Author Topic: 1 john 5:16 meaning?  (Read 7291 times)

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Offline IceMan84

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1 john 5:16 meaning?
« on: June 21, 2010, 10:13:13 PM »
I came across this verse in one of the newsletters that Gary sends out via email, and I was wondering if someone could clarify it for me. What does it mean by "sin which does not lead to death" and vice versa? Also, does this have any relationship to UR. By the way, I'm not sure what translation this is from (see below):

16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 Jno 5:16,17)

Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 10:27:22 PM »
I think all sins can be forgiven but the one sin that Jesus said blasphemy against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven. If blasphemy is pretending to be God or Jesus, then I assume blasphemy against the spirit is pretending to be the holy ghost.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 10:28:56 PM »
Under the law of Moses for Israel there were certain sins for which the penalty was to be taken outside the city and be stoned to death by the leaders and elders of the city.  Other wrong things were punished by 40 stripes minus 1.  If someone stole something they were to pay 2 fold in return, unless it was something used to make a living.  Then the penalty was 4 fold.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline IceMan84

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 10:34:47 PM »
I think all sins can be forgiven but the one sin that Jesus said blasphemy against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven. If blasphemy is pretending to be God or Jesus, then I assume blasphemy against the spirit is pretending to be the holy ghost.
I'm not sure where you are drawing a connection to the unforgivable sin because it says that all sin is punishable by death. Also, it says they won't be forgiven in this age or the age to come...not forever.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 10:42:26 PM by IceMan84 »

Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 10:39:04 PM »
Another thought occured to me and that is that the sin unto death, sin leading into death are fornication sins.

Whos temple ye are, and if you defile Gods temple will he not destroy it?

All sins are outside the body but he that fornicates, sins against God.

There are verses similar to that
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 10:45:04 PM by thinktank »

Offline IceMan84

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 10:48:58 PM »
Under the law of Moses for Israel there were certain sins for which the penalty was to be taken outside the city and be stoned to death by the leaders and elders of the city.  Other wrong things were punished by 40 stripes minus 1.  If someone stole something they were to pay 2 fold in return, unless it was something used to make a living.  Then the penalty was 4 fold.

But this is from the new testament. Also, why shouldn't you pray for someone just bc they are going to die?

Offline jabcat

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 10:53:59 PM »
One option to consider, TM Main Page, Bible Threatenings Explained;  having to do with legal issues/the law;

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#10

"The sin unto death" has often been supposed to be the "unpardonable sin," so called, as though any sin could be unpardonable by a God whose mercy is without limit and without end. The apostle was merely alluding to the various offences under the Jewish law, some of which were unto death, or capital offences, while others were less heinous. The latter were to be interceded for, but the former were to be regarded as beyond intercession. On this passage Bishop Horne correctly says:

"The Talmudical writers have distinguished the capital punishments of the Jews into lesser deaths and such as were more grievous; but there is no warrant in the Scriptures for these distinctions, neither are these writers agreed among themselves what particular punishments are to be referred to these two heads. A capital crime generally was termed a sin of death (deut. xvi:6); or a sin worthy of death (Deut. xxi:22), which mode of expression is adopted, or rather imitated, by the apostle John, who distinguishes between a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (I John v:16). Criminals, or those who were deemed worthy of capital punishment, were called sons or men of death (I Sam. xv:32; xxxi:16; II Sam. xix:28, marginal reading), just as he who had incurred the punishment of scourging was designated a son of stripes (Deut.xxv:16; I Kings xiv:6). A similar phraseology was adopted by Jesus Christ, when he said to the Jews: "Ye shall die in your sins" (John viii:21-24). Eleven different sorts of capital punishment are mentioned in the sacred writings."

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 11:01:46 PM »
Under the law of Moses for Israel there were certain sins for which the penalty was to be taken outside the city and be stoned to death by the leaders and elders of the city.  Other wrong things were punished by 40 stripes minus 1.  If someone stole something they were to pay 2 fold in return, unless it was something used to make a living.  Then the penalty was 4 fold.

But this is from the new testament. Also, why shouldn't you pray for someone just bc they are going to die?

I think it could possibly mean that the sin unto death are those who have the spirit of the antichrist, those that deny Jesus Christ come in the flesh. Notice most of the epistle talks about this truth, now if you turn to the second epistle, you will find the same message, this time John say do not wish him God speed, for if you do you will become partaker of his evil deeds. So I think John is saying don't pray or perhaps he means don't bless those who deny Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.


Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 11:09:20 PM »
One option to consider, TM Main Page, Bible Threatenings Explained;  having to do with legal issues/the law;

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#10

"The sin unto death" has often been supposed to be the "unpardonable sin," so called, as though any sin could be unpardonable by a God whose mercy is without limit and without end. The apostle was merely alluding to the various offences under the Jewish law, some of which were unto death, or capital offences, while others were less heinous. The latter were to be interceded for, but the former were to be regarded as beyond intercession. On this passage Bishop Horne correctly says:

"The Talmudical writers have distinguished the capital punishments of the Jews into lesser deaths and such as were more grievous; but there is no warrant in the Scriptures for these distinctions, neither are these writers agreed among themselves what particular punishments are to be referred to these two heads. A capital crime generally was termed a sin of death (deut. xvi:6); or a sin worthy of death (Deut. xxi:22), which mode of expression is adopted, or rather imitated, by the apostle John, who distinguishes between a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (I John v:16). Criminals, or those who were deemed worthy of capital punishment, were called sons or men of death (I Sam. xv:32; xxxi:16; II Sam. xix:28, marginal reading), just as he who had incurred the punishment of scourging was designated a son of stripes (Deut.xxv:16; I Kings xiv:6). A similar phraseology was adopted by Jesus Christ, when he said to the Jews: "Ye shall die in your sins" (John viii:21-24). Eleven different sorts of capital punishment are mentioned in the sacred writings."



But the holy ghost is a spirit, how can you assign man made laws to prevent sinning against the spirit of God. Maybe it's possible with the son for he was physical as Jesus of Nazareth, but even then do you think the Pharises cared about Jesus? they made every effort to trip him up and condem him under the law

Blasphemy against the son shall be forgiven, but he that blasphemes against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven, not in this life or the world to come


« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 11:43:29 PM by thinktank »

Offline IceMan84

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 11:35:34 PM »
One option to consider, TM Main Page, Bible Threatenings Explained;  having to do with legal issues/the law;

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#10

"The sin unto death" has often been supposed to be the "unpardonable sin," so called, as though any sin could be unpardonable by a God whose mercy is without limit and without end. The apostle was merely alluding to the various offences under the Jewish law, some of which were unto death, or capital offences, while others were less heinous. The latter were to be interceded for, but the former were to be regarded as beyond intercession. On this passage Bishop Horne correctly says:

"The Talmudical writers have distinguished the capital punishments of the Jews into lesser deaths and such as were more grievous; but there is no warrant in the Scriptures for these distinctions, neither are these writers agreed among themselves what particular punishments are to be referred to these two heads. A capital crime generally was termed a sin of death (deut. xvi:6); or a sin worthy of death (Deut. xxi:22), which mode of expression is adopted, or rather imitated, by the apostle John, who distinguishes between a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (I John v:16). Criminals, or those who were deemed worthy of capital punishment, were called sons or men of death (I Sam. xv:32; xxxi:16; II Sam. xix:28, marginal reading), just as he who had incurred the punishment of scourging was designated a son of stripes (Deut.xxv:16; I Kings xiv:6). A similar phraseology was adopted by Jesus Christ, when he said to the Jews: "Ye shall die in your sins" (John viii:21-24). Eleven different sorts of capital punishment are mentioned in the sacred writings."


Thanks, that link is very helpful

Offline jabcat

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2010, 01:04:54 AM »
thinktank, I believe the correct translation is 'age to come', as in the next age.  Some even say that's referencing this current age, because Jesus was talking pre-cross at the time.

You're welcome iceman, glad it helped.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2010, 01:13:06 AM »
From the same link on TM Homepage;

THE BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY GHOST

The passages that relate to this subject are in Matt. xii:31,32:"Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor the world to come." Mark iii:28-30: "all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; because they said, he hath an unclean spirit." Luke xii:10: "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."

What is this sin? It consisted in ascribing the power by which Jesus wrought his wonderful works to Satan. He was accused of being aided by Beelzebub, of having an unclean spirit, and of working his miracles by the power of an evil spirit. From this it follows that but very few persons are exposed to the doom here threatened, inasmuch as very few have ever committed this sin.

But if we take this language literally, we must hold that all other sinners, of every character and kind, will be saved, because just as positively as the Scripture declares that these blasphemeies shall never be forgiven, it declares that all others literally and absolutely shall be forgiven. "Verily I say unto you all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme." The sin against the Holy Ghost is the only sin that shall not be pardoned. All other sinners. thieves, liars, murderers, all except that very small number that accused Jesus of receiveing diabolical help, shall be forgiven. Does not this show that the terms of the passage are not to be taken literally? Does it not appear that men must either believe that all kinds of sinners, and all of them, except this small number, must be pardoned, or else that the rest of the language is not to be taken literally? It is asserted just as positively that all others shall be, as that these few shall not be forgiven.

If the "shall" and "shall not" are to be understood literally, then the number of the damned is entirely limited to the very few who actually saw Christ's miracles, and ascribed them to Beelzebub. No one since, and no one hereafter can be damned, for all other sin but that shall be forgiven. This saves all mankind except those few persons who said, "he [Christ] hath an unclean spirit." This reduces hell to a mere mote in the universe, and excludes all now living, or who hereafter shall live, from any exposure to it.

What does that language mean? Campbell says this is "a noted Hebraism;" that is, a term of speech common among the Jews, to teach that one event is more likely to occur than another, and not that either shall or shall not occur.

Dr. Newcome says: "It is a common figure of speech in the oriental languages, to say of two things that the one shall be and the other shall not be, when the meaning is that the one shall happen sooner, or more easily, than the other."

Grotius and Bishop Newton are to the same purport. For illustration, when Jesus says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away," he does not mean that heaven and earth shall actually pass away, but they will sooner fail than his words. It is a strong method of asserting that his words shall be fulfilled. This is common in the Bible.

Prov. viii:10: "Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold." Matt. vi::19,20: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal." Luke xiv:12,13:"Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind." John vi:27: "Labor not for the meat that perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you; for him hath God the father sealed."

The plain meaning is, all other sins are more easily forgiven than this. The words "never," "neither in this world nor the world to come," do not change the sense, but only strengthen and intensify the Savior's meaning that this is of all sins the worst.

The popular impression that 'the world to come" here means the life after death is an error.

Dr. Clarke well observes: "Though I follow the common translation, yet I am fully satisfied the meaning of the words is, neither in this dispensation, viz., the Jewish, nor in that which is to come. Olam ha-bo, the world to come, is a constant phrase for the times of the Messiah, in the Jewish writers."

Wakefield, Rosenmuller and Hammond also give the same opinion. And it should be added that the word "never" is no part of the original Greek. That is, not under either dispensation, or age (aion--mistranslated "world"), will this inexcusable sin be less than the greatest of transgressions.

Bishop Pearce declares: "This is a strong way of expressing how difficult a thing it was for such a sinner to obtain pardon. The Greek word aion seems to signifyage here, as it often does in the New Testament (see Matt. xiii:40; xxiv 3; Col. i:26; Eph. iii:5,21) and according to its most proper signification. If this be so, then 'this age' means the Jewish one, and 'the age to come' (see Hebrews vi:5 and Eph. ii:7) means that under the Christian dispensation. The end of the world took place during the time of the apostles. 'Now once in the end of the world hath he [Christ] appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'--Heb. ix:26. 'Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.' I Cor. x:11."

Gilpin observes, "Nobody can suppose, considering the whole tenor of Christianity, that there can be any sin which, on repentance, may not be forgiven. This, therefore, seems only a strong way of expressing the difficuolty of such repentance, and the impossibility of forgiveness without it. Such an expression occurs Matt. xix:24: 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter heaven;' that is, it is very difficult. That the Pharisees were not beyond the reach of forgiveness, on their repentance, seems to be plain from verse 41, where the repentance of Nineveh is held out to them for an example."

Clarke says: "Any penitent may find mercy through Christ Jesus; for through him any kind of sin may be forgiven to man, except the sin against the Holy Ghost, which I have proved no man can now commit."--Clarke on I. John v:16. And again: "No man who believes the divine mission of Jesus Christ, ever can commit this sin."

These are all "Orthodox" commentators, whose opinions were certainly not formed by prejudice in favor of our views of the passages in question. They agree with what seems the meaning of the Savior, that this sin is of all others most inexcusable. But that any sin is literally unpardonable, by a God and Father of infinite love and mercy, is nowhere expressed or implied in the Bible.

Mark's language "hath never forgiveness" should read "has not forgiveness to the age," but is liable to aionian judgment; that is, to an indefinite penalty. See the word aionios, explained in subsequent pages of this book.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2010, 01:26:22 AM »
From the same link on TM Homepage;

THE BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY GHOST

The passages that relate to this subject are in Matt. xii:31,32:"Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor the world to come." Mark iii:28-30: "all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; because they said, he hath an unclean spirit." Luke xii:10: "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."

What is this sin? It consisted in ascribing the power by which Jesus wrought his wonderful works to Satan. He was accused of being aided by Beelzebub, of having an unclean spirit, and of working his miracles by the power of an evil spirit. From this it follows that but very few persons are exposed to the doom here threatened, inasmuch as very few have ever committed this sin.



Thank you, you took the words out of my mouth and expressed them better than what I would have done, but I did find a problem with my original saying, which I deleted, for I didn't want to scare anyone, I will tell you jabcat, by pm if you want to hear it?


Offline Tony N

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2010, 04:05:52 AM »
I came across this verse in one of the newsletters that Gary sends out via email, and I was wondering if someone could clarify it for me. What does it mean by "sin which does not lead to death" and vice versa? Also, does this have any relationship to UR. By the way, I'm not sure what translation this is from (see below):

16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 Jno 5:16,17)

Ananias and Sapphira's sin was a sin unto death.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline IceMan84

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 04:39:49 AM »
I came across this verse in one of the newsletters that Gary sends out via email, and I was wondering if someone could clarify it for me. What does it mean by "sin which does not lead to death" and vice versa? Also, does this have any relationship to UR. By the way, I'm not sure what translation this is from (see below):

16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 Jno 5:16,17)

Ananias and Sapphira's sin was a sin unto death.

I have a hard time with this scriptute. So do you think God literally struck these people dead for lying? People still lie about money all the time yet they don't fall over dead.

Offline Tony N

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 02:40:38 PM »
I came across this verse in one of the newsletters that Gary sends out via email, and I was wondering if someone could clarify it for me. What does it mean by "sin which does not lead to death" and vice versa? Also, does this have any relationship to UR. By the way, I'm not sure what translation this is from (see below):

16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 Jno 5:16,17)

Ananias and Sapphira's sin was a sin unto death.

I have a hard time with this scriptute. So do you think God literally struck these people dead for lying? People still lie about money all the time yet they don't fall over dead.

That was during the era when the kingdom powers were in full force. Today they are not. Look also at the Corinthians. This was during the era when the kingdom powers were still in full force:

1Co 11:29-32  For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord."  (30)  Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing."  (31)  For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged."  (32)  Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."

Some sinned unto death (reposing).

Now, with the kingdom of Israel set aside and undiluted grace is for the nations we are not under such severe judgments. At least I don't think so. But I still think "the grace of God trains/hits/disciplines us"

Tit 2:11-12  For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,  (12) training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon,

The "training us" is the same as "hitting us."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline IceMan84

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 04:48:05 PM »
I guess I just struggle with what appears to be inconsistency in terms of punishment. There are stories of people who commit horrible acts such as murder, yet god keeps giving them more chances. Then you have accounts such as this where people are killed for lying, which is something every human is guilty of. One other thing...I noticed that it does not specifically say that god killed them. Is it possible that they could have died of natural causes, such as a heart attack, or perhaps taken their own life?

Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 05:47:00 PM »
I think its because that church was flooded with Gods power and because they lied to the holy ghost, the holyness overwhelmed them and killed them, similar to how the ark of the covenant, if approached unworthily would kill, because of the holyness of God.

Offline Tony N

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 08:19:25 PM »
I guess I just struggle with what appears to be inconsistency in terms of punishment. There are stories of people who commit horrible acts such as murder, yet god keeps giving them more chances. Then you have accounts such as this where people are killed for lying, which is something every human is guilty of. One other thing...I noticed that it does not specifically say that god killed them. Is it possible that they could have died of natural causes, such as a heart attack, or perhaps taken their own life?

Look at the bolded part of the verses below:

1Co 11:29-32  For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord."  (30)  Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing."  (31)  For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged."  (32)  Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."

Being disciplined by the Lord in relation to "a considerable number are reposing" does not sound like they committed suicide.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2010, 10:05:26 PM »
1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, [did not commit murder ?]
he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. [God will forgive;it was asked of the man]
There is a sin unto death: [murder committed ?]
not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

1Jn 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Now that, I do not understand.....
Rom 6:23  for the wages of the sin is death
Rom 3:23  for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2010, 01:34:36 AM »
Try this on . . .sin that leads to death . .to me is an inward choice in an individual who has known light but has totally given themselves over to darkness.  This isn't a stumble, this is a life-style choice where they're no longer listening or caring what anyone else says . . .now once again, this can also lead you into "Define death" issue which, as I've always said, simply means a separation which in this case means God allows them to wander away from his presence, away from his covering and calling even. 

In the end, we have two trainers or teachers.  One is the Father, the other is the consequences we experience from our choices.  The question is then, which teacher would you prefer?  Love of the Father or separation from him?  Either way, this death is not eternal, it's death while living in this realm of death.  Twice dead.


Romans 1
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2010, 03:08:47 AM »
Well, there cannot be a sin of no forgiveness or as some call it an unpardonable sin, why? Well if or should there be one, then these two, and many other verses are in error and without value.

1Ti 2:3  for this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4  who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

And 1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

Eby, Prinzing, Smith, and others have wonderful teachings on this very subject.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2010, 03:22:45 AM »
I'm not sure what the overall message is about the unpardonable sin, but I do know that God is saying something like  this

"NO ONE -- MESSESS - WITH -- THE GHOST--"

"COMPRENDE"


 :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 03:41:01 AM by thinktank »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2010, 03:36:58 AM »
Not what you said. No. :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: 1 john 5:16 meaning?
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2010, 03:57:34 AM »
[quote author=thinktank link=topic=8280.msg97716#msg97716 date=127715096


Blasphemy against the son shall be forgiven, but he that blasphemes against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven, not in this life or the world to come

[/quote]

You mean this?

I quote this from the bible, look I know I sound like Jesus sometimes :laughing7: but I didn't write the bible, with further research we can look into this further and find out the truth. There is another verse that speaks similarity that says is in "danger of damnation" that says to me that there is room for forgiveness if one seeks it from him that forgives. I do not wish to lighten this sin for I respect God so we cannot treat this sin as something casual and that is why I quote that verse, more study is needed about this topic and even our belief in universal salvation cannot blind us to the truths of this passage or we could be in danger of tripping up our fellows and what excuse will we give God? Um but I thought you'd save everyone?
"Did I not state in my word..........."