1 John. Are you a true Christian?

[Gilbert]

In Christ BY Faith????
Whose Faith...

Your own or someone else's faith.

"Maybe" it is a Church/Baptist faith you have learned this from/ N.I.V.

Jesus' Faith or Yours -- Who's  ?
K.J.V.                Rom. 3:22
   Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith of Jesus Christ…

This is very true.
This idea about the faith OF God (as opposed to faith IN God) became settled in my heart and mind several years ago and has considerably helped me since.

I will tell you a true story:
I was raised in a severely abusive home. As such, I never obtained for myself a proper image of an earthly parent. So, later when I married and our own son arrived, the only thing that I was most certain about was that I wouldn't do the things which my own parents had done. Other than that, I had no clue how a father should properly behave and act.
So, I asked the Lord to be sure and teach me how to be a proper parent; after all, He is the father of all the living and so would surely know something about parenting skills.
It was easy not to physically harm my son. I could come against that temptation in an instant.
However, it was my mental and emotional posture towards him which was the most difficult thing to deal with and change.
For example: one day, after many failures of my son's promises not to wet his pants anymore, I took him by the hand and emptied the laundry basket before him and showed him all his failed promises. I actually took each piece of soiled clothing out of the laundry basket and threw it down before him on the floor.
He stood there utterly crushed.
I was so proud of myself about the valuable lesson I was teaching my son.
I left him my son standing there staring at his soiled laundry and I returned to sit on the couch.
I don't know how to describe it, but it was as I was hearing an audible thought saying: "Is that how your heavenly Father treats you when you do wrong?".
The words pierced my heart to the very core.
And, then another thought came to me saying: "You should have told him that he did not have to continue wetting his pants. That he could be strong and that you would be there to help him through it".
The realization of what I had done brought me near to tears.
Then I heard, "My son, you have to have the same faith about your child that I have over my own children. Go back and hug him and tell him of your faith in him and of your faith in his desire to do good".
The change which happened with my son was incredible. It was as if a huge burden had been lifted from his shoulders. He no longer had to hide or feel ashamed for his wetting issues.

That's how I first learned about the faith of God.

[Molly]

wow.  Powerful story, Gilbert.



 9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

 10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

 12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

--Luke 11

[Beloved Servant]

John 10 Amplified:

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.

An "audible thought."
Thanks Gilbert. I never knew quite how to put it into words.

[Cardinal]

  Amen, good post Gilbert. Blessings...

[Seth]

Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

In that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior? Do not commit murder? Do not steal? Those laws are only for those who would do those things and need to be told not to do them. But if everyone is matured in love, they need no such laws.

The law is established BY those who do not need law TO those who do need it, that is why God reveals his glory in his saints to the world.

 

[WhiteWings]

Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

Then we would have  a fight who's most holy...

In that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior? Do not commit murder? Do not steal? Those laws are only for those who would do those things and need to be told not to do them. But if everyone is matured in love, they need no such laws.

The law is established BY those who do not need law TO those who do need it, that is why God reveals his glory in his saints to the world.

It's some sort of paradox imo.
God can't be loving, good, smart, just, etc without a reference point of some sort.
If I ask you to name a few things that shows you that God is loving.
You would possibly answer He want to save all His kids.
If I ask you an example on why He is just.
You would possibly answer becauce He chastens exactly enough.
But with your answers you set rules/laws/verification points.
Surely you are powerless to to stop God breaking those rules but still it are rules.
God also vowed several things. IMO that means He now lives under His own law.
So even those who don't need a law need a law to show they don't need a law 

[Seth]

Then we would have  a fight who's most holy...

??

WW, the hypothetical is that everyone is JUST like Jesus. Would Jesus do that? The point is to show who the law is for and why God created the law and why it is not for the righteous.

If there were 6 billion completely selfless people matured in love (as hard as that is to imagine), you wouldn't need 10 commandments because they were meant to reveal sin to the sinner. Can you imagine telling Jesus "do not sin?" You don't need to tell him that. Jesus didn't need laws to tell him not to do something that was already in his nature not to do.

God can't be loving, good, smart, just, etc without a reference point of some sort.

Sure He can, we just need the reference point to understand it because we are imperfect. God's nature does not depend on a reference point. It has never changed.

If I ask you to name a few things that shows you that God is loving.
You would possibly answer He want to save all His kids.
If I ask you an example on why He is just.
You would possibly answer becauce He chastens exactly enough.
But with your answers you set rules/laws/verification points.

See above. Those reference points are only for the ungodly to understand God.

God also vowed several things. IMO that means He now lives under His own law.
So even those who don't need a law need a law to show they don't need a law 

As I had said in another post, New Jerusalem is not lawless. It is called the law of liberty from sin, where the law of Moses did not set us free form sin. The law is not not according to the letter, but the living Spirit.

That is why I referenced "Do not commit murder." That law is for murderers. God is not under that law because he is not a murderer. Now being set free from sin, and therefore the law that reveals sin, we are under the law of liberty from sin in Christ. The letter never brought liberty, because it was only a shadow and not the very thing.

[sparrow]

Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

In that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior?

LOVE this.
This is what it's about.

Amen and AMEN!

[Seth]

Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

In that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior?

LOVE this.
This is what it's about.

Amen and AMEN!

 

Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

[WhiteWings]

Then we would have  a fight who's most holy...

??

WW, the hypothetical is that everyone is JUST like Jesus. Would Jesus do that? The point is to show who the law is for and why God created the law and why it is not for the righteous.

A failed joke. Plz ignore.

If I ask you to name a few things that shows you that God is loving.
You would possibly answer He want to save all His kids.
If I ask you an example on why He is just.
You would possibly answer becauce He chastens exactly enough.
But with your answers you set rules/laws/verification points.

See above. Those reference points are only for the ungodly to understand God.

I don't agree with that.
Without reference points God is God.
With reference points God is love, just, etc
That doesn't mean God is different with reference points; it just means that without reference points you can't label God as loving.
Example. Suppose you are the only person in America. Then you can claim you are the smartest. But because you are alone you are also the most stupid American at the same time. That's becaue there is no reference point.

[Seth]

A failed joke. Plz ignore.

Ah. Sorry. Sometimes it's hard to see that because jokes depend so much on delivery, which is hard to get in writing sometimes. 

I don't agree with that.
Without reference points God is God.
With reference points God is love, just, etc
That doesn't mean God is different with reference points; it just means that without reference points you can't label God as loving.
Example. Suppose you are the only person in America. Then you can claim you are the smartest. But because you are alone you are also the most stupid American at the same time. That's becaue there is no reference point.

Please note the bolded blue. Without reference points YOU cannot label God as loving, but that doesn't mean he isn't loving. God does not change. Which is why I agree when you say: "That doesn't mean God is different with reference points" Exactly my point. The reference does not ESTABLISH God's nature, it just helps US humans understand it better.

This isn't about whether or not God is the MOST loving as compared to other things, but about whether He is loving at all regardless of those things. In other words, God can be loving before we have a reference point by which WE humans are able to recognize that.

[WhiteWings]

Agreed.
But aren't we just humans talking about God?
Doesn't that mean we talk/reason like humans? Even if we want to reason like God we simply can't or at the very least don't know if we reason like got.

[Seth]

Agreed.
But aren't we just humans talking about God?
Doesn't that mean we talk/reason like humans? Even if we want to reason like God we simply can't or at the very least don't know if we reason like got.

Yes we are humans talking about God, but to go back to the main issue, the Mosaic laws gave slaves to sin a reference point of God's holiness, in order to reveal sin to the sinner. HOWEVER, when the actual GOD is within man controlling man's nature and killing the body of death, the reference point is unnecessary as a means to follow it. God does not need a reference point. He doesn't need jots and tittles to tell Himself who He is....and He is in us, right?

The referrence point of the law is only for those who are slaves to sin. The living Spirit is for those who are being delivered from sin by active grace. This is not positional cleanliness, but ACTIVE cleansing and the law was not able to do that and still isn't.

[Molly]

A failed joke. Plz ignore.

Not failed.  I laughed.

[Seth]

Sorry, WW, I'm a dufus when it comes to forum jokes. I need the drum roll. 

[WhiteWings]

Agreed.
But aren't we just humans talking about God?
Doesn't that mean we talk/reason like humans? Even if we want to reason like God we simply can't or at the very least don't know if we reason like got.

Yes we are humans talking about God, but to go back to the main issue, the Mosaic laws gave slaves to sin a reference point of God's holiness, in order to reveal sin to the sinner. HOWEVER, when the actual GOD is within man controlling man's nature and killing the body of death, the reference point is unnecessary as a means to follow it. God does not need a reference point. He doesn't need jots and tittles to tell Himself who He is....and He is in us, right?

The referrence point of the law is only for those who are slaves to sin. The living Spirit is for those who are being delivered from sin by active grace. This is not positional cleanliness, but ACTIVE cleansing and the law was not able to do that and still isn't.

I don't know what to reply. I said my things. I have no clue what it is/feels like to have God all in all.
I understand it's positive but that's it. So it's not a helpful answer for me.
You wrote "within man controlling man's nature" another thing beyond my grasp. If we are under full control of God we are all the same. And we are not we anymore. We don't even have our own thoughts. Don't ask me for any proof but somehow I don't think that's all in all.
But this (for me minor) issue is sidetracking the thread. So people continue where you left off.

[Seth]

Well, I don't want to miscommunicate. God is controlling the nature by delivering us from abject slavery to sin. However, Paul said that we have been given the Spirit as a foretaste of future glory, and that it is a downpayment leading to the "redemption of the purchased possession" Eph. 1:14.

It's a growth thing.

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (ie from sin, which is what it's all about) hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

What we need is teaching, and that comes by "grace" and grace is distinguishable from "law" because Moses doesn't guide us into salvation from sin, it accuses. It is a schoolteacher in that it leads to the living teacher which is Christ. Those who are perfect do not need a teacher, and we are not perfect.

However, being imperfect does not mean we need to be partially under law and partially under grace. It's when we chop up Moses into pieces, and throw out some and keep some other parts, that we lose all the wine completely. I would rather be under Moses completely rather than mix law with grace, and mix letter with spirit, and then lose everything. If we live by SOME of Moses, we are indebted to live by ALL of Moses.

What I am saying is, let's get out of Moses and get into grace.

[sparrow]

I don't know what to reply. I said my things. I have no clue what it is/feels like to have God all in all.

I understand it's positive but that's it. So it's not a helpful answer for me.
You wrote "within man controlling man's nature" another thing beyond my grasp. If we are under full control of God we are all the same. And we are not we anymore. We don't even have our own thoughts. Don't ask me for any proof but somehow I don't think that's all in all.
But this (for me minor) issue is sidetracking the thread. So people continue where you left off.

Hey, I think I get what you're saying. I was just thinking about this last night actually. Think about really young children.... they are still pure-minded (but ignorant) but if you look at their basic character, how pure minded they are... that's kind of a clue. They are not all the same, are they? No they are all each different little people with their own minds.

This is probably not making sense and now I have to leave for work... but I'll come back later tonight and explain better what I mean...

peace..

[Molly]

I don't know what to reply. I said my things. I have no clue what it is/feels like to have God all in all.

I understand it's positive but that's it. So it's not a helpful answer for me.
You wrote "within man controlling man's nature" another thing beyond my grasp. If we are under full control of God we are all the same. And we are not we anymore. We don't even have our own thoughts. Don't ask me for any proof but somehow I don't think that's all in all.
But this (for me minor) issue is sidetracking the thread. So people continue where you left off.

Hey, I think I get what you're saying. I was just thinking about this last night actually. Think about really young children.... they are still pure-minded (but ignorant) but if you look at their basic character, how pure minded they are... that's kind of a clue. They are not all the same, are they? No they are all each different little people with their own minds.

This is probably not making sense and now I have to leave for work... but I'll come back later tonight and explain better what I mean...

peace..

Yes, it makes sense, Sparrow.  God loves diversity.  Just look around at the world he created.

What is all the same is evil.  Evil just keeps doing the same thing over and over and over...

[Raggedy Anne]

9 Is that blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have been saying that God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God. 10 When did it happen? Was it after Abraham was circumcised, or before? It was before he was circumcised, not after! 11 He was circumcised as a sign of the covenant God had made with him. It showed that his faith had made him right with God before he was circumcised.

   So Abraham is the father of all believers who have not been circumcised. God accepts their faith. So their faith makes them right with him. 12 Abraham is also the father of the circumcised who believe. So just being circumcised is not enough. Those who are circumcised must also follow the steps of our father Abraham. He had faith before he was circumcised.

 13 Abraham and his family received a promise. God promised that Abraham would receive the world. It would not come to him because he obeyed the law. It would come because of his faith, which made him right with God.

 14 Do those who obey the law receive the promise? If they do, faith would have no value. God's promise would be worthless. 15 The law brings God's anger. Where there is no law, the law can't be broken.

 16 The promise is based on God's grace. The promise comes by faith. All of Abraham's children will certainly receive the promise. And it is not only for those who are ruled by the law. Those who have the same faith that Abraham had are also included. He is the father of us all.

--Rom 4

Wow!  This was quickened to me just now for the first time.   It's incredible how the scriptures must have the light of the Holy Spirit shining on them for us to understand.  And funny how we don't get the light shined on all the scripture in one fell swoop! 

Anne, amazed!   

[Raggedy Anne]

I know that John asked those questions TC, but the problem came in when you asked whether or not we are breaking the "moral standard" which you say is the 10 commandments. That is not the measuring stick by which I would establish the answers to those questions. The moral standard is the ENTIRE LAW, not 10 commandments. John understood that which is why his questions are all about whether or not CHRIST is within.

Your questions 1-6 are all about what WE do in relation to the supposed "moral standard" which you think are the 10 commandments. If I use those commandments to see if I am following them, then I would be establishing my OWN righteousness.

The point of faith is NOT to delete morality, but it is meant to bring the Spirit's righteousness into us.

When that happens we are NO LONGER UNDER the 10 commandments or any other commandment within the ENTIRE law. The whole thing is a shadow of Christ. Once I have the body, I no longer live by the shadow that the body casts. I have no problem with people asking "do you do this" or "do you do that." But I do have a problem when people ask me that in relation to living under 10 commandments. 

Seth,
How marvelously God has allowed you to explain this about the SHADOW OF CHRIST!   I get so excited when the lights come on for me! 

Anne

[Molly]

9 Is that blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have been saying that God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God. 10 When did it happen? Was it after Abraham was circumcised, or before? It was before he was circumcised, not after! 11 He was circumcised as a sign of the covenant God had made with him. It showed that his faith had made him right with God before he was circumcised.

   So Abraham is the father of all believers who have not been circumcised. God accepts their faith. So their faith makes them right with him. 12 Abraham is also the father of the circumcised who believe. So just being circumcised is not enough. Those who are circumcised must also follow the steps of our father Abraham. He had faith before he was circumcised.

 13 Abraham and his family received a promise. God promised that Abraham would receive the world. It would not come to him because he obeyed the law. It would come because of his faith, which made him right with God.

 14 Do those who obey the law receive the promise? If they do, faith would have no value. God's promise would be worthless. 15 The law brings God's anger. Where there is no law, the law can't be broken.

 16 The promise is based on God's grace. The promise comes by faith. All of Abraham's children will certainly receive the promise. And it is not only for those who are ruled by the law. Those who have the same faith that Abraham had are also included. He is the father of us all.

--Rom 4

Wow!  This was quickened to me just now for the first time.   It's incredible how the scriptures must have the light of the Holy Spirit shining on them for us to understand.  And funny how we don't get the light shined on all the scripture in one fell swoop! 

Anne, amazed!   

That's wonderful!  Now you know what sparked the Protestant reformation.  Martin Luther had the same experience when he finally got his hands on the New Testament and saw that we are justified by faith--not by works, birthright, money, or anything else--just faith. 


"This doctrine [justification by faith] is the head and the cornerstone. It alone begets, nourishes, builds, preserves, and defends the church of God; and without it the church of God cannot exist for one hour…. For no one who does not hold this article – or, to use Paul's expression, this 'sound doctrine' (Titus 2:1) – is able to teach aright in the church or successfully to resist any adversary . . . this is the heel of the Seed that opposes the old serpent and crushes its head. That is why Satan, in turn, cannot but persecute it."

--Martin Luther




29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

--Mat 11

[Raggedy Anne]

Molly,

I can't easily explain what I saw that I'd not seen before, so I guess I won't make an attempt to do so.  Sometimes even when something is quickened to me, I can't explain it to anyone.   Of course I knew already that we are justified by faith.   But it's not by my faith that I am justified, but the faith of the Son of God.   And those who don't know they are justified are nevertheless justified as far as God is concerned.  The journey into Christ's riches is the experience of learning what has been given to us in Him, rather than trying to figure out how we can get the riches.   There is a lot of gold I've been reading in many of these threads.   Thanks to all who take the time to express what has been shown to you.  I'm grateful for all of you who share your treasures.  Out of our bellies flow the rivers of living water.   

[Molly]

Molly,

I can't easily explain what I saw that I'd not seen before, so I guess I won't make an attempt to do so.  Sometimes even when something is quickened to me, I can't explain it to anyone.   Of course I knew already that we are justified by faith.   But it's not by my faith that I am justified, but the faith of the Son of God.   And those who don't know they are justified are nevertheless justified as far as God is concerned.  The journey into Christ's riches is the experience of learning what has been given to us in Him, rather than trying to figure out how we can get the riches.   There is a lot of gold I've been reading in many of these threads.   Thanks to all who take the time to express what has been shown to you.  I'm grateful for all of you who share your treasures.  Out of our bellies flow the rivers of living water.   

Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to imply you didn't already know that.  When you said that passage was quickened to you, I suddenly saw Martin Luther jumping up from the desk where he had been pouring over his Latin texts  and throwing his hands in the air.  I pictured the moment that he was quickened by that very concept.  And, the world was changed...

So I wanted to share that.

These things aren't just intellectual ideas to us, are they?  Something inside of us changes.  It's like God is switching on some new DNA lol--and we can suddenly see some part of Him that we couldn't see before.  What a Wonderful God we serve! 

[Molly]

Too bad Martin Luther didn't also see how to prevent the horrible blood bath that was had between the Protestants and the Catholics.   I suppose history has been forever replete with blood though. 

When I picture Martin Luther, I picture him nailing his thesis to the door (as the story is told), but also I've read a lot of disgusting things written about the man.  Who knows what he was really like in person?   He could not have been the only one to understand faith and grace - the invisible church had been around since the time of Jesus ascending to God.

Anne

"Disgusting"?  lol  Now we are talking about something else.  You cannot lay the bloodbaths at the feet of Luther, who did nothing more than tell the truth, a truth which liberates all peoples everywhere.  Lay that at the feet of the 'ten year olds' who refuse to accept truth even when it is in front of their noses, and thus, refuse to act on it until it is no longer escapable for them, at which point they explode in a temper tantrum of blood--in both cases displaying the worst characteristics of a child in an adult body.  Lay that at the feet of those who knew the truth and suppressed it.

I'm not saying that Luther was blameless or had the entire truth, but, what he had was golden, and he made sure he placed it in the hands of the whole world at great peril to himself.  The fact that we can read the Bible for ourselves in our own language and decide for ourselves what God has to tell us, the fact that we can even read, that such a large percentage of the population is literate, the fact that we live today in the freedom given to us by the Protestant reformation---Lay that at the feet of Martin Luther.




The Luther Bible by reason of its widespread circulation facilitated the emergence of the modern German language by standardizing it for the peoples of the Holy Roman Empire, an empire embodying most of present day Germany. It is considered a landmark in German literature.

Martin Luther has been quoted as referring to himself as an insignificant "bag of worms." Although he never occupied any high official position in the new church, it is clear that he was a vastly significant individual.[9] The first generation of Lutherans regarded him as the Wundermann, one who was called for, and sent by, God.[10] In 1534, Luther completed one of the most significant documents of the Reformation, his translation of the Bible in the vernacular. The center of Luther's achievement and influence were clearly religious as the ordinary layman could now read the word of God for himself. Due to his translation, the Bible managed to extend its spheres of influence towards German nationalism, liberation, education and could be utilized as a catalyst towards international Protestantism.[11]

Luther's significance was largely due to his influence on the emergence of the German language and nationalism. This importance stemmed predominantly from his translation of the Bible into the vernacular, which was potentially as revolutionary as canon law and the burning of the papal bull.[12] Luther's goal was to equip every Christian in Germany with the ability to hear the Word. Thus, by 1534 he completed his translation of the old and new testaments from Latin into the vernacular, one of the most significant acts of the Reformation.[13] Although Luther was not the first to attempt this translation, his was superior to all its predecessors. Previous translations contained poor German and were that of Vulgate, (translations of translations) rather than a direct translation to German text.[12] Luther sought to get as close to the original text as possible but at the same time, his translation was guided by how people spoke in the home, on the street and in the marketplace.[14] Luther combined his faithfulness to the language spoken by the common people to produce a work which the common man could relate to.[15] This aspect of Luther's creation led German writers such as Goethe and Nietzsche to thoroughly praise Luther's Bible.[16] The fact that the new Bible was printed in the vernacular allowed it to spread rapidly as it could be read by all. Hans Lufft, a renowned Bible printer in Wittenberg printed over one hundred thousand copies between 1534 and 1574 which went on to be read by millions.[17] Luther's Bible was virtually present in every German Protestant's home, and there can be no doubts regarding the vast biblical knowledge attained by the German common masses.[18] As a testament to the vast influence of Luther's Bible, he even had large print Bibles made for those who had failing eyesight.[16] German humanist Johann Cochlaeus depicted this notion perfectly as he complained that

"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity."[19]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible