Author Topic: A Big Fat Lie?  (Read 4360 times)

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Offline FineLinen

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A Big Fat Lie?
« on: August 26, 2007, 06:03:15 PM »
In the Southern Baptist Journal Of Theology, on pages 15 & 18, Timothy K. Beougher writes....


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How do we know that God is love? Through the person of Jesus Christ. No one knows more about God's love than Jesus Christ...... The One who embodied God's love spent more time talking about the horrors of hell than the glories of heaven. Hell is real, and hell is eternal. We have Jesus Christ word on that.


P. 18


Quote
Jesus Christ talked more about hell than he did about heaven.


Multiple Choice Test

A. Jesus Christ spoke much more about hell than heaven.

Yes_____________________________________________

No________________________________________________ _

B. Jesus Christ spoke somewhat more about hell than heaven.

Yes_______________________________________________ ____

No________________________________________________ ______

C. Jesus Christ spoke much more about heaven than hell.

Yes_______________________________________________ ____

No________________________________________________ ______

Bonus Question

The Apostle Paul, author of at least 13 Epistles, and recipient of an experience of Glory from heaven, wrote much more of hell than heaven.

Yes_______________________________________________ _______

No________________________________________________
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline 97531

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2007, 06:15:27 PM »
No
No
Yes
No
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Offline Taffy

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2007, 06:21:15 PM »

Why and where do people come to such conclusion FL..baffles me matey :eeew:

Blessings Bro
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

laren

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 06:26:59 PM »
Jesus teachings and message was a new way.  A narrow road, one that leads to life; and a wide road that leads to destruction.  Many called, few chosen. 

Without eyes to see that the road of destruction is also part of the plan for God to be all in all, and is a part of his nature, LOVE

then I can see how many see "hell/destruction/gehenna" as a large topic of Jesus message.

Offline FineLinen

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 06:33:00 PM »
No
No
Yes
No

Bingo! And how close to the truth do the publishers of such a statement come to the truth? Far far away, or remotely close?

A Big Fat Lie Repeated

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I am sorry if you cannot believe. Jesus spoke of hell more than He did heaven. -Pastor Lyndon-

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Ladies and gentlemen, Jesus Christ is the one who talked about hell. He probably talked about it more than anybody else in the entire Bible. -Rev. Pat Robertson


The Southern Baptist Journal Of Theology Responses To Universalism & Inclusivism. -Timothy K. Beougher-

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How do we know that God is love? Through the person of Jesus Christ. No one knows more about God's love than Jesus Christ. Do universalists dare presume they can teach Jesus Christ something about God's love? The One who embodied God's love spent more time talking about the horrors of hell than the glories of heaven. Hell is real, and hell is eternal. We have Jesus Christ word on that.


Quote
Jesus Christ talked more about hell than he did about heaven. -T. K. Beougher 

 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 06:38:02 PM by FineLinen »
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 06:44:14 PM »

Why and where do people come to such conclusion FL..baffles me matey :eeew:

Blessings Bro
Taffy

Matey: Evidently they are either recipients of insider knowledge or they follow different Hebrew and Greek Scriptures or both. :grin:

It is an interesting fact that gehenna is not mentioned by the author of over 13 epistles, St. Paul, who shrunk not from declaring the "whole counsel of God"? Why oh why did he not write of gehenna? 

Dr. Thayer significantly remarks

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The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelation, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or Hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning and believed it a part of Christ's teaching that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved? The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations never under any circumstances threaten them with the torments of Gehenna or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment and that this is part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world? These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna. All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or his disciples in the sense of endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word. 

Jesus Teaching On Hell

HERE
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 07:14:42 PM »
Jesus teachings and message was a new way.  A narrow road, one that leads to life; and a wide road that leads to destruction.  Many called, few chosen. 

Without eyes to see that the road of destruction is also part of the plan for God to be all in all, and is a part of his nature, LOVE

then I can see how many see "hell/destruction/gehenna" as a large topic of Jesus message.

Hi there Laren. The Father's plan does indeed include destruction as part of being made whole. In the Old Covenant there are at least 20 separate words for destruction with a number of them linking destruction with being brought to new life, change and transformation/ perfection. And the New? In the case of the individual turned over to Satan for the destruction/ olethros of the flesh, the final aspects of that olethros destruction ends in salvation.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2-3.html

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It is surely a significant fact, that the two words used in Hebrew to express "destruction", signify also, and are used to express, "perfection"; and the the word for a sacrifice by fire in Hebrew is the same as that for a bride or wife, "Kalal" (to complete, perfect, make complete, make perfect) e.g. Numbers 28:6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God's purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is "burning ones"; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7:9,10) they also are as fire; as it is written, "He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire" (Hebr.1:7 & Psl. 104:4)



« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 07:18:18 PM by FineLinen »
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline 97531

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 07:30:01 PM »
How do we know that God is love? Through the person of Jesus Christ.   :mthumbsup:

No one knows more about God's love than Jesus Christ.  :mthumbsup:

Do universalists dare presume they can teach Jesus Christ something about God's love?  :nod: :Yesss:

The One who embodied God's love spent more time talking about the horrors of hell than the glories of heaven.   :pointlaugh: :JCThink: :fool:  :Yeahright: :offtopic:

Hell is real, and hell is eternal. We have Jesus Christ word on that.  :footmouth: :faint: :wacko2: :Violinhit:


Hoo boy could have stopped at the 2nd sentence, then he would not contradict himself
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Offline FineLinen

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 04:56:00 PM »
How do we know that God is love? Through the person of Jesus Christ.   :mthumbsup:

No one knows more about God's love than Jesus Christ.  :mthumbsup:

Hoo boy could have stopped at the 2nd sentence, then he would not contradict himself


Dr. Beougher should indeed have stopped when he was confessing truth. Love is not an aspect of our God, nor a characteristic of our God, Love is God, His very essence, just as light, fire, and Spirit are His essence. The Lord Jesus Christ came to seek and to save that which is lost/ destroyed. I dare declare that His mission that is encapsulated in good tidings of great joy shall be consummated in all aspects of completeness.

 Our Father has declared He will consummate all things into Christ Jesus the Lord. Every knee bows, every tongue confesses not "at" the sound of Jesus Name; all beings in all dimensions of the creation worship and confess "IN/EN" the Name of Jesus, and to the Father's great glory, in celebration and unrestrained thankfulness declaring You are Lord! Such worship is not by rote or perfunctory genuflections but in exomologeo and homologeo.

Welcome to Tentmaker Dr. Tim
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2007, 05:16:13 PM »
Quote
No one knows more about God's love than Jesus Christ. 

Do universalists dare presume they can teach Jesus Christ something about God's love? 

Dr. Tim: There is no believer in the Restitution of all things who would presume to teach the Master of the Universe anything! The Monogenes Son who is within the bosom of the Father has declared Him. Do you think that the feeding of thousands, and the basketfuls of remnants that remained are more important than the beings for which He has freely laid down His life? I don't. Now Doc. think hard and long on this. The Master declares to His disciples "gather up the fragments that remain that nothing be lost." Is it not an interesting thought that the Master gathers up fragments of fish and bread that nothing be lost, but the lost sons of Adam 1 are not gathered up into the Love of God? Common Doc!
 
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The One who embodied God's love spent more time talking about the horrors of hell than the glories of heaven.
 

Prove it Doc. You are not only fabricating, you are not remotely close. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke nearly 10 times more regarding heaven to every reference to hell whether it was hades, or gehenna.
 
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Hell is real, and hell is eternal. We have Jesus Christ word on that.

Hell is indeed real, but hardly eternal. Only the Eternal One is eternal. But assuming that your premise "hell is eternal" is correct, could you please show us how this "eternal" hell is consummated in the Lake of Theos/Pur and still remains eternal?  And why Dr. Tim did the Lord Jesus Christ enter hell and declare zao life to the "disobedient" from the days of Noah and the great flood? 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 05:17:52 PM by FineLinen »
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

shibboleth

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2007, 05:43:33 PM »
Hi Fine Linen.....sure did enjoy all your hard work and studies on GFT. Good to see you are back and I really do look forward to reading all your good exegesis of Biblical words and passages. :cloud9:

Offline fire walker

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2007, 10:15:27 AM »
Tell um this, that the profits of religion and money changing can't be spent in heaven so these that so profit shall view heaven as hell? It appears they have the spirit of the Pharisee, a taskmaster who can never be satisfied, we need to paint the church, we need stained glass windows, we need to landscape the grounds, we need new pews and room for more pews, we need to do more than we are doing for the church, and we need to do this, we need to that and we need to thus according to that church, samed old yada, yada, yada the sound of tinkling brass and clanging symbols, and that is the BIG FAT LIE, listening to it over and over again in vain repetition is hell enough without going anyplace else called hell, when we are moved to speak out then the leaders get upset because we rock the boat and are considered out of order, out of place, a trouble maker or ignored. To me I have found more love among those outside formal organized church than I ever found in it,  the big Fat lie is what those moved in spirit are coming out from.

Also one need not go to church to hear the big fat lie, it is also promoted by politics and has found its way into both many churches and secular organizations. Even on the street corners we occasionly run into someone or group of people preaching eternal death by condemnation or Eternal hellfire damnation awaiting all who sin, such a lie.

The good news is we are the bride of Christ not the church, the bride doesn't mary the bride.

Peace,
Fire Walker
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 08:58:50 PM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

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Offline dboutwell

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 04:42:26 AM »
Good to see you posting, Fine Linen.  :bigGrin:

Debbie

http://scaredofhell.com/
Blessings :)

Debbie

Offline FineLinen

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 04:42:22 PM »
Good to see you posting, Fine Linen.  :bigGrin:

Debbie

http://scaredofhell.com/

Hi there Debbie. Good to see your smiling face again. :happygrin:

Search= N. T. Hell

Number of times the Apostle Paul speaks of hell?

Thirteen Epistles: References to hell= 0

Number of times the Apostle Luke mentions hell?

Twice in Acts (both in reference to Jesus Christ not being left in hell)

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Because You will not leave my soul in hell/hades, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to suffer corruption. Acts 2:27


Note: Hell/hades and corruption are linked.

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...He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that He had not been abondoned to the place of death (hades), neither did His flesh undergo decay.
 

Note:

Hades, the place of death, & decay of the flesh/body are linked together.

Number of times the Apostle James speaks of hell?

One (1) -in reference to the tongue.-

Number of times the Apostle John on Patmos speaks of hell?

Four (4)

Number of times St. John speaks of hell within his gospel?=

Zero

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I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


The final chapter on Hell=

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And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Theos/Pur (the Limne of Theos). This IS the second death. 
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 06:16:29 PM »
Dr. Beougher: And shall God do that which He abhors? We read in the law regarding bondmen, and strangers, and debtors and widows and orphans, and in that same law regarding the punishment of the wicked, which shall not exceed forty stripes lest your brother should seem vile unto you. Shall God do that which He abhors?

Andrew Jukes:

Hear the prophets exhorting to 'break every yoke, 'to let the oppressed go free', and to 'undo the heavy burdens:' (Isa. 58: 6.)--hear the still clearer witness of the gospel, 'not to let the sun go down upon our wrath,' (Eph. 4: 26.) to 'forgive not until seven times, but until seventy times seven,' (S. Matt. 18: 22.) 'not to be overcome of evil, but to overcome evil with good:' (Rom. 12:21.) to 'walk in love as Christ has loved us,' and to 'be imitators of God as dear children:' (Eph. 5: 1,2.)--see the judgment of those who neglect the poor, and the naked, and the hungry, and the stranger, and the prisoner; (S. Matt. 25:. 41-43)--and then say,

Shall God do that which He abhors?

Shall He command that bondmen and debtors be freed, and yet Himself keep those who are in worse bondage and under a greater debt in endless imprisonment? Shall He bid us care for widows and orphans, and Himself forget this widowed nature, which has lost its Head and Lord, and those poor orphan souls which cannot cry, Abba, Father? Shall He limit punishment to forty strips, 'lest thy brother seem vile,' and Himself inflict more upon those who though fallen still are His children? Is not Christ the faithful Israelite, who fulfills the law; and shall He break it in any one of these particulars? Shall He say, 'Forgive till seventy times seven,' and Himself not forgive except in this short life? Shall He command us to 'overcome evil with good,' and Himself, the Almighty, be overcome of evil? Shall He judge those who leave the captives unvisited, and Himself leave captives in a worse prison for ever unvisited? Does He not again and again appeal to our own natural feelings of mercy, as witnessing 'how much more' we may expect a larger mercy from our 'Father which is in heaven'? (St. Matt. 7: 6-11.) If it were otherwise, might not the adversary reproach, and say, Thou that teachest and judgest another, teachest Thou not thyself? Not thus will God be justified. But, blessed be His Name, He shall in all be justified. And when in His day He opens 'the treasures of the hail,' and shews what sweet waters He can bring out of hard hailstones; when He unlocks "the place where light now dwells" shut up, and reveals what light is hid in darkness and hardness, as we see in coal and flint, those silent witnesses of the dark hard hearts, which God can turn to floods of light; when we have "taken darkness to the bound thereof," (Job. 38: 19, 20.) and have seen not only how "the earth is full of God's riches," but how He has laid up the depths in storehouses; (Psa. 106:24; and 33: 7.) in that day when "the mystery of God is finished," and He has destroyed them which corrupt the earth," (Rev. 11:18)--then shall it be seen how truly God's judgments are love, and that 'in very faithfulness He hath afflicted us.' (Psa. 119:75)  
 


 
 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 06:18:04 PM by FineLinen »
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

wilmont

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2007, 09:48:52 PM »
They are confused because they are still caught up in their own guilt.  The easiest way to get rid of this is to convice the world that their guilt is the same.
There are some benefits to this in that it can make people "legally binding" to the system they believe in (and less likely to live according to their animal souls hopefully), but the downside is they never really grow into the Kingdom like they should.


Offline fire walker

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Re: A Big Fat Lie?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2007, 03:55:19 AM »
FineLinen,

I am so thankful that you were moved to deliver and post that article of "Jesus teaching on hell" because it pointed out what I have been aware of since I was not raised in a church going family, and only went to various churches by invitation , or for weddings and memorial services for someone who had past on. That even outside formally organized church institutions we receive these lies about hell through secular organizations, street preachers, schools and politicians, maybe not as directly as is hammered in by various sermons in the organized churches but none the less the false message of hell is clear, the reward or punishment, the switch and bait, the carrot or the stick mind set, these leadings are promoted by leaders who teach these lies even unknowing that they are lies promote fear and not love.

Peace,
Fire Walker
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 03:58:11 AM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19