Author Topic: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?  (Read 9002 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2009, 10:51:07 PM »
Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.


That is because no scriptural difference is drawn.  :thumbsup:

Christ fulfills ALL the law, if "the moral laws" still "bind" us then Christ fulfills only part of the law, and not the 10 commandments, and we are most miserable because we are still accused by the one we trusted, Moses.

TC10 clearly contradicts himself:

1) he says "the law is not for a righteous man"
2) the moral laws are still binding

I guess by his own admission, he must not be a righteous man if he is bound under laws - which are not for the righteous and are there to accuse the unrighteous.

 :doh:



That's because a righteous man wouldn't break them.  Not a contradiction.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2009, 10:57:07 PM »
It's a contradiction, because the law is not even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.

The law is against sin. But when you are delivered from sin by the Spirit, what law can accuse you?

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2009, 10:58:58 PM »
So, TC10 registered today and he's already on restricted status. Yet another CoG/ lee incarnation? A buddy this time perhaps?
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2009, 11:01:23 PM »
It's a contradiction, because the law is not even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.

The law is against sin. But when you are delivered from sin by the Spirit, what law can accuse you?


AMEN

PRAISE HIM


Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2009, 11:02:52 PM »
Matt 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


When the new heaven and earth comes to each person, that is when the jots and tittles pass. That is why Jesus told them to keep following the law, because he hadn't yet established HIS church. He established the new heaven and new earth (the New Jerusalem bride), and for each person that enters the new heaven and earth, the jots and tittles pass.

Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in all who believe.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2009, 11:03:02 PM »
It's a contradiction, because the law is even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.
Yes because a righteous man would not break God's law because he loves God.  That is why Jesus gives us only two commandments on which all the law and prophets hang.  Love will not harm anyone, therefore love is fulfillment of the Law.

A new man is being created who looks, acts, and behaves just like Jesus!



43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


--Mat 5


Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2009, 11:04:12 PM »
It's a contradiction, because the law is even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.
Yes because a righteous man would not break God's law because he loves God.  That is why Jesus gives us only two commandments on which all the law and prophets hang.  Love will not harm anyone, therefore love is fulfillment of the Law.

A new man is being created who looks, acts, and behaves just like Jesus!



43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


--Mat 5



And yet even those two commandments were spoken to people who were living under an old heaven and old earth.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2009, 11:05:14 PM »
You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2009, 11:08:58 PM »
You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Yes?  Well, try killing me and see how God deals with you.

Two lampstands.  Two lights.  Two Laws.  Which are really both the same, one a higher revelation of the other...


Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2009, 11:15:52 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Molly on Today at 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on Today at 04:05:14 PM
You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Yes?  Well, try killing me and see how God deals with you.

Two lampstands.  Two lights.  Two Laws.  Which are really both the same, one a higher revelation of the other...


Why would I want to kill you? I live in a NEW country from ABOVE. I wouldn't want to kill you BECAUSE I am delivered from sin and still being delivered, and therefore I am delivered to a NEW country whereby I am a stranger in a strange land.

Therefore I do not live under Old Jerusalem with it's jot and tittle laws, but in NEW Jerusalem in which Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those who believe. That is because HE is my righteousness from within, not Moses.

Against love there is no law which needs to state "thall shalt not kill" and being delivered from sin means I do not even NEED to be under such a law which is for murderers by their nature.

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2009, 11:18:43 PM »
The 10 commandments of course. Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:



Paul warned us about mixing law with grace in Galatians. We are not under law but under grace. WHEN Paul was under law it was his schoolmaster leading him to Christ and WHEN the Jews were under law it was THEN that the law led them to Christ.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2009, 11:21:09 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Molly on Today at 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on Today at 04:05:14 PM
You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Yes?  Well, try killing me and see how God deals with you.

Two lampstands.  Two lights.  Two Laws.  Which are really both the same, one a higher revelation of the other...


Why would I want to kill you? I live in a NEW country from ABOVE. I wouldn't want to kill you BECAUSE I am delivered from sin and still being delivered, and therefore I am delivered to a NEW country whereby I am a stranger in a strange land.

Therefore I do not live under Old Jerusalem with it's jot and tittle laws, but in NEW Jerusalem in which Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those who believe. That is because HE is my righteousness from within, not Moses.

Against love there is no law which needs to state "thall shalt not kill" and being delivered from sin means I do not even NEED to be under such a law which is for murderers by their nature.
Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2009, 11:22:12 PM »
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.

I don't need the law, and therefore no moral laws by way of the old country can bind me or accuse me. The law is not for a righteous man, but for murderers.

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2009, 11:24:14 PM »
The 10 commandments of course. Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:



Paul warned us about mixing law with grace in Galatians. We are not under law but under grace. WHEN Paul was under law it was his schoolmaster leading him to Christ and WHEN the Jews were under law it was THEN that the law led them to Christ.

so what leads one to Christ now if it isn't the law??

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2009, 11:24:48 PM »
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.
Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2009, 11:26:03 PM »
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.
Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2009, 11:28:34 PM »
Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.


Who isn't breaking Gods laws?


Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2009, 11:28:52 PM »
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.
Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.
You are not going to break it, therefore you are still under it but operating at a higher level.

It's inside rather than outside.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2009, 11:30:19 PM »
Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.


Who isn't breaking Gods laws?


Who isn't?  Must be somebody or Jesus wouldn't have said, go and sin no more.

He wouldn't have said that if it's not possible.

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2009, 11:31:13 PM »
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.
Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.
You are not going to break it, therefore you are still under it but operating at a higher level.

It's inside rather than outside.

Nope, I'm not under Moses, I am in Christ instead. As I said, if you say you are under Moses, that is between you and God. I am not under Moses.

HartleyDamboiseII

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2009, 11:34:32 PM »
Zeek, IMO
what leads one to Christ is Christ...

After He rose from the dead, all sin was done away with, and Spiritual Separation/Death

Every human being is born with Eternal life after the cross, Vivified, In Christ, it just takes Christ longer with some to see that they are living in an Eternal.

Lee Damboise II---IMO

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1666
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2009, 11:35:10 PM »
The 10 commandments of course. Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:



Paul warned us about mixing law with grace in Galatians. We are not under law but under grace. WHEN Paul was under law it was his schoolmaster leading him to Christ and WHEN the Jews were under law it was THEN that the law led them to Christ.

so what leads one to Christ now if it isn't the law??

Since Gentiles were never under law, the law could never lead them to Christ. It is through God using the evangelist to bring the evangel being preached to us that  God uses to open our mind, ears and heart to the truth of our salvation.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2009, 11:35:41 PM »
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.
Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.
You are not going to break it, therefore you are still under it but operating at a higher level.

It's inside rather than outside.

Nope, I'm not under Moses, I am in Christ instead. As I said, if you say you are under Moses, that is between you and God. I am not under Moses.

well, you can put it any way you like, but we are saying the same thing.  If you are in Christ and Christ is in you, you are not going to break the 10 commandments.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


--Mat 5

HartleyDamboiseII

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2009, 11:36:43 PM »
IMO-- Molly, that was when he was forfilling the law to law christians or jews
Not Pauls new Gospel, of Grace

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3205
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2009, 11:37:40 PM »
Those who who walk by the spirit do not need laws to check their behavior. Only those who have not matured in love need laws to tell them what they should do.

If my nature is changed, I no longer need a number of laws to tell me not to do this or that. Those are just schoolteachers which have lead me to Christ who is the end of the law for righteousness. That's just me. If anyone still thinks they need Moses for righteousness, so be it. That is on them. I do not follow the letter.

Quote
well, you can put it any way you like, but we are saying the same thing.  If you are in Christ and Christ is in you, you are not going to break the 10 commandments.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We are not saying the same thing. I am saying that I am not UNDER the 10 commandments because they are not for me, because you cannot break the laws of a land you do not live in. I live in a new country, whereby the letter is passed away, and the Spirit is come to make all things new.

You are telling me that I am still under laws which aren't FOR those who are righteous. GRACE is what makes people righteous by by changing our nature, making the letter passed away. I cannot break commandments that are not even for me in the first place.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 11:54:36 PM by Seth »