Author Topic: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell  (Read 4482 times)

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arcticmonster2003

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A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« on: August 13, 2007, 03:09:28 PM »
Thought I would post these, from a ET forum, these are my replies, thought I would share here by copying and pasteing

arcticmonster2003
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:24 am    Post subject:     

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They have willingly made themselves the enemies of Christ, therefore making themselves our enemies too. Yes, we are limited to seeing things in the only way we know right now, but our beings will be so much more like Him in Glory. If He sees people who reject Him as enemies, then so will we. ( my opinion )


Above quote from perhaps2day

Hello perhaps2day, yes, this was the paradox that I was addressing, that people willingly choose to be enemies of God, this also makes them our enemies.

The paradox is he told us to love them, can we not think that he will love them too and not torment them for a quadrillion million billion years times forever?

And since most christians would agree that Satan and his demons has some power to deceive people and to set peoples minds in certain ways, is it not possible that God is able to issue one command with his voice and no man or woman would be evil but rather transformed. And not only transformed but they would also have much depth. Is this not the transformation that was promised to all men?

1 Corinthians 15
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It seems that the part "For as in Adam all die" is interpreted by doctine to actually mean literally "all" but the "so in Christ shall all be made alive" is interpreted in doctine to actually not include all but only those who believe. Is this a translation error or a doctrine error? If you don't believe in Adam does that mean you are not under Adam's judgement and death? I would say no, that whether you believe in Adam or not you are most certainly feeling his judgement. I would also say that all will be Christ's, God is able to make each man and woman accept their salvation thru Christ, and has not chosen to do so at the same time, but will, each in their own order. He is God, his will is to save us, and his will WILL be done.

If every man born after Adam was in judgement to know good and evil because of Adams sin (remember if Adam wouldn't have sinned we wouldn't be in this pickle), then didn't God also think it just to save all men through one man, though each in their own order, but all in the last day? Will not God reveal Christ to every man (each in their own order). Remember some people like the apostle Paul actually have to have him appear personally and supernaturally to believe.

This is why this is so interesting to me, I want to know God, (my loving father), and not doctrine which sometimes seems make my father out to be some monster. I myself, being evil, would not torment someone for eternity, and my father is good. (though he does correct and punish us) I think that eternal torment is like locking you kid up in the basement till he dies, and telling him, you had plenty of warnings. Are we not children and not yet fully developed?


arcticmonster2003
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject:     

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Quote:
And might we not see those who have rejected serving the Lord in an entirely different light from that entertained on earth"even though we were connected to them closely in the flesh?
 


above quote from prays4u

is it not possible that those who have rejected serving the Lord will also see an entirely different light from that they entertained on earth once they see their loving father and realize they were wrong about everything?


lets remember

we are currently in an "evil" state
a human lifetime, lets say 100 years, is a very short period of time for someone who is blind to see (as compared to their eternal torment), unless God chooses to give them sight here, remembering of course in this "evil" state it is very hard to make decisions affecting next month, much less can a blind person make a competent decision affecting forever. And lets not forget to add on top of this decision that Satan and his minions are constantly working hard to make sure they make the wrong decision. And lets not forget that we are also children, and children also make the wrong decision because they do not see anything and are "blind" to everything exept what they want right now.

Lets remember that God has hardened the hearts of many for his purposes, he even hardened Pauls for awhile.

Their are many scriptures that can be used as an argument for these things, but let us not forget the scriptures that support them as well. And that said I choose to find the light and love of God. I am well aware that if someone looks for the darkness in the bible that that is what they will find, darkness. Afterall the bible is called the sword of God and God did say that it would be used to judge the peoples, those who look for a loving God will find him, and also those who find a God that does not seem very loving at all will most certainly find him. And both will find him in the Bible.

One thing I do feel, it would be a great defeat for Satan if everyone found the loving god, who indeed loves all men and women, and will save all of them in due time.

Here I talk about beliefs that truly would get me kicked out of many churches just like Jesus said I would. I assure you that you will not be kicked out of any church for talking about people being tormented for eternity, kinda ironic isn't it?

These are the things I am seeking the awnsers to: Are we being lied to? Are those who teach us being lied to? Am I wrong? Do I just not understand? Am I right? Why can't this be discussed in church? Why is the idea that all of man will be saved met with gnashing teeth in many places when it is such a loving belief that can be at least argued with scripture just like many other christian beliefs are argued about when scripture seems to justify one position or the other?
 
 



« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 08:06:22 AM by SeekerSA »

arcticmonster2003

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2007, 07:27:29 AM »
If you want to follow this further you can look directly at this link

http://forums.ourchurch.com/viewtopic.php?p=9565#9565
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 08:07:30 AM by SeekerSA »

julzabro2

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2007, 11:18:03 PM »
artic said: "Here I talk about beliefs that truly would get me kicked out of many churches just like Jesus said I would. I assure you that you will not be kicked out of any church for talking about people being tormented for eternity, kinda ironic isn't it?

These are the things I am seeking the awnsers to: Are we being lied to? Are those who teach us being lied to? Am I wrong? Do I just not understand? Am I right? Why can't this be discussed in church? Why is the idea that all of man will be saved met with gnashing teeth in many places when it is such a loving belief that can be at least argued with scripture just like many other christian beliefs are argued about when scripture seems to justify one position or the other? "

VERY well put!!!  :happygrin:

You can't even bring up ALL being saved on most supposed Christian disc. boards much less a church!!! I am here because I was just banned for doing that very thing!!!  :sigh:

I believe that these are those reserved/blinded....like the Pharisees and Sadducees. And, it may be possible, that they who WERE chosen as the oracles of God who SO blasphemed His name...yet, for our sakes...for those of faith to be brought in...may not only be the fallen angels but MAY be the many called.

Maybe the many called is Israel (those stuck in the Law), but the few choosen are those that are CHOOSEN for faith by the Author of it!

Seeker

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 06:11:57 AM »
I've been reading your discussions about "If God is love then how can many people believe he would send us to hell?"  Good answers and food for thought.  I have a question to add to this topic and would like to hear your input as I am very stumped at the moment:

If God is love, then how do we explain terrible things like Rape, Murder, Torture, Violence, Abuse, etc.???  It would seem that he would protect us from these things, but even good people suffer...this is clear from bible stories and just looking around to every day life.  Why would a "loving", "all-powerful" God allow such things?

Thanks,
SeekerRuth

Offline Pierac

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 07:03:17 AM »
Concordant OT  Ecc 1:13    "It is an experience of evil Elohin [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."


NASB  Ecc 3:10  I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves. 11  He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity5769 in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

KJV  Ecc 3:10  I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. 11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

H5769        עלם     עולם     ‛ôlâm  o-lawm'

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind


Translation:   So God makes everything proper and appropriate for His Plan, but He has put obscurity in their
                    hearts.. so that, or in order that they cannot know or understand what it is that He is doing to
                    them in this human existence we call life.


Paul


arcticmonster2003

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 12:04:19 PM »
Quote
If God is love, then how do we explain terrible things like Rape, Murder, Torture, Violence, Abuse, etc.???  It would seem that he would protect us from these things, but even good people suffer...this is clear from bible stories and just looking around to every day life.  Why would a "loving", "all-powerful" God allow such things?

well, to me, it would seem we are in a place of punishment of God and seperation of God, a "hell" of sorts

julzabro2

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 02:43:17 PM »
I agree, arctic! We are being tested here. Being in the flesh means suffering but we are to...rise above the flesh.

Offline Taffy

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 03:51:20 PM »
Concordant OT  EC 1:13    IT is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."


NASB  EC 3:10  I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves. 11  He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity5769 in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

KJV  Ecc 3:10  I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. 11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

H5769        עלם     עולם     ‛ôlâm  o-lawm'

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind


Translation:   So God makes everything proper and appropriate for His Plan, but He has put obscurity in their
                    hearts.. so that, or in order that they cannot know or understand what it is that He is doing to
                    them in this human existence we call life.


Paul


Hi PAUL

I'm familiar with the work of L.Ray Smith...
as an alternative viewpoint....you may consider this...

For mine whats Concealed in the HEARTS OF MEN " is Christ ,As mystery I believe Paul refers to it as...
Its Only when CHRIST REMOVES THE VEIL ..WE SEE AND hear...

Also mentioned in scripture is the TRAVAIL of Child birth...from moving from Child to a SON

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Paul Nails it Here..As to A Jew he talked as a Jew , as One Still in Child birth...same thing for mine whats being discussed in the Scriptures in Eccl




Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


AS For THE Beginning and the END ..ITS MORE OF A WHO..THAN a time scale...
for mine heres why..Ive pasted and copied it from an earlier thread..



Jesus is the alpha and omega,( The Beginning and the END or in Hebrew, the Aleph and Tav.

Christ is the END of our faith..HE IS THE "END" another Worthy Title of our LORD...Aleph being the first letter represents the birth of all things.
Tav (whose symbolic meaning is the cross) is the last letter and represents the completion of all things. Together they represent all the other letter in-between and through which God expressed his truth.
The word 'truth' in Hebrew is emet. It is comprised of three letters: aleph " mem " tav. As such it represents the alpha and omega (aleph " tav). The letter mem signifies water and is shaped like the womb. meaning, truth must flow and also birth that which is above. The word heaven (H.8064 sha-mayim) is founded on the Hebrew word for water (H.4325 mayim). The letter shin represents fire. So together, heaven rains down fire and water. The two things we are baptised in.

which pretty much correlates to Pauls words here...

ROM 11-39For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen

Blessings
Taffy
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 06:33:11 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Seeker

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2007, 03:00:55 AM »
I also agree with arctic, it feels like we are living in a "hell" of sorts. 

I know some people have posted on other boards that they believe evil does not exist, but I have seen it with my own eyes. (I just wasn't ready to get into an arguement about it). 

I still struggle with how a "loving" God can allow such pain.  Some have written it is to humble us with....but if God is the author of our faith, why doesn't he just write humbleness in rather then create a world in which we must suffer? 

Otherwise, it would seem to me that he has given us all a free will to choose which path we will take, and he uses evil as one method to "push" us in His direction.

Just rambling out some thoughts here.  Would love to read more feedback on this topic.  Keep it flowing!!!

SeekerRuth

Offline Taffy

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Re: A reply to the answer on loved ones in hell
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 04:11:07 AM »
I also agree with arctic, it feels like we are living in a "hell" of sorts. 

I know some people have posted on other boards that they believe evil does not exist, but I have seen it with my own eyes. (I just wasn't ready to get into an arguement about it). 

I still struggle with how a "loving" God can allow such pain.  Some have written it is to humble us with....but if God is the author of our faith, why doesn't he just write humbleness in rather then create a world in which we must suffer? 

Otherwise, it would seem to me that he has given us all a free will to choose which path we will take, and he uses evil as one method to "push" us in His direction.

Just rambling out some thoughts here.  Would love to read more feedback on this topic.  Keep it flowing!!!

quote author=Seeker link=topic=164.msg2257#msg2257 date=1187827255]
I also agree with arctic, it feels like we are living in a "hell" of sorts. 

I know some people have posted on other boards that they believe evil does not exist, but I have seen it with my own eyes. (I just wasn't ready to get into an arguement about it). 

I still struggle with how a "loving" God can allow such pain.  Some have written it is to humble us with....but if God is the author of our faith, why doesn't he just write humbleness in rather then create a world in which we must suffer? 

Otherwise, it would seem to me that he has given us all a free will to choose which path we will take, and he uses evil as one method to "push" us in His direction.

Just rambling out some thoughts here.  Would love to read more feedback on this topic.  Keep it flowing!!!

SeekerRuth

Hi Ruth..

For mine it goes like this....

we would Know what light was  WITHOUT Darkness

or..Health WITH out SICKNESS

or life with out death...

For mine  we learn by comparison in all aspects of life

....Life is a learning Curve and God is in control...we are simply NOT...


Takes some getting used to...but for mine. we learn to roll with the BLOWS..TIS called Life

Maybe this hasmt been of any help...just my perspective Ruth
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.