hi everybody, I'm back. I've been at L Ray Smith's forum/camp/"cult" (heh heh) for a while. (He's very, very sick. Please pray for him.) Anyway, I think Ray has many things right, but his article on aionios and the related words left something to be desired. I just want to get to the bottom of this. Does aionios, mean itself "eternal" or "endless"? What about the phrase "ages of the ages" used in Revelation? I just want to know.

Thanks.

One problem is the assertion that Aion "only" means an age,  this is incorrect,  Ray also sites a grammar rule that is not an actual grammar rule.

He cites that the adjective of a word cannot take on a greater meaning than the word it is associated with.   There are two problems, even if it is one day proven that this is an actual grammar rule then we still are left with the multiple meanings of Aion of which aionios with a definition of everlasting would not carry a greater meaning in the first place.

Secondly,  Superior is an adjective of Super contradicting the assertion of such a rule.


That said,  when people begin to understand the abstract nature of the definitions of aion and aionios possibly intended by the culture of ancient greek language then that definition poses no problem whatsoever to Jesus saving all mankind as declared in 1 Timothy 2:4 and in fact increases our understanding of the physical and spiritual at the same time.

Not sure if that is helpful, but it is what I see.


Offline Pierac

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2010, 08:07:36 PM »
Hi everybody, I'm back. I've been at L Ray Smith's forum/camp/"cult" (heh heh) for a while. (He's very, very sick. Please pray for him.) Anyway, I think Ray has many things right, but his article on aionios and the related words left something to be desired. I just want to get to the bottom of this. Does aionios, mean itself "eternal" or "endless"? What about the phrase "ages of the ages" used in Revelation? I just want to know.

Thanks.


Excellent little booklet here that may help...


http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Hanson takes the word usage used in the Greek classics too.


Enjoy
Paul


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2010, 09:15:42 PM »
 :cloud9: I've heard some of you mention L.Ray Smith before. Anybody got a link so I can see what you're all talking about? Thanks......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 09:23:24 PM »
:cloud9: I've heard some of you mention L.Ray Smith before. Anybody got a link so I can see what you're all talking about? Thanks......

 :icon_flower:
Im familiar With Rays Writings.. this maybe the link...

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Lupac

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 01:00:42 AM »
Hi everybody, I'm back. I've been at L Ray Smith's forum/camp/"cult" (heh heh) for a while. (He's very, very sick. Please pray for him.) Anyway, I think Ray has many things right, but his article on aionios and the related words left something to be desired. I just want to get to the bottom of this. Does aionios, mean itself "eternal" or "endless"? What about the phrase "ages of the ages" used in Revelation? I just want to know.

Thanks.

One problem is the assertion that Aion "only" means an age,  this is incorrect,  Ray also sites a grammar rule that is not an actual grammar rule.

He cites that the adjective of a word cannot take on a greater meaning than the word it is associated with.   There are two problems, even if it is one day proven that this is an actual grammar rule then we still are left with the multiple meanings of Aion of which aionios with a definition of everlasting would not carry a greater meaning in the first place.

Secondly,  Superior is an adjective of Super contradicting the assertion of such a rule.


That said,  when people begin to understand the abstract nature of the definitions of aion and aionios possibly intended by the culture of ancient greek language then that definition poses no problem whatsoever to Jesus saving all mankind as declared in 1 Timothy 2:4 and in fact increases our understanding of the physical and spiritual at the same time.

Not sure if that is helpful, but it is what I see.



Okay, from what I understand, the argument is this. Ether aionios always means eternal, or aionios always mean pertaining to the ages. How exactly was the word(s) used in Greece/Surrounding Area circa. 50AD or so? I've been told that aion = eon and aionios = eonion. But even those words have very odd definitions. According to a few dictionaries, eon can mean, "an indefinitely long period of time", "two ages", and "1 Billion Years (Astronomy)".

Some people's argument seem to be that Plato used aionios to mean "eternity", did he? Did it really mean "a time with no end"? I believe God will save all men, but I'm also very afraid he won't. (Most/some will go to "hell" and/or be annihilated.) Thanks. (What about the phrase "to the ages of the ages"?)

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 01:21:42 AM »
The Lord defines Himself as I AM, and that tells us that there is no time in the Spirit of God.
Why concern yourself with something that does not exist?


"Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we all burn"

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2010, 01:59:50 AM »

So that we may become Like Him:
Seems like "eating the apple" was actually the wise choice!

Offline Pierac

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2010, 02:57:02 AM »
:cloud9: I've heard some of you mention L.Ray Smith before. Anybody got a link so I can see what you're all talking about? Thanks......


The main site is here

http://bible-truths.com/

I loved his earlier works much better, as he kinda got... let's just say different, after he became more popular! Still Ray has a very curious mind when it comes to scripture... I like peeking in to it when I read his works!   :thumbsup:

You gotta love his desire to understand! Just watch his new "Does God learn" video on his web site... Such sweet freedom to seek understanding!  :wink2:


Paul
:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 03:13:13 AM »
 :cloud9: Thanks........and I love curious minds when it comes to scripture  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

bobf

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 08:43:47 AM »
One problem is the assertion that Aion "only" means an age,  this is incorrect,

I disagree.  Can you show an example in the bible where aion tranlated as age would not make sense?  I'm referring to aion not to aionios.

Quote
Ray also sites a grammar rule that is not an actual grammar rule.

I agree, but it seems to be at least almost always true for nouns turning into adjectives by adding a common suffix.  I have yet to see a good counter-example.

Quote
He cites that the adjective of a word cannot take on a greater meaning than the word it is associated with.   There are two problems, even if it is one day proven that this is an actual grammar rule then we still are left with the multiple meanings of Aion of which aionios with a definition of everlasting would not carry a greater meaning in the first place.

Secondly,  Superior is an adjective of Super contradicting the assertion of such a rule.

I don't think "super" and "superior" is a good counter-example.  According to Merriam Webseter "super" means "of high grade or quality" and the suffix "-ior" means "pertaining to" and "superior" means "situated higher up, of higher rank, quality, or importance".  I don't see that "superior" is taking on greater meaning than "super".  The pitcher with a super fastball has a fastball that is superior to the average pitcher.  Compare that with the leap from "age" to "everlasting".



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 12:48:21 PM »
The tricky part is that language doesn't always follow it's own grammar rules.
A few decades ago cool and hot had different meanings. Today they often mean the same.
I can't think of a equalivalent in English but in Dutch a century most certainly can mean forever with suffix.
We got a suffix "heid"
Hardheid -> how hard something is.
Many similar examples but then they grey area starts.
We got 2 words for beauty (actually more..)
One is a outdated word rarely used for beauty.
But the same word is very often used for something that is clean.
When the suffix is added it suddenly means beautiful.
Clean=clean
Clean-heid = beauty (of people)

Now to aion.
Not a perfect match but:
We got a suffix "ig"
Yellow-ig -> Yelowish
Water-ig -> Waterish
Mud-ig -> Muddy
Century-ig -> forever

We got a short list of grammar rules with and huge exception list. Perhaps Centry-ig once followed the main grammar rules.
But the use became forever and so it got added to the exception list....

So it's very dangerous to apply modern English grammer from a western society to a 2000 year old eastern society.
Until not so long ago not even experienced Greek scholars didn't fully understand Koine Greek. Later they learned it's grammar rules were quite different from the classical Greek.
Both Greek. Both around the same time. And still so different...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 12:53:53 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Lupac

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 05:06:58 PM »
So, in the end, does it matter what aion and aionios mean in regards to UR? Can anyone explain how it doesn't?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2010, 05:50:53 PM »
So, in the end, does it matter what aion and aionios mean in regards to UR? Can anyone explain how it doesn't?


In regaurds to UR, no.

The perspective is that we know that God has placed thing to our understanding in limited time frames,  "Ages" "perpetual things"  (perpetual is not inherantly eternal either, a plant can bloom perpetually during its limited life span). 

So punishment (mathew 25:46) can be perpetual in that light.

However, from our perspective in the abstract we may not know how long things will last, we do not know if the new heaven and new earth is forever, we cannot say that it is or isn't,  things seem like they will take forever, things seem like they last forever.

That elevator took forever.....  No one seems to object and argue with someone who says that , why not?

So from those perspectives we can gain more understanding and the argument that divides is gone, if people will allow it to vanish.   





Lupac

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2010, 06:10:50 PM »
What about the phrase "ages of the ages" used in Revelation? To me, it seems to mean "Some ages of all the ages." or something like that. For fun, I decided to see how "eternal" and "forever" would be written in Japanese. Japanese itself is a very isolated language, but it has lots of influences from Chinese and English.

They have a single kanji meaning "eternal", but it can also mean "lengthy" or "long". It's "永", but they don't write it by itself. No, the first entry I get with my dictionary when I search for "eternal" is "fushi" or "不死" it means "eternal life". The kanji literally mean "non-death". Amazingly, the next entry is "kou" or "劫", it's a Buddhist term meaning roughly the same as "eon" or "age". Funny, isn't it? "Nagano, or "永の" means "eternal", but not in and of itself. It means "eternal-" meaning a word has to come after it to signify an eternal-something.

So I try looking for the word "forever". The first word is "chiyo" or "千世". It means "thousand years", "very long period", or "forever". All the other words for "forever" are just a kanji meaning "very long period", but repeated, so it's written twice. I don't know what all this means, but it's interesting.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2010, 06:16:25 PM »
One problem is the assertion that Aion "only" means an age,  this is incorrect,

I disagree.  Can you show an example in the bible where aion tranlated as age would not make sense?  I'm referring to aion not to aionios.


The answer to your question is  "No I cannot", however  that does not mean that it cannot be used another way.   

My argument is not against the definition age , I am saying that the argument that it can only be applied in that manner is incorrect because AION does not carry only one definition for it's USE.

Quote
I don't think "super" and "superior" is a good counter-example.  According to Merriam Webseter "super" means "of high grade or quality" and the suffix "-ior" means "pertaining to" and "superior" means "situated higher up, of higher rank, quality, or importance".

I don't see that "superior" is taking on greater meaning than "super"



Hmm, what you wrote seems to contradict your own point.   If something is of "high grade" (super) but then something is "Higher grade" (superior) then it carries a greater meaning.



Quote
The pitcher with a super fastball has a fastball that is superior to the average pitcher. 


"Dude, I have a super fast ball, but you have a superior fast ball to mine."   Now, tell me how you do not have a fast ball that is greater?

Quote

Compare that with the leap from "age" to "everlasting".

I'm not making the leap,  if you look at the definitions for aion and aionios you will find that "age" is not the only use of the word, so like I said,  even if it is proven that Ray's grammar rule is correct,  that doesn't prevent aionios from carrying the meaning of everlasting.










Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2010, 06:18:04 PM »
Quote
I disagree.  Can you show an example in the bible where aion tranlated as age would not make sense?  I'm referring to aion not to aionios.

And, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of time.
--Mat 28:20


"Time"

[also translated as "the world"]


G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.




Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


"I will never"

G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2010, 06:22:33 PM »
What about the phrase "ages of the ages" used in Revelation?


I think that it is a phrase as you may have indicated that peers into our perspective of the unknown.  The bible doesn;t tell us everything we'd like to know.

For instance,  the new heaven and new earth,   what determines that it is forever other than conjecture?    This heaven and earth realm we are in now passes away,  what in scripture says the new one doesn't.  

We do not know, but obviously from our perspective this one here has been around a long time, and may be around for longer, do we really know even now, totally and completely how long or when this one truly began, or when it will truly end?


Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2010, 06:27:54 PM »


Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


"world without end"
["aiōn aiōn"]

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever"; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2010, 06:34:46 PM »


Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


"world without end"
["aiōn aiōn"]

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever"; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.


There are translational differences.

The CLV

Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus intofor all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!


The greek text  does not contain any words that translate to "without end" in that specific verse.










Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2010, 06:42:44 PM »
Quote
There are translational differences.

The CLV

Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus intofor all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!


The greek text  does not contain any words that translate to "without end" in that specific verse.

"World without end" is one of the definitions E-sword gives for
"aiōn" but the word appears in the Greek text twice here
["aiōn aiōn"] presumably for emphasis.

Do you really think the Lord Jesus is ever going away?  

Eph 3:21  Unto him846 be glory1391 in1722 the3588 church1577 by1722 Christ5547 Jesus2424 throughout1519 all3956 ages,1074 world without end.165, 165 Amen.281


"ages"

G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 06:46:45 PM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2010, 06:49:11 PM »
Quote
There are translational differences.

The CLV

Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus intofor all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!


The greek text  does not contain any words that translate to "without end" in that specific verse.

"World without end" is one of the definitions E-sword gives for
"aiōn" but the word appears in the Greek text twice here
["aiōn aiōn"] presumably for emphasis.

Do you really think the Lord Jesus is ever going away?  What doesn't appear is the word, "generations."


Eph 3:21  Unto him846 be glory1391 in1722 the3588 church1577 by1722 Christ5547 Jesus2424 throughout1519 all3956 ages,1074 world without end.165, 165 Amen.281


I stand corrected about one of the uses of aion, but  where is it specific to the new heaven and new earth being forever?


Did I say or even imply that Jesus is going away,  what point is it exactly that your wanting to make?


Offline Molly

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2010, 06:57:21 PM »
Quote
I stand corrected about one of the uses of aion, but  where is it specific to the new heaven and new earth being forever?


Did I say or even imply that Jesus is going away,  what point is it exactly that your wanting to make?

I changed my post somewhat, go take a look.  You are too fast for me.

"World without end' means no ending--that is forever and ever--["aiōn aiōn"].


This is an example where "aiōn" means forever.

It applies both to Jesus [who is never going away] and by extension to the ekklesia--until the end of time--which will never happen because he will never leave us or forsake us--and the end of time will only happen after forever.


World without end.  Amen.


aiōn aiōn amēn
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 07:02:29 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2010, 07:10:45 PM »
KJVEphesians 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1074 genea, genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
Meaning:  1) fathered, birth, nativity 2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family 2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy 2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time 4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space

world without end
World=aion
end=aion
without is added by KJV

The above gave me from teh start a feeling it's not about the fact that Jesus is 'without an end'

Christian Bible.
may He be gloified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! Amen.

Age -> Singular

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Aion, Aionios, Ages of the Ages, aagghhh!
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2010, 07:16:40 PM »

This is an example where "aiōn" means forever.


Ok, I see your point now that you have explained.    And yes, I agree that the use of the word implies more than just a limited period of time.