Author Topic: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?  (Read 9575 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2009, 09:10:44 PM »
willie,

and we have known that the law is good, if any one may use it lawfully; ( 1 Tim 1:8)

having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, ( 1 Tim 1:9)

USING the Law "lawfully" does not make the Law "GOOD"... it makes it "GOOD" concerning us... the LAW is GOOD ...OF ITSELF, as I have already noted in Romans...  :dontknow:

PS -- :dunno: -- are you going to answer my question?  :cloud9:

Are you CoG37/lee100?

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

HartleyDamboiseII

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2009, 09:11:11 PM »
So truechristian1  what do you think of being a rapist, its in the law that you follow

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2009, 09:13:44 PM »
And yet you have no scriptural basis.  :thumbdown:

I think you made a good case, bro... I too would like to see SCRIPTURAL basis for the "disagreement"... :nod:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3456
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2009, 09:15:50 PM »
Quote from: TC10
having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, ( 1 Tim 1:9)

You say you disagree with my statements, then you quote a scripture which proves my statements?

The law is not for a righteous man. Therefore.....the 10 commandments ARE NOT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS TO FOLLOW.

They are only for those who are not righteous. But WE are to have righteousness in Christ by Christ's righteousness in us. So I do not judge myself, nor do I TEST myself by what you label as the "moral code" - as if God's moral code is not present all throughout Leviticus. Give me a break.

truechristian10

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2009, 09:16:08 PM »
lee,

I was once lost.. but I have been found by God's grace.  I once was a sinner and ungodly, but now I'm a new creature in Christ by faith. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24)

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3456
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2009, 09:17:41 PM »
And yet you have no scriptural basis.  :thumbdown:

I think you made a good case, bro... I too would like to see SCRIPTURAL basis for the "disagreement"... :nod:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Thank you brother. And I would like to repeat your very SIMPLE question to TC10.

TC10: Are you CoG37/lee100?

Don't let that question trip you up now, it shouldn't be difficult if you are not them. But if you are... I can see why you would be something to avoid...

It would make you a lying hypocrite.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2009, 09:18:10 PM »

If we are under the law of faith [in Christ Jesus], we are no longer under the Law [of Moses].  

Why?

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


--Gal 5


Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2009, 09:18:51 PM »
willieH: Hi TC10 --  :cloud9:

Are you CoG37/lee100?

Thanks for your YES/NO answer...  :cloud9:

Hello!  TC10 -- are you going to answer my question?  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2009, 09:21:56 PM »
willie,

and we have known that the law is good, if any one may use it lawfully; ( 1 Tim 1:8)

having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, ( 1 Tim 1:9)

USING the Law "lawfully" does not make the Law "GOOD"... it makes it "GOOD" concerning us... the LAW is GOOD ...OF ITSELF, as I have already noted in Romans...  :dontknow:

PS -- :dunno: -- are you going to answer my question?  :cloud9:

Are you CoG37/lee100?

...willieH  :HeartThrob:



1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;


I think at least one issue here is christians who use the law to minimize their own sins.

 

truechristian10

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2009, 09:22:05 PM »
seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.

HartleyDamboiseII

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2009, 09:25:36 PM »
In Christ BY Faith????
Whose Faith...

Your own or someone else's faith.

"Maybe" it is a Church/Baptist faith you have learned this from/ N.I.V.

Jesus' Faith or Yours -- Who's  ?
K.J.V.                Rom. 3:22
   Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith of Jesus Christ…

N.I.V.
   The righteousness from God comes through Faith in Jesus Christ…

C.L.N.T.V.
   A righteousness of God through Jesus Christs' Faith.(E ph. 2.8  Too –through Jesus' Faith)

Gal. 2:16

K.J.V.
   Knowing the a man is not justified by the works of the law, But by the faith of Jesus Christ, even when we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we be justified by the faith of Christ.

N.I.V.
   Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but( by faith in) Jesus Christ.  So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Jesus Christ.


HartleyDamboiseII

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2009, 09:27:51 PM »
These two types say a world of difference in who is/has done the work.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2009, 09:36:18 PM »
seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.
Yes, and  then what happens?

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2009, 09:40:02 PM »
seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.
Yes, and  then what happens?
Ask that to the next person that regs :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2009, 09:42:24 PM »
In Christ BY Faith????
Whose Faith...

Your own or someone else's faith.

"Maybe" it is a Church/Baptist faith you have learned this from/ N.I.V.

Jesus' Faith or Yours -- Who's  ?
K.J.V.                Rom. 3:22
   Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith of Jesus Christ…

N.I.V.
   The righteousness from God comes through Faith in Jesus Christ…

C.L.N.T.V.
   A righteousness of God through Jesus Christs' Faith.(E ph. 2.8  Too –through Jesus' Faith)

Gal. 2:16

K.J.V.
   Knowing the a man is not justified by the works of the law, But by the faith of Jesus Christ, even when we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we be justified by the faith of Christ.

N.I.V.
   Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but( by faith in) Jesus Christ.  So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Jesus Christ.



wow.  We have the faith of Jesus.  pistis Iēsous.  Jesus' faith.  :mshock:

That means so did Abraham before he was circumcised.   :mshock:


Rom 3:22  Even1161 the righteousness1343 of God2316 which is by1223 faith4102 of Jesus2424 Christ5547 unto1519 all3956 and2532 upon1909 all3956 them that believe:4100 for1063 there is2076 no3756 difference:1293



martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2009, 09:42:55 PM »
Ask that to the next person that regs :laughing7:
Yeah, really! :icon_jokercolor:

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3456
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2009, 09:43:39 PM »
seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.

You say you disagree with me, yet you prove my point.  :mshock:

And on top of that you give no scriptural basis for me to believe that the "10 commandments" are the "high moral standard" and not the entire law. Do you know that Jesus quoted a Leviticus commandment when asked what the greatest commandments are:

Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Do you see "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" commited in letter on stone tablets (10 commandments)? I don't. The SECOND GREATEST COMMANDMENT is here:

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take revenge or bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.


There are actually TWO commandments in that verse, and BOTH are not in the 10 commandments, and ONE was said by Jesus to be one of the greatest.

The problem with your test is that it tells me "If not, understand your guilt by sinning against God by continually breaking His 10 commandments, His Holy Moral Standard."

Right away that tells me that

1) I need to stop breaking the 10 commandments, which means I would need to live by them. The truth is that God does not want us to either break them or live by them, BUT NOT BE UNDER THEM AT ALL.  

2) It tells me that you think that 10 commandments have a higher place in God's law than a certain commandment Christ considered to be greater than even keeping the Sabbath

You say: "The judicial and Ceremonial laws no long apply( because of Jesus sacrifice) but the Moral law is still binding for today."

Oh REALLY? Tell me where the Bible creates a separation of "judicial" "ceremonial" and "moral laws" and then tell me where it says "the moral law is still binding for today" and then tell me where it says that "the 10 commandments are the moral laws."

You will not be able to do that, because the fact of the matter is that the BIBLE DOES NOT SAY ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

It says "we do not live by the letter but by the Spirit." If you attempt to "BIND" us to supposed "moral laws" being supposed 10 commandments YOU become a Judaizer, attempting to convince me to live by a section of Moses which supposedly I should still be under.

I am not under ANY part of Moses. I am free from all letter, under Christ who gives me all HIS commandments day to day in my walk.



Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2009, 10:01:48 PM »
Quote from: Seth
Do you see "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" commited in letter on stone tablets (10 commandments)? I don't. The SECOND GREATEST COMMANDMENT is here:

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take revenge or bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

That's because the Law of faith [of Christ Jesus] and the Law of Moses were always standing side by side, even in the Old Testament.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.


Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.



He is so Wonderful!

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2009, 10:15:44 PM »


Looks like a knockout in round 3.


Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2009, 10:21:00 PM »
Those who are under the Law of faith [of Christ Jesus] are the holy arm of God!
They are the Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym!


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.




"the salvation/ of our God"

Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2009, 10:22:07 PM »
willieH:  Hi CoG37 aka lee100 aka TC10 -- :hithere:

One last thing to you...

If you really are a representative of CHRIST and the GOSPEL... then why all the decieving DISGUISES?  Why have you NOT been FORTHRIGHT, as to WHO you are?  :sigh:

Shall you "don" yet another name, and masquerade further? 

We shall see...

Maybe GOD has drawn you here to learn of and expose, the fallacies in your beliefs, and to bring you OUT of BABYLON...  :dontknow:  Think about it!

If that were to be the case... :welcome:

willieH  :HeartThrob:

HartleyDamboiseII

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2009, 10:27:29 PM »
Commandments-Statutes-Judgments-Decree-Decalog-Ordinances

     In reference to the fact that there is no sin if there is no law ---  also connect the thought that overcoming the law will remove us from the curse of death, 1 Cor. 15:55-58 says, " O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.   But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through{ Dia. } our Lord Jesus Christ."  This indicates that death comes because of sin and sin comes because of the law.  Conversely, it might be interpreted that the law brings sin and sin brings death.  Remembering that we are to seek immortality  (Rom.2:7)  
Perhaps a clue to entering the state of immortality is to eliminate the cause of death which is sin and law.  Since Jesus fulfilled the law and brought us four simple new ones( laws ), we may find the process of entering immortality will involve our keeping Jesus' four commandments and not allowing our minds to condemn ourselves when we are led by the Holy Spirit to do things that are against the commandments of Moses.  
                   I am presently convinced there is no authority for teaching the idea that the O.T. is to be divided into sections and that some of those sections are not to be followed and that some are to be used as law even now.  Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.  To get a little technical, the TORAH is the law and it includes the total of everything concerning it.  The TSAVAH is the prime commandment and it includes the rituals and lots of other statutes too---  including the Ten Commandments ( words ).  The MISHPAT is the judgment.  The CHOQ is the statute and decree.  The MITSVAH is from the TSAVAH and is a commandment.  The DABAR is a "word" and is used in the Ten Commandments ( word ) sometimes called DECALOG  ( or the 10 words ).

               The EDAH  is a testimony or witness and comes from the idea to duplicate.  The CHUQQAH    is a statute or ordinance or decreed limit.  These are eight O.T. words that are used interchangeably in our translations.  Concerning the O.T. law; there is just no way to decide which ones to keep and which to throw out.  In checking out the article which pleads with us to return to the law, I noticed that the author quoted some of the better commands ( TSAVAH ) such as apply to health, government and military ideas  --  and I agree   --  but there was no mention of the commands  ( TSAVAH ) which are impossible to keep in OUR PRESENT SOCIETY.  For example, give dead animal meat to a stranger and sell to alien but don't eat it yourself ( Deut. 14:21 ).  I wouldn't want to give or sell bad meat to anyone.  Also, offer no blemished sacrifice (Deut. 17:1 ). Well, I don't intend to offer any sacrifice at all --  blemished or not.  How about  --  stone the wicked person (Deut. 17:5 ) ?
           I don't believe Jesus wants me to stone anybody..  ? The commandments say if I take a beautiful women captive in a battle I am to leave her alone for a month before having sexual intercourse with her ( Deut. 21:10 ) When  I was in the U. S. Navy in the Korean War I never intended to keep that commandment by having sexual intercourse with any captive woman  --  and my wife Agreed !  How about the command that the son of your hated wife is to receive the greater inheritance if born before the son of your beloved wife ?  The only way I know how to keep that command is to engage in polygamy and I do not intend to keep that command.  In fact, my government would prosecute me, my society would persecute me and MY WIFE WOULD EXECUTE ME if I did keep it !  The command ( TSAVAH ) is to kill your stubborn, rebellious child.  I'm glad that my parents didn't keep that one!  The command ( TSAVAH ) says that a rapist MUST marry his victim ( any age ) if she is not engaged to another man ( Deut. 22:28 ).  I find it inconceivable that anyone would want to go back to the commandments of the O. T.
                   It is a thrill to me to know that my Savior Jesus Christ made it all simple by condensing (8) different words and hundreds of different ways of translating them into       ( 4 ) simple commands.

     1.   Watch for the return of the Son of Man (Second coming/Presence ) (Mark 13:34 ) I Lee Damboise II, believes this is when a person is(Born again-Jewish Circumised Law Christians, Peter's Gospel) or US GENTILES (Adopted into the body of Christ--Jews + Gentiles, Pauls Gospel, Grace )].  And has NOTHING to do with a Rapture.
2.    Love each other (John 15:17 ).
    3.   When we minister we are to preach and teach that ( Acts 10:41-43 ):
A.   Jesus was ordained of God
B.   Jesus brings remission of sins to believers…
4.     Be a light to the Gentiles ( which you were ), Acts 13: 47.
                                       Now I feel FREE TO LIVE

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3456
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2009, 10:42:09 PM »
Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.


That is because no scriptural difference is drawn.  :thumbsup:

Christ fulfills ALL the law, if "the moral laws" still "bind" us then Christ fulfills only part of the law, and not the 10 commandments, and we are most miserable because we are still accused by the one we trusted, Moses.

TC10 clearly contradicts himself:

1) he says "the law is not for a righteous man"
2) the moral laws are still binding

I guess by his own admission, he must not be a righteous man if he is bound under laws - which are not for the righteous and are there to accuse the unrighteous.

 :doh:



HartleyDamboiseII

  • Guest
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2009, 10:46:00 PM »
That is a big 10-4
that is why I posted my list of lets say laws.
For him to hopefully see that.

I personally don't mind either way what he is or isn't, just that he will experience life through us/grace/the Father...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: 1 John. Are you a true Christian?
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2009, 10:48:26 PM »
34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

 38This is the first and great commandment.

 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

--Mat 22