Author Topic: 1 Timothy 4:10 Does this teach Jesus is The Savior of everyone who has lived?  (Read 7709 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Hey Everyone,

1 Timothy 4:10

The idea that " God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course  is contrary to all sound doctrine.

I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people ( showing mercy to all each and every day they live) , especially of those who believe ( who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life)..

Look forward to your responses. God bless.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 09:15:01 PM by ChosenofGod37 »

aspiring son

  • Guest
Hey Everyone,

1 Timothy 4:10

The idea that " God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course  is contrary to all sound doctrine.

I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people ( showing mercy to all each and every day they live) , especially of those who believe ( who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life)..

Look forward to your responses. God bless.


Your ad libs to that scripture do not help. I take it your an annihilationist. If it said showing mercy to all each and every day they live, it would have said that. But a savior is just that- a savior. He cannot be the savior of the world if he does not save the world.In the Ot the sacrifice pleasing to God was the fat and insides of the beast, while the flesh was burned outside the camp. All flesh, must be cast out and burned (in the lake of fire) while God takes what is inside and places it on His altar.

As much as you may believe so, (and I know not whether you do or not, though your screename says otherwise) you did not choose God, God chooses us through his sovereignty and faith. That is why it is a gift (Eph 2 8). The carnal mind as Cp said cannot receive it. Jesus spoke in parables KNOWING they could not understand at that time (Mark 11-12). God hardened Pharoah's heart. We all at some point produced evil in this world. But in sovereignty and rank he is slowly but surely redeeming all things, and it is his good pleasure.

"This is comely and acceptable before our God,
Who willeth all men to be saved, and unto a personla knowledge of the truth to come;For there is one God, One mediator also between God and men- A man Jesus Christ"  1 tim 2 10

" Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from olden time that which had never been done,- Saying My PURPOSE SHALL STAND, AND ALL MY PLEASURE I WILL PERFORM"
Isaiah 46 10


Grace and peace.

Brandon

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Hey Brandon,

No, I'm not annihilationist.. All people enjoy God's salvation in some way like those who BELIEVE enjoy His salvation. God is the Savior of all people in a temporal sense, while believers in an eternal sense. All people experience earthly benefits from the goodness of God.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 09:55:42 PM by ChosenofGod37 »

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Hey Everyone,

1 Timothy 4:10

The idea that " God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course  is contrary to all sound doctrine.

I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people ( showing mercy to all each and every day they live) , especially of those who believe ( who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life)..

Look forward to your responses. God bless.


The natural mindset cannot receive the things of Godů.

But the  natural  man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.1cor2.14

Sound doctrine, to the natural mind, rejects such a clear statement from God Himself while a mind more attuned to the Spirit might just see the sense of it (minus your additions of course).

By the way, Chosen, who's 'sound doctrine' are you talking about anyway?

I hope I get 'full salvation' and not just a partial dose. Can you tell me what a partial dose of salvation will get me?

Do you believe God's mercy endures forever and His wrath endures but a moment? What about for the myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus? Wouldn't you have to deny what the Good Book says again and say that, concerning them anyway, that His wrath endures forever and His mercy lasts but a moment?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Cp,

All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Cp,

All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.

I would be careful calling God's grace common. It is anything but common. It is amazing and beyond certain minds to even comprehend.

I'm just giving you a hard time, Chosen. I know what you mean. God's grace does reach out to all people all the time. I feel for those who still are in darkness concerning the great salvation that has been attained for them but their day is coming as our day came for us!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Cp,

There day is coming ONLY if they are drawn by the Father by His sovereign grace and granted the repentance and faith to BELIEVE IN JESUS to be saved.( Eph 1:3-5; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

You must repent and believe in Jesus to receive salvation in this lifetime. (Hebrews 9:27)

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Chosen, you have neglected to respond to some of my questions. I do not ask any questions lightly. I am trying to respond to all of yours.

Here is one I would like you to respond to.............

Do you believe God's mercy endures forever and His wrath endures but a moment? What about for the myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus? Wouldn't you have to deny what the Good Book says again and say that, concerning them anyway, that His wrath endures forever and His mercy lasts but a moment?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Cp,

Yes, God's mercy endures forever. God is infinite so is His Wrath.



The myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus is God's sovereign choice.

No, because you believe God owes wicked, unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him and hate Him mercy. Read  Romans 9:14-25. God owes the rebellious sinner nothing. Yet God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( Romans 5:8)

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Cp,

There day is coming ONLY if they are drawn by the Father by His sovereign grace and granted the repentance and faith to BELIEVE IN JESUS to be saved.( Eph 1:3-5; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

You must repent and believe in Jesus to receive salvation in this lifetime. (Hebrews 9:27)

And I , if I be  lifted  up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  jn12.32

Oh, you are so right, Chosen. Only those drawn, literally dragged, to Jesus will be saved and the Good Book tells us clearly and plainly who are to be drawn. Doesn't that make you just jump for joy or are you upset thinking no one may burn because of God's eternal anger?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:heb9.27

Wow, a friend of mine and me are discussing this exact verse right now. How timely of you to quote it.

It does not say 'It is appointed man once to die and then it's either eternal heaven or hell' does it? It says 'It is appointed man once to die and then JUDGMENT'.

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy  judgments  [are] in the earth,  the inhabitants of the world will  learn  righteousness. is26.9

Chosen, do you see what judgment is all about? Judgment is a good and terrible thing, but a perfect and good thing for all people. Harsh, yes, but very good!

Judgment is called a day of salvation. A day is as a thousand years with God. There is much more to judgment than most realize, Chosen.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Cp,

No one is dragged to salvation. That is a distorted view of sovereign election.

Hebrews 9:27 Judgment is just that. No second chances. When you die you are going to be judged rather or not you stand in the righteousness of Jesus or your own filthy rags self-righteousness. Depending on which righteousness you stand in is where you will be ( Hades or Heaven) until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Cp,

Yes, God's mercy endures forever. God is infinite so is His Wrath.



The myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus is God's sovereign choice.

No, because you believe God owes wicked, unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him and hate Him mercy. Read  Romans 9:14-25. God owes the rebellious sinner nothing. Yet God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( Romans 5:8)

But Chosen, the Bible says His wrath endures but a moment. How can you say it is infinite? How can you so flatly deny your Fathers very own words? This amazes me and causes me some concern for you but who am I to talk!

God owes us and me nothing. He bestows grace upon all. Grace, Chosen, not just for those who think they deserve it like you, but for all and I think His grace is sufficient for all. Paul was the chief of sinners and it was good enough for him. Do you know a sinner greater than Paul. And remember Paul did not initially ask to be saved did he?

And Chosen, don't ever put words into my mouth or don't ever think you can speak for me! That is wrong. I did not ever say God owes unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him, mercy. I never said that. You are playing the evil one here and rearranging words to hurt and confuse.

Only those who seek God will find Him. How anyone becomes a seeker of God is the work of the One who works in us to do of His good pleasure.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his]  good   pleasure. phil2.13

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Cp,

No one is dragged to salvation. That is a distorted view of sovereign election.

Hebrews 9:27 Judgment is just that. No second chances. When you die you are going to be judged rather or not you stand in the righteousness of Jesus or your own filthy rags self-righteousness. Depending on which righteousness you stand in is where you will be ( Hades or Heaven) until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

Look up the greek word for drawn. It is literally dragged. Looks like you're on your own from here on out my friend unless others step in. I think I've written way enough for you to see where I am coming from and I have backed up all my thoughts with Scripture and reasonings.

Go ahead thinking your thoughts but please keep asking, seeking and knocking on the door of the One who knows all!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Cp,

By your comments about the myriads of people who don't hear of Jesus sounds like God is obligated to  give mercy to these sinners who rebel against Him and blaspheme His name.

Read Romans 3 : 10-19. no one seeks after God or does good. Therefore, the only ones seeking after God are the ones who are being drawn to Him sovereignly.( John 6:44)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 11:32:03 PM by ChosenofGod37 »

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Cp,

No one is dragged against their will to salvation. :thumbsup: :winkgrin:

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Chosen, so what do you believe? I read earlier that you do not believe in annihilationism.

Do you believe that ALL human beings will eventually be reconciled to God?
or
Do you believe only SOME will, and the rest will be... what?
I find it hard to follow someone's posts if I don't know their core beliefs.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 11:41:41 PM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Sparrow,

No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

 God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3). And that comes by sovereign election( John 6:44 ; Eph 1:3-5 )
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 11:38:43 PM by ChosenofGod37 »

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
You answered my question, but not entirely.
To the bolded in my post above... the rest will be...what?
What happens to those whom God does not "choose"
After their earthly death, what happens to them, in your eyes?
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Quote
1 Timothy 4:10 Does this teach Jesus is The Savior of everyone who has lived?


1 Corinthians 15:22 does say so in my opinion, 1 Timothy 4:10 and Romans 5:18 e.g. support this view; one should not build a doctrine on a single verse, therein I agree.

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
According to the word of God the unrighteous are judged and punished. (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Thess 1:7-9 ; Rev 20:11-15; Rev 21:8). They go to Hades temporarily until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Sven,

1 Cor 15:22 "For just as in Adam all die, in the same way also in Christ all will be given life."
 
This Scripture teaches that all "in Adam" (non-believers) die, all "in Christ" ( believers) are made alive ( born again)

Another words, all who die in their sins die "in Adam" all who believe "in Christ" are given life.. You don't want to die in Adam.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
willieH: Hi CoG37...  :cloud9:

 :welcome:  Welcome dear  :newb:

A few comments:

No, I'm not annihilationist.. All people enjoy God's salvation in some way like those who BELIEVE enjoy His salvation.


How does one BELIEVE CoG37?  Is not FAITH "given out by measure"? -- Rom 12:3 -- And,

Is it not AUTHORED by CHRIST? -- Heb 12:2 -- And,

Is NOT GOD impartial to ALL? -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Gal 2:6 -- Prov 28:21 -- And

Is REPENTENCE, not realized by the DRAWING of GOD?  -- John 6:44 & 65 -- and the GOODNESS of GOD's LEADING -- Rom 3:4

So all this taken into consideration, ...How does this possibly rest upon OUR individual shoulders?  :dontknow:

God is the Savior of all people in a temporal sense, while believers in an eternal sense. All people experience earthly benefits from the goodness of God.

Nice job of ADDING and SUBTRACTING from what the WORD actually SAYS:

1 Tim 4:10  for therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ...especially... those that BELIEVE

There is NO MENTION of anything "TEMPORAL" or "ETERNAL" in this verse... except BY YOU!

Also, this verse does NOT MENTION, nor is it at all concerned with "EARTHLY BENEFITS", CoG37... :mnah:

Just the simple notation that GOD ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN... So "SALVATION" is an "IS" type of thing...  :dontknow: as well as an "ALL MEN" type of thing!  :boogie:

And those who "BELIEVE", are "special" in some way...  In "what way"?  You might ask:

Those who "BELIEVE" amidst the time of evil in which we are presently a part, ...are chosen to believe, by GOD... NOT OF THEMSELVES -- Eph 2:8-9 -- For if it (Salvation) were due to something THEY decided, then of their "doing/decision" --  and ESTABLISHED, verified, and thereby instituted, and finalized BY that "decision",  ...they could therefore BOAST about it - could they not?   :Whistle:

Well the SORROWFUL fact IS,  ...that MOST of those who "BELIEVE" do that VERY THING [Boast of it]!   :sigh:

And BECAUSE they take "credit" for "DECIDING" their own "Salvation" -- they shall suffer the following address FROM the Savior:  Matt 7:22-23 ---

In the following verse in Eph 2 -- we find that GOD had ORDAINED that those "believers" would so walk in the footsteps of "belief" at HIS "BEFORE ORDAINED" decision that they would so walk -- Eph 2:10

The "FAITH" that enables "believers" to "believe" is FOREORDAINED, AUTHORED and GIVEN by GOD... as I have noted above.

:Peace: -- :newb: -- and again --  :welcome:

...willieH   :icon_king:

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
According to the word of God the unrighteous are judged and punished. (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Thess 1:7-9 ; Rev 20:11-15; Rev 21:8). They go to Hades temporarily until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

What typical (blinded) ORTHODOX vision is this...  :sigh: 

No offense, but are you posting directly from your "church's" doctrinal statement, CoG37:dunno:

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
willieH: Hi cp! :hithere:

I would be careful calling God's grace common. It is anything but common. It is amazing and beyond certain minds to even comprehend.

cp

 :goodpost:   :iagree: ...and "amen" bro!

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline ChosenofGod37

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 175
Hey Willie,

Thanks for your entertaining post and warm welcome. No, I don't quote from any church beliefs. Just use sound biblical doctrine. All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.


No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

 God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3). And that comes by sovereign election( John 6:44 ; Eph 1:3-5; Phil 1:29)  :winkgrin: :thumbsup: