Author Topic: 4 Point Calvinism  (Read 1344 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Yab Yum

  • Guest
4 Point Calvinism
« on: March 18, 2010, 09:32:55 PM »
Hi all.

 :reachout:

What is the difference between 4 Point Calvinism and universalism?

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12951
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 09:56:55 PM »
Darkness and Light  :laughing7:

Maybe this and this answers some of your questions....

In short:
Calvinism:
Before creation God made a short list of people that will enter heaven.
Those people are called the elect. Estimated 1-5% of all people ever born.
All other will enter hell with real fire. Estimated 95-99% of all people ever born.
God decided that and there is absolutely nothing man can do to change that.

UR:
100% enters heaven. God decided that before creation.
"Each is saved in his own order."
Personally I call the group that's saved first the elect. That's my opinion and I don't know that the general UR opinion.
There is no fire to torture. But God does correct/punish sinners. But in way that's more father like.
When a normal human father punish his kid it's done to make it repent and learn. It may hurt but it's not torture with boiling oil and whips. (like hell)
I think there is no agreement if that correction happens in this life, in the after life, or both.

That's my  :2c: I'm sure others will add to this thread. (and debunk me) :icon_jokercolor:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Yab Yum

  • Guest
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010, 10:11:31 PM »
Thank you WW.

If we take the L out of the TULIP, we have Calvinism without "limited atonement". This is "4-point Calvinism".

So ... is it possible to be UR and retain the TUIP?

 :msealed:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12951
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 10:30:31 PM »
Hi again YY,

I never heared of 4-point TULIP.
Unless you are Dutch, then it's tulp  :happy3:
So I simply assumed you accidently typed 4 instead of 5. Sorry  :winkgrin:

Taking the L out indeed makes it much better for me.
The vast majority on this forum agree on UR. But as you likely already have noticed there isn't complete agreement on how exactly God is gonna carry out His UR plan. So not all will agree with the 4 letters.
If I look hard I surely will find something to be negative about. That said yep, 4-point seems fine with me.

IMO UR is a mix of the best points of Calvinism and Arminianism.

The love and will to save all creation of Arminianism.
And the power to carry out that will of Calvinism.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Universalist Catholic

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 405
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 06:25:43 AM »
Basically Calvinism is the idea that a parent likes one of their children better than the other, so they throw them in a busy intersection.  CALL CHILD SERVICES.
Arminianism is like a dad who is outfront, and their three year old starts running out in the street, and daddy just sits around and begs the child to not run in the streets, because its dangerous.  The little kid does not understand that its dangerous.  The kid runs in the street and gets killed.  I tried so hard, but his will was too strong for me. 
CALL CHILD SERVICES
Universalism is similar to a dad who sees his three year old running out in the street, and he grabs his child before he can get in the street.  THATS WHAT A LOVING PARENT DOES.

A Three year old does not understand the consequences of running on a busy street, and its the fathers job to keep the child from running in the street. 

On another hand, theres a teenage girl going out with some boy who just wants sex from them.  Dad can see that this boy doesnt care about his little girl.  The best thing to do is let the girl date this boy.  So, the girl refuses sex with him, and he dumps her.  The girl comes home crying.  But in due time, she gets over it and moves on. 


Yab Yum

  • Guest
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 11:31:08 PM »
Basically Calvinism is the idea that a parent likes one of their children better than the other, so they throw them in a busy intersection.  CALL CHILD SERVICES.
Arminianism is like a dad who is outfront, and their three year old starts running out in the street, and daddy just sits around and begs the child to not run in the streets, because its dangerous.  The little kid does not understand that its dangerous.  The kid runs in the street and gets killed.  I tried so hard, but his will was too strong for me. 
CALL CHILD SERVICES
Universalism is similar to a dad who sees his three year old running out in the street, and he grabs his child before he can get in the street.  THATS WHAT A LOVING PARENT DOES.

Close but no cigar.

In Calvinism and Arminianism there are two three year olds who choose of their own free will to run out into the street. God doesn't throw them anywhere.

In Calvinism God chooses to reach out into the street and save one of the two three year olds. Call Child protective services.

In Arminianism god keeps calling the three year olds as they weave in and out of traffic getting slammed around until they finally figure out how to get back to daddy. Call child protective services.

Your version of UR seems unrealistic given the reality of Auschwitz, Tay Sachs disease, etc. Saying we're not out in the street is blissninny talk.

Offline Universalist Catholic

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 405
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2010, 11:42:16 PM »
This was just in theory

Mr.Irrelevant

  • Guest
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 12:07:58 AM »
Thank you WW.

If we take the L out of the TULIP, we have Calvinism without "limited atonement". This is "4-point Calvinism".

So ... is it possible to be UR and retain the TUIP?

 :msealed:


Very much so.  I consider myself to be a four point Calvinist.

T= Total Depravity - All men are born in sin and behave in sin.  We are by nature unholy and do not deserve a relationship with The Holy God.  There is nothing we can do about it.

U= Unmerited favor - Because God is love He has chosen before the foundation of the world to act in history and accomplish what we cannot - the restoration of the relationship we were created to enjoy.  This is God's action, we can not earn and do not deserve it.

I = Irresistable Grace - Because this is God's action, those who he choses to save must be drawn to Him.  Because He is soveriegn He will see to it that He draws whomever He desires.  Because we have skipped the limited atonement part - God can draw everybody if that's what He wants to do.  And the very good news is that's just what He says he's going to do!

P = Perseverence of the Saints - Once God has drawn an individual to Himself, that person has the righteousness of Christ applied to his account, is sealed by the Holy Spirit, and is no longer under any condemnation.  They are a part of the family of God and will never again be seperated from Him.

So as you can see, none of those points precludes a belief in the ultimate reconciliaton of everyone of all time.  The problem comes in with the teaching that all salvation has to be on THIS side of the grave, a teaching that never appears in the Bible.  Since obviously not everyone comes to a saving knowledge of Christ before death, the Calvinists are forced to add the "L" - that Christ didn't die for everyone and that God isn't going to draw everyone to Himself and therefore He doesn't love everyone etc.....

pickr

  • Guest
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2010, 12:34:36 AM »
Excellent synopsis, Mr. Irrelevant.

I think where the traditional TULIP theology falls flat is in its illogical conclusion that the election Paul speaks about necessitates a limited atonement on the part of Jesus, as opposed to that election being an essential element in God's overarching purpose to reconcile everyone and everything (which is exactly what Paul very clearly states in Eph 1).

Anyway, I guess I'm a 4-point Calvinist, too. :)

Love,

Andy

Offline Pierac

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1377
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2010, 05:07:18 AM »
Hi all.

 :reachout:

What is the difference between 4 Point Calvinism and universalism?

Calvinist do not understand Jesus' reign ends!

1Co 15:25  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Yep, keep reading...

1Co 15:26  The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

You starting to understand yet?

Paul


Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12951
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 4 Point Calvinism
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2010, 07:39:58 AM »
Quote
Calvinist do not understand Jesus' reign ends!
Depends a bit on how you define it I think. His rulership might be a bit harsh for a unsubjected person. But I think it's pure hapiness for the subjected person. That won't be so bad as an eternal state I think.
So it really depends on how Calvinists see His rulership and if they accept Jesus will submit all.
My guess is they see lots of tortured everywhere. For me a ending or non ending kingdom of the Son is a minor difference compared to that.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...