Adulterating the Word of God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

[You must choose the gift of salvation

I don't get this one at all  He chooses us, he draws all unto himself. We are saved because - God can save us, God wants to save us, and we need to be saved.

To understand this you have to recognize the cause of our choices.   We do choose Christ in the sense that even though Jesus chooses us and God draws us, it is the power of God that "causes" the choice.   

From a Christendom perspective,  it is diffucult to argue that we do not make choices,  for instance, God may draw you to turn the pages of your bible to a certain place.  But it still is you, that is making that choice as a reaction to Gods influence.

These two verses may help explain that even better.

Phl 2:12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,


You are carrying your own salvation...  Why?  Because it is yours and you cannot carry someone elses.   BUT,  the next verse is crucial.

Phl 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.


This is the cause that drives you to carry your own salvation.
The nature of our choices is the same.


Because most Universalists do not believe our will is free, Christendom relates that to being mindless drones.  They perceive that as denying the need for Grace and Faith and say that we make Jesus  meaningless.

In Christendom, the power for ones destiny is given to the individual and of his own free will must make the choice or miss out.

In General a Universalist recognizes the biblical truth that our choices are caused by a force greater than ourselves and that Force is God who is sovereign and the one in ultimate control of mans destiny.

[jabcat]

I must sadly say that this recent advent of people saying that the bible is not the Word of God, is something new to me. You talk about a timely post, I just happen to be sharing about the Adulteration of the Word of God. Jesus in John 12:49 reveals that everything he Spoke, he did so by the direct commandment of God, and not his own views. So everything Jesus said is the Word of God. And the bible is full of places where God spoke himself, so this " New Teaching" that the bible is not the Word of God, in my view, is an Adulteration of Gods Word.

And I am very surprised by it, its kind of like;" What will they come up with Next!"

I tell you, some of us just grab hold of any doctrine and just let it pick your mind up like a wave and take you all kinds of places.

Peace.

This is exactly what I was addressing in my first post in this thread, Mickiel.  Adulterating the Word of God very well may be outside the UR camp, but I'm afraid, also within.  When one decides to think scripture is not inspired, then I'm "free" to draw my own conclusions about myself, life, God, etc., rather than have His Word conform me to His image.  IMO, that's one source of so many apostacies in the name of God and what Paul calls "destructive heresies".  When the truths of God's Word (which I believe scripture will support is Jesus, His written, spoken, revealed mind and will) are no longer respected as a whole, then "anything goes"...then good becomes evil, evil becomes good (in one's eyes), the deceivers have a "legitimate" platform, and many are spiritually injured.  That's why Paul said be on guard and refute error.  Finally, none of us have all the answers, know it all, or have perfect doctrine figured out...but IMO, we had best be seeking those answers within the Word and not in our own mind, which is naturally against God.  God's blessing, James.

(Many good points A-B and Paul  .)

[Mickiel]

I must sadly say that this recent advent of people saying that the bible is not the Word of God, is something new to me. You talk about a timely post, I just happen to be sharing about the Adulteration of the Word of God. Jesus in John 12:49 reveals that everything he Spoke, he did so by the direct commandment of God, and not his own views. So everything Jesus said is the Word of God. And the bible is full of places where God spoke himself, so this " New Teaching" that the bible is not the Word of God, in my view, is an Adulteration of Gods Word.

And I am very surprised by it, its kind of like;" What will they come up with Next!"

I tell you, some of us just grab hold of any doctrine and just let it pick your mind up like a wave and take you all kinds of places.

Peace.

This is exactly what I was addressing in my first post in this thread, Mickiel.  Adulterating the Word of God very well may be outside the UR camp, but I'm afraid, also within.  When one decides to think scripture is not inspired, then I'm "free" to draw my own conclusions about myself, life, God, etc., rather than have His Word conform me to His image.  IMO, that's one source of so many apostacies in the name of God and what Paul calls "destructive heresies".  When the truths of God's Word (which I believe scripture will support is Jesus, His written, spoken, revealed mind and will) are no longer respected as a whole, then "anything goes"...then good becomes evil, evil becomes good (in one's eyes), the deceivers have a "legitimate" platform, and many are spiritually injured.  That's why Paul said be on guard and refute error.  Finally, none of us have all the answers, know it all, or have perfect doctrine figured out...but IMO, we had best be seeking those answers within the Word and not in our own mind, which is naturally against God.  God's blessing, James.

(Many good points A-B and Paul  .)

Well I agree with you. I mean, its no telling whatelse is on certain peoples mind, and if the powers that be looks to seduce a believer, using the Bible is a very tatical way to seduce them, without them being aware of the seduction. But hey, this happens all the time, and certainly has happened to me more than I care to admit. I have walked right into some bueatiful deceptions, thinking I was growing into some " New Knowledge." So, you know, we just need Gods help, and need it All the Time.

Notice 2 Pet. 1:21;" For NO prophecy was EVER made by an act of human will, but men who were moved BY the Holy Spirit " Spoke FROM God!" No prophecy was man made, which conversely means that ALL prophecy has come directly from Gods own Mouth! Everything Jesus taught was directly from God. Both these two dynamics ARE the Word of God, and I think this is what some fail to see. There are biblical writtings that came from the opinion of men, but they admitted to it being their opinion, and not Gods, well some of them admitted to it a few times. And not every writting in the bible is directly from Gods Mouth, but you cannot, because of these known facts, dismiss the bible in its entirety as not being the Word of God. That is serious error in your study and belief.

Peace.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul

You must choose the gift of salvation

I don't get this one at all  He chooses us, he draws all unto himself. We are saved because - God can save us, God wants to save us, and we need to be saved.

To understand this you have to recognize the cause of our choices.   We do choose Christ in the sense that even though Jesus chooses us and God draws us, it is the power of God that "causes" the choice. 

I think (not completely sure) that I agree with you here bro...

About "choosing"... as we consider that CHRIST said: (John 15:16) Ye have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I... have CHOSEN YOU...

The "Choosing" we do is CAUSED by GOD and has been DECLARED By Him...  which means WE did not actually do the "choosing". 

From a Christendom perspective,  it is diffucult to argue that we do not make choices,  for instance, God may draw you to turn the pages of your bible to a certain place.  But it still is you, that is making that choice as a reaction to Gods influence.

Again, I may be in agreement here... but might I say:

That we turn pages, is the manifestation of the "choosing" of God that we do so...  GOD does not just "influence" us, He has noted WHAT we shall DO... PRIOR to that ..."doing"...

He WORKS ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11)

And has DECLARED the END from the BEGINNING, ...we simply "choose" according to THAT DECLARATION (Is 46:10-11)

These two verses may help explain that even better.

Phl 2:12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,


You are carrying your own salvation...  Why?  Because it is yours and you cannot carry someone elses.   BUT, the next verse is crucial.

The Apostle PAUL is, in this verse  DISCOURAGING sharades... RELIGIOUS practices... behaving as a CHRISTIAN while in his presence, but then resorting to "mice like" misbehavior when "the cat's away"...

This is prevalent in Christianity in many... "Sunday" Christian "behavior"... Monday-Saturday WORLDlike "behavior"...  If we are honest, most (ALL) of us have "been there, done that"... 

We do not "work out" our own Salvation... if this were so, then CHRIST is reduced to a presence/influence which WE wield, deciding that "influence" to be active in our experience as WE CHOOSE it to be...

What PAUL is actually saying here is, that as we LIVE, we are to rightly carry the respect of YHVH ...AS we LIVE... (which is WHAT CHRIST in fact DID)

We do this because, HE has COMPLETED the WORK (saying "IT IS FINISHED") on our behalf due to His GREAT LOVE for us... and, which is why PAUL said: 

(Rom 12:1) ...I beseech you therefore, brethren ...BY... the mercies OF GOD... that ye present your bodies a LIVING SACRIFICE, ...HOLY, acceptable unto GOD, ...your REASONABLE service.

The KEYWORD in this verse is ...BY... for it is only BY the mercy of GOD, that this can BE DONE...  any "sacrifice" in order to be noted as HOLY, is one which is PERFORMED by GOD... and ORDAINED ...BY Him, to be so...

What "we DO"... is submit to that HOLINESS and let ...IT... WORK HOLINESS, IN us...

Phl 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.


This is the cause that drives you to carry your own salvation.
The nature of our choices is the same.

Again, I'm thinking we actually agree, and maybe it MY PERCEPTION of your wording which seems to pose a problem for me... which would be my shortcoming, not yours... 

In my observation, though this appears to be a nice observation...  (correct me if I misread you) it seems to misrepresent WHO is actually IN CHARGE, and WHO is actually WORKING HOLINESS, for SALVATION is a HOLY WORK to redeem those (us) INVOLVED in Evil, ...FROM involvement in EVIL... returning us to HOLINESS which is empty of involvement in it... 

MEN do not WORK HOLINESS... It is GOD who directs HOLINESS to be wrought IN MEN... which, apart from that HOLY direction, "choose" evil... 

Because most Universalists do not believe our will is free, Christendom relates that to being mindless drones.  They perceive that as denying the need for Grace and Faith and say that we make Jesus  meaningless.

In Christendom, the power for ones destiny is given to the individual and of his own free will must make the choice or miss out.

In General a Universalist recognizes the biblical truth that our choices are caused by a force greater than ourselves and that Force is God who is sovereign and the one in ultimate control of mans destiny.

I gave an example to a friend the other day, which I believe does well to describe God's SOVEREIGNTY within HIS BODY...

My friend is a concert PIANIST... and I asked him... when you sit down at the PIANO, do your fingers play what THEY wish, or do they do the WILL of the HEAD (YOU)?

Does this relegate the fingers of the BODY to be MINDLESS DRONES? Or does it in truth, note them to be SERVANTS of the WILL of the HEAD...

CHRIST is the HEAD brother P... we are instructed to be SERVANTS... which is exactly HOW HIS BODY members should RIGHTLY respond to Him... just as my friend's "fingers" serve my friend as HE plays...  The fingers do NOT play, neither do they KNOW the music... they are TOOLS which are subject to the WILL of the one REALLY PLAYING and IN CONTROL.

ALL things are being placed BELOW (underneath and subject to) the HEAD in the end, that GOD may be ALL in ALL:

(1 Cor 15:27-28

27...for He HATH PUT [past tense] ALL THINGS ...UNDER His feet. [lowest "body" part]  But when He saith ALL THINGS are put under him, it is manifest that HE [YHVH] is excepted which PUT ALL THINGS ...UNDER Him

28...and when ALL THINGS shall be SUBDUED unto Him, then shall the SON also Himself be subject unto HIM YHVH that PUT ALL THINGS under Him, that GOD YHVH may BE, ALL in ALL...

peaCe...
...willieH 

[Paul Hazelwood]

About "choosing"... as we consider that CHRIST said: (John 15:16) Ye have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I... have CHOSEN YOU...

I do not think we are to far apart on how we see this.   Ultimatly God is in control of everything.   How we are wording things is not a significant difference to me.