Author Topic: YOU are Satan...  (Read 35221 times)

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trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #425 on: July 18, 2009, 04:10:55 AM »
AH. Ok, so I am glad we talked about that. Who decides the definition? Also, can you please discuss the seemingly two different definitions or meanings of "hades?"

I don't know of two different meanings for hades.  As for who decides the definitions, I suppose the definitions for the Greek words are up to ancient Greek Scholars.  But the important thing is that where-ever a Greek word appears it will have the same meaning - unlike English.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #426 on: July 18, 2009, 04:17:16 AM »
English is a perverse language.

I'm glad I never had to learn it.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #427 on: July 18, 2009, 04:31:55 AM »
An amalgam, perhaps, but perverse?

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #428 on: July 18, 2009, 04:40:21 AM »
I don't know of two different meanings for hades. 

Well, as far as I know, when a Greek person heard the word "hades" he might have have thought that the speaker would have meant "unseen" which, I believe, is derived from the parts "a" and "eides" NOT-PERCIEVED. Or, the speaker might be referring to the underworld after-life of Classical Greek literature. So how would the listener understand the usage of "hades?"

Quote
As for who decides the definitions, I suppose the definitions for the Greek words are up to ancient Greek Scholars. 

Why would it not up to the Greek speaker, at any given time, depending on context to determine intent? Do you not believe that Greek speakers personalized words? Do you have any linguistic scholarship that says that Greek speakers never did that?


Quote
But the important thing is that where-ever a Greek word appears it will have the same meaning - unlike English.

Who says? That is what I am getting at. I read through the Concordant piece you sent, and they didn't address WHY the meaning is same. They only said why they chose to TRANSLATE consistently. Consistent translation does not address the possible differences in context of the intended meaning of a word.

For example, in English, I could use the same word multiple times like "bad" and depending on my context you could derive my meaning based on what you think my intent is.

What I am asking is what leads you to believe this custom was absent in Ancient Greece? If you could provide a link about that, it would help.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 05:14:07 AM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #429 on: July 18, 2009, 04:46:13 AM »
Paul, if you think that meaning and definition are the same. Look at the definion of "meaning."

meaning
what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import: the three meanings of a word. 

The key factor there is "intention" not word parts. Meaning is derived from intention. So how do we establish what the speaker intends versus what the scholar declares?

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #430 on: July 18, 2009, 05:24:29 AM »
I don't know of two different meanings for hades. 

Well, as far as I know, when a Greek person heard the word "hades" he might have have thought that the speaker would have meant "unseen" which, I believe, is derived from the parts "a" and "eides" NOT-PERCIEVED. Or, the speaker might be referring to the underworld after-life of Classical Greek literature. So how would the listener understand the usage of "hades?"

Quote
As for who decides the definitions, I suppose the definitions for the Greek words are up to ancient Greek Scholars. 

Why would it not up to the Greek speaker, at any given time, depending on context to determine intent? Do you not believe that Greek speakers personalized words? Do you have any linguistic scholarship that says that Greek speakers never did that?


Quote
But the important thing is that where-ever a Greek word appears it will have the same meaning - unlike English.

Who says? That is what I am getting at. I read through the Concordant piece you sent, and they didn't address WHY the meaning is same. They only said why they chose to TRANSLATE consistently. Consistent translation does not address the possible differences in context of the intended meaning of a word.

For example, in English, I could use the same word multiple times like "bad" and depending on my context you could derive my meaning based on what you think my intent is.

What I am asking is what leads you to believe this custom was absent in Ancient Greece? If you could provide a link about that, it would help.



Seth, I only see one definition regarding hades.  Maybe you need to show two verses where you believe it means differently.   Regarding the different meanings, I don't think the article needs to go any further to explain why there is NOT multiple meanings for the same word.  I think those that read that will clearly understand that is just a component of the language.  I don't think anyone could attest to it unless it were written and explained by the founders of the language.  In other words that arguement is more like a red herring.  But your more than welcome to provide scholary content that shows that the Greeks used multiple meanings for their words.

Paul
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 05:28:02 AM by trettep »

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #431 on: July 18, 2009, 05:27:27 AM »
Paul, if you think that meaning and definition are the same. Look at the definion of "meaning."

meaning
what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import: the three meanings of a word. 

The key factor there is "intention" not word parts. Meaning is derived from intention. So how do we establish what the speaker intends versus what the scholar declares?

Seth, you asked me if I believe definition and meaning are the same:

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/definition

"statement of meaning"

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #432 on: July 18, 2009, 05:36:54 AM »


Seth, you asked me if I believe definition and meaning are the same:

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/definition

"statement of meaning"

Paul

Right. A STATEMENT. And meaning is the intention. So a definition is a statement of a word's intention. The problem is when intentions concerning a word change in the culture, counter to the statement, like how the stated meaning of "bad" was different from the street usage of it as intending to mean "good."
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 05:40:40 AM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #433 on: July 18, 2009, 05:39:45 AM »
In other words that arguement is more like a red herring.  But your more than welcome to provide scholary content that shows that the Greeks used multiple meanings for their words.

Paul

I am asking you though, if you have any scholarly content to show that they did not. The reason is that meaning rest on intention. To say that the intention is the same in every word is a bold assertion.

I believe the Bible uses "hades" as "unseen" but not because of it's parts, only because of content (namely its referrences to sheol). So I rely on the context and the overall teaching to know that the Classic Greek meaning of Hades as an underworld afterlife was not the intended meaning.

This, however, does not mean that "hades" cannot have multiple meanings in the Greek language if the speaker is talking about Hades.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #434 on: July 18, 2009, 05:49:57 AM »
An amalgam, perhaps, but perverse?

Except in the hands of a few--


1) He ate and   
drank the
  precious Words
His Spirit grew
robust

(2) He knew no more   
that he was poor;
Nor that his
frame was
  Dust

(3) He danced   
along the dingy
Days
And this Bequest
of Wings

(4) Was but a Book
What Liberty
A loosened Spirit
  brings

~ Emily Dickinson

Offline peacemaker

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #435 on: July 18, 2009, 06:03:42 AM »
Pneuma or pneumati

Pneumati-cally speaking, they are the same.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. 
For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.


peacemaker


Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #436 on: July 18, 2009, 06:59:14 AM »
Paul, I guess to simplify what I am asking is: how do we establish that in the Greek language words cannot have multiple meanings? What I got from the provided article was that the Concordant Publishing Concern took the word parts, interpreted meaning from the parts, picked a word and translated it consistently.

What I did not see was anything that proved, as a rule, that Greek words cannot have multiple meanings. Who made that rule?

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #437 on: July 18, 2009, 07:02:38 AM »
Satan seems to have been around today, I rebuke you (Satan) in the name of Jesus! Leave this thread!  No offence to those of you who think your Satan... :wink3:

Seriously, be nice!


Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #438 on: July 18, 2009, 08:03:50 AM »


Seth, you asked me if I believe definition and meaning are the same:

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/definition

"statement of meaning"

Paul

Right. A STATEMENT. And meaning is the intention. So a definition is a statement of a word's intention. The problem is when intentions concerning a word change in the culture, counter to the statement, like how the stated meaning of "bad" was different from the street usage of it as intending to mean "good."


I believe a definition is meaning.  Hope that is better.  Again, I understand the ancient Greek language to use a word it has the same meaning now matter where it is used.  You seem to be saying differently.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #439 on: July 18, 2009, 08:08:58 AM »
In other words that arguement is more like a red herring.  But your more than welcome to provide scholary content that shows that the Greeks used multiple meanings for their words.

Paul

I am asking you though, if you have any scholarly content to show that they did not. The reason is that meaning rest on intention. To say that the intention is the same in every word is a bold assertion.

I believe the Bible uses "hades" as "unseen" but not because of it's parts, only because of content (namely its referrences to sheol). So I rely on the context and the overall teaching to know that the Classic Greek meaning of Hades as an underworld afterlife was not the intended meaning.

This, however, does not mean that "hades" cannot have multiple meanings in the Greek language if the speaker is talking about Hades.

You have the complete Concordant Literal Version which was written by a scholar as I understand it.  The premise behind the Concordant Literal Version is that Concordant Method that I gave you the link to earlier.   

Again, regarding Hades, if you have two verses where you believe there is two different meanings for the same Greek word then go ahead and present it and we can discuss it.  I mean were discussing God's Word and teaching others about it so we BETTER get it right.   

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #440 on: July 18, 2009, 08:12:42 AM »
Paul, I guess to simplify what I am asking is: how do we establish that in the Greek language words cannot have multiple meanings? What I got from the provided article was that the Concordant Publishing Concern took the word parts, interpreted meaning from the parts, picked a word and translated it consistently.

What I did not see was anything that proved, as a rule, that Greek words cannot have multiple meanings. Who made that rule?

Seth, as I understood it - it was common knowledge between ancient Greek Scholars that words don't have multiple meanings.  I have read it a few times before but the only source I could come up with was the link I provided earlier.  But you can just present the sources you have that says otherwise if you like.  The amount of time were spending on this seems to indicate to me that these questions I have asked you have gotten you thinking which is what I hoped.  The more discussion around this should be beneficial.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #441 on: July 18, 2009, 09:18:12 AM »
Quote
it was common knowledge between ancient Greek Scholars that words don't have multiple meanings.

Then how do we explain the evolution of Hades?


Again, regarding Hades, if you have two verses where you believe there is two different meanings for the same Greek word then go ahead and present it and we can discuss it.  I mean were discussing God's Word and teaching others about it so we BETTER get it right.   

Here is the rub though, Paul: I believe there are multiple meanings (at least two) of "hades" in the Greek language. That much is obvious. Like you, however, I believe only one is being employed in the Bible. But in order to reach that conclusion, I rely on the context.  What I am saying is that in the Greek language I see that indeed there can be more than one meaning of a word and Paul chose one that fit the Hebrew concept of "sheol."

From my estimation, translating words consistenty simply allows for necessary interpretation of meaning. For example the word "lamb" if translated consistently, still yields different meanings based on context. In the case of "the lamb of God" we understand "lamb" to refer to Jesus. However, even if translated consistently, lamb may also mean a four legged beast.

We still need to distinguish between strict and implied meanings.


Quote
I believe a definition is meaning.  Hope that is better.  Again, I understand the ancient Greek language to use a word it has the same meaning now matter where it is used.  You seem to be saying differently.

Well, what I am saying is that in most cultures, the meaning of words is not as concrete as you seem to believe. Words often evolve, based on usage, and sometimes people actually subvert the stated meaning of a word.

Do you believe contextual analysis is important to understand nuances in meaning from words used in a given text?

Quote
The amount of time were spending on this seems to indicate to me that these questions I have asked you have gotten you thinking which is what I hoped.

It's a fascinating topic for sure. You said that it was common knowledge among Greek Scholars that words do not have multiple meanings. I would wonder about that. I have never heard that.

I have always heard that words in any language have both strict and implied meanings and that language is not concrete across time, region, and culture.

Can I ask, do you believe that "spirit" is a good translation of "pneuma?"





« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:09:12 AM by Seth »

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #442 on: July 18, 2009, 05:19:20 PM »
Quote
it was common knowledge between ancient Greek Scholars that words don't have multiple meanings.

Then how do we explain the evolution of Hades?


Again, regarding Hades, if you have two verses where you believe there is two different meanings for the same Greek word then go ahead and present it and we can discuss it.  I mean were discussing God's Word and teaching others about it so we BETTER get it right.   

Here is the rub though, Paul: I believe there are multiple meanings (at least two) of "hades" in the Greek language. That much is obvious. Like you, however, I believe only one is being employed in the Bible. But in order to reach that conclusion, I rely on the context.  What I am saying is that in the Greek language I see that indeed there can be more than one meaning of a word and Paul chose one that fit the Hebrew concept of "sheol."

From my estimation, translating words consistenty simply allows for necessary interpretation of meaning. For example the word "lamb" if translated consistently, still yields different meanings based on context. In the case of "the lamb of God" we understand "lamb" to refer to Jesus. However, even if translated consistently, lamb may also mean a four legged beast.

We still need to distinguish between strict and implied meanings.


Quote
I believe a definition is meaning.  Hope that is better.  Again, I understand the ancient Greek language to use a word it has the same meaning now matter where it is used.  You seem to be saying differently.

Well, what I am saying is that in most cultures, the meaning of words is not as concrete as you seem to believe. Words often evolve, based on usage, and sometimes people actually subvert the stated meaning of a word.

Do you believe contextual analysis is important to understand nuances in meaning from words used in a given text?

Quote
The amount of time were spending on this seems to indicate to me that these questions I have asked you have gotten you thinking which is what I hoped.

It's a fascinating topic for sure. You said that it was common knowledge among Greek Scholars that words do not have multiple meanings. I would wonder about that. I have never heard that.

I have always heard that words in any language have both strict and implied meanings and that language is not concrete across time, region, and culture.

Can I ask, do you believe that "spirit" is a good translation of "pneuma?"


Ok, Seth, then you believe ancient Greek words have multiple meanings.  Then we can discuss this topic from that standpoint.  I only brought up the concordant method because you asked me why I said that "spirit" in the verse was the same in both instances.  So now we have covered why I believe "spirit" is the same in each part of the verse, let's get back to the original question I had.  In that you would supply definitions for each word Spirit in that SPECIFIC verse.  Also, I have no problem with "spirit" as a translation of pneuma. 

Paul

Offline sheila

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #443 on: July 18, 2009, 08:25:19 PM »
 we do greater 'works' than HIM in this way...

  they are greater 'works' of faith because He was without sin

  in His flesh, and we are not.We give out of our lack..He gives

out of the spirit without measure...we have a measure..and

must give that measure out of our lack.ALL WE HAVE...though it

 be a piddling in appearance.  But those poor in spirit He made

 RICH IN FAITH....AND IT IS ALL ACCOMPLISHED IN FAITH

 

  He explained these things in the parable about that poor

 widow....she give all she had, her only means of living...

  we have a token to give at this time...and in the eyes of God

it is not despised...IT IS A GREATER WORK IN HIS EYES.


   As far as YOU are Satan,hogwash! these doctrines of demons

need to be cast out into the swine flesh it is, so the whole herd

 can rush down the steep bank and die in the water.

    Luke 15;15  so he went and hired himself out to a citizen of

that country[the world?] who sent him to the feilds to feed the

 pigs. HE LONGED TO FILL HIS STOMACH with the pods that the

 pigs were eating,but no one gave him anything.

  Prodigals are still sons..though they crave pods meant for

 swine.

  Come to your senses!!Return to your Father!You don't have to

 eat this garbage!

   Matthew 7;6  Do not give dogs what is sacred,do not throw

 your pearls to pigs

  Isaaih 65;4 who sit among the graves,and spend their night

 keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs,and whose pots

 hold broth of unclean meat.

  v 13  My servants will eat,but you will go hungry

  My servants will drink,but you will go thirsty

  My servants will rejoice,but you will be put to shame

  v 15 You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse,

  the Sovereign Lord will put you to death

  Numbers 5;27 IF she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to

 her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that

 brings a curse,it will go into her and cause bitter suffering;

her abdomen will swell[god is your belly/you shall crawl on your

 belly]and her thigh waste away,and she will become accursed

among her people[Mt25;41 depart from me,you who are cursed]

   If,however the woman has not defiled herself and is free from

impurity,she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have

 children. 1 Timothy 2;15  But women will be saved through

child-bearing- if they continue in faith,love and holiness with

propriety

   The water that brings the curse is the LAW OF

    JEALOUSY...cursed is

anything that hangs on a tree[serpent in tokogae] through the

 commandment[LAW] But sin seizing the opportunity afforded

 by the commandment,produced in me every kind of covetous

 desire.

   For LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT'S JEALOUSY AS

  UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE

  IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE

  LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME

 MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE

 RIVERS CAN NOT WASH IT AWAY[Rev 12;15]

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #444 on: July 18, 2009, 09:24:09 PM »
we do greater 'works' than HIM in this way...

  they are greater 'works' of faith because He was without sin

  in His flesh, and we are not.We give out of our lack..He gives

out of the spirit without measure...we have a measure..and

must give that measure out of our lack.ALL WE HAVE...though it

 be a piddling in appearance.  But those poor in spirit He made

 RICH IN FAITH....AND IT IS ALL ACCOMPLISHED IN FAITH

 

  He explained these things in the parable about that poor

 widow....she give all she had, her only means of living...

  we have a token to give at this time...and in the eyes of God

it is not despised...IT IS A GREATER WORK IN HIS EYES.


   As far as YOU are Satan,hogwash! these doctrines of demons

need to be cast out into the swine flesh it is, so the whole herd

 can rush down the steep bank and die in the water.

    Luke 15;15  so he went and hired himself out to a citizen of

that country[the world?] who sent him to the feilds to feed the

 pigs. HE LONGED TO FILL HIS STOMACH with the pods that the

 pigs were eating,but no one gave him anything.

  Prodigals are still sons..though they crave pods meant for

 swine.

  Come to your senses!!Return to your Father!You don't have to

 eat this garbage!

   Matthew 7;6  Do not give dogs what is sacred,do not throw

 your pearls to pigs

  Isaaih 65;4 who sit among the graves,and spend their night

 keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs,and whose pots

 hold broth of unclean meat.

  v 13  My servants will eat,but you will go hungry

  My servants will drink,but you will go thirsty

  My servants will rejoice,but you will be put to shame

  v 15 You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse,

  the Sovereign Lord will put you to death

  Numbers 5;27 IF she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to

 her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that

 brings a curse,it will go into her and cause bitter suffering;

her abdomen will swell[god is your belly/you shall crawl on your

 belly]and her thigh waste away,and she will become accursed

among her people[Mt25;41 depart from me,you who are cursed]

   If,however the woman has not defiled herself and is free from

impurity,she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have

 children. 1 Timothy 2;15  But women will be saved through

child-bearing- if they continue in faith,love and holiness with

propriety

   The water that brings the curse is the LAW OF

    JEALOUSY...cursed is

anything that hangs on a tree[serpent in tokogae] through the

 commandment[LAW] But sin seizing the opportunity afforded

 by the commandment,produced in me every kind of covetous

 desire.

   For LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT'S JEALOUSY AS

  UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE

  IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE

  LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME

 MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE

 RIVERS CAN NOT WASH IT AWAY[Rev 12;15]

Sheila, there is ONLY one person that is saved and that is Jesus Christ.  Anyone else saved is only a member of His body.  That is the ONLY Spirit that gets saved.  It is the only Spirit that has Life.  All the rest of our spirits are being destroyed and why?  If Satan was the culprit and another person then WHY would our spirits need to be destroyed?  - answer is because WE are Satan.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #445 on: July 18, 2009, 09:47:59 PM »
I am not satan and my spirit is not going to be destroyed.  I will be strengthened by him, not destroyed, He is my salvation--

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.


My soul will be knitted together with his --


Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;


And, my nakedness covered with the royal robe of his Spirit--


Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #446 on: July 18, 2009, 10:46:20 PM »
I am not satan and my spirit is not going to be destroyed.  I will be strengthened by him, not destroyed, He is my salvation--

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.


My soul will be knitted together with his --


Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;


And, my nakedness covered with the royal robe of his Spirit--


Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Then this verse will not apply to you:

Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

See it says that a washing takes place.  It says that a REGENERATION takes place.  It shows that a RENEWING takes place.  For that to happen something must be disappearing.  That which is disappearing is OUR Satan.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #447 on: July 19, 2009, 06:07:02 AM »
Ok, Seth, then you believe ancient Greek words have multiple meanings.  Then we can discuss this topic from that standpoint.  I only brought up the concordant method because you asked me why I said that "spirit" in the verse was the same in both instances.  So now we have covered why I believe "spirit" is the same in each part of the verse, let's get back to the original question I had.  In that you would supply definitions for each word Spirit in that SPECIFIC verse.  Also, I have no problem with "spirit" as a translation of pneuma. 

Paul

Paul,
Just to be clear, I am not opposed to consistent translating. I actually admire the desire of the CPC to try to translate without bias. In my studies though, I have found that translating is pretty interpretive. Not only that, I just had never heard any language with single meanings for words. That is why I was so curious about how you came to that understanding.

In any case, I will say what I see in the verse. The verse itself is contained within statements that declare the "spirit of God" and the "spirit of Christ" to be within us, and able to put to deliver us from the flesh (to remove us from it). The Bible declares that Christ is a life giving spirit, Jesus said "I am the life" and that God is spirit.

The word pneuma, that is the STRICT meaning of that word, is breath, or blowing wind etc. It is invisible and to the Greeks, it contained what we need to survive. The implied meaning of pneuma, therefore is "life" and the Holy Spirit invisible power of life.

You mentioned that you believe that spirit is behavior. This in itself is an implied meaning which would probably be derived from "breath" or "blowing wind" in SOME way.  What is interesting to me about the verse is that it says "The Spirit itself."

The word "itself" is derived from the greek "auto" from which we derive "autonimous" which is to say "independantly self aware." The word "auto" is used to translate, in Mattew 3:4: Now John himself had a coat of camel hair

In John 16:13 we see the Holy Spirit referred to as "he." So if I were to use the CPC method of consistency, I can see the phrase this way "The Spirit himself, bears witness to our spirit..." The point being that the first spirit in the verse in question is autonomous, it is self aware.

However, the second spirit is not given the same "self" aspect. In the second "spirit" it bears witness with OUR spirit, the word "our" referring to our own autonomy as having a CHARACTERISTIC of "spirit." This would be the implied meaning of "life" again, but not with the self-awareness, rather the characterstic would be our essence. The essence of our lives would be as I had posted before: a principle that provades thought, feeling, and action (ie a kind spirit, or a mean spirit).

The very point of Christ being the visible image of the invisible God, is in that God REVEALS his righteousness to the world, through his children. God is invisible. We are visible.

So, in order to reveal his Glory in us, God corroberates, or "bears witness" with our spirit (thought, feeling, and action) as EVIDENCE that we are children. This is dependant on the life-change that occurs within us when the reception of the Holy Spirit puts to death our old selves, that we may "put on Christ."

That is why I interepret the verse as I do, but I am open to your interpretation.  :HeartThrob:

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #448 on: July 19, 2009, 06:15:37 AM »
I am not satan and my spirit is not going to be destroyed.  I will be strengthened by him, not destroyed, He is my salvation--

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.


My soul will be knitted together with his --


Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;


And, my nakedness covered with the royal robe of his Spirit--


Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Then this verse will not apply to you:

Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

See it says that a washing takes place.  It says that a REGENERATION takes place.  It shows that a RENEWING takes place.  For that to happen something must be disappearing.  That which is disappearing is OUR Satan.

Paul

Something isn't disappearing; something is being restored.


"regeneration"

G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #449 on: July 19, 2009, 05:22:28 PM »
Ok, Seth, then you believe ancient Greek words have multiple meanings.  Then we can discuss this topic from that standpoint.  I only brought up the concordant method because you asked me why I said that "spirit" in the verse was the same in both instances.  So now we have covered why I believe "spirit" is the same in each part of the verse, let's get back to the original question I had.  In that you would supply definitions for each word Spirit in that SPECIFIC verse.  Also, I have no problem with "spirit" as a translation of pneuma. 

Paul

Paul,
Just to be clear, I am not opposed to consistent translating. I actually admire the desire of the CPC to try to translate without bias. In my studies though, I have found that translating is pretty interpretive. Not only that, I just had never heard any language with single meanings for words. That is why I was so curious about how you came to that understanding.

In any case, I will say what I see in the verse. The verse itself is contained within statements that declare the "spirit of God" and the "spirit of Christ" to be within us, and able to put to deliver us from the flesh (to remove us from it). The Bible declares that Christ is a life giving spirit, Jesus said "I am the life" and that God is spirit.

The word pneuma, that is the STRICT meaning of that word, is breath, or blowing wind etc. It is invisible and to the Greeks, it contained what we need to survive. The implied meaning of pneuma, therefore is "life" and the Holy Spirit invisible power of life.

You mentioned that you believe that spirit is behavior. This in itself is an implied meaning which would probably be derived from "breath" or "blowing wind" in SOME way.  What is interesting to me about the verse is that it says "The Spirit itself."

The word "itself" is derived from the greek "auto" from which we derive "autonimous" which is to say "independantly self aware." The word "auto" is used to translate, in Mattew 3:4: Now John himself had a coat of camel hair

In John 16:13 we see the Holy Spirit referred to as "he." So if I were to use the CPC method of consistency, I can see the phrase this way "The Spirit himself, bears witness to our spirit..." The point being that the first spirit in the verse in question is autonomous, it is self aware.

However, the second spirit is not given the same "self" aspect. In the second "spirit" it bears witness with OUR spirit, the word "our" referring to our own autonomy as having a CHARACTERISTIC of "spirit." This would be the implied meaning of "life" again, but not with the self-awareness, rather the characterstic would be our essence. The essence of our lives would be as I had posted before: a principle that provades thought, feeling, and action (ie a kind spirit, or a mean spirit).

The very point of Christ being the visible image of the invisible God, is in that God REVEALS his righteousness to the world, through his children. God is invisible. We are visible.

So, in order to reveal his Glory in us, God corroberates, or "bears witness" with our spirit (thought, feeling, and action) as EVIDENCE that we are children. This is dependant on the life-change that occurs within us when the reception of the Holy Spirit puts to death our old selves, that we may "put on Christ."

That is why I interepret the verse as I do, but I am open to your interpretation.  :HeartThrob:

Seth, the Spirit (pneuma) is a wind.  A Word that comes out of your mouth is a WIND.  But it isn't just a wind it a wind that carries a message.   Consider now God, the Father in Heaven,  The Word that comes out of His Mouth is a WIND that carries a message, but His message is Him.  In other words when we say something it carries our opinion or our being, it is our perspective, our thoughts being expressed in Words which is a WIND that carries a message.  So God put His Word (message carrying His "being") into flesh (Jesus Christ).  See that message is the Words is Spirit.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

You see Jesus is telling us that to receive the Spirit we simply need to believe His Words.  "BELIEVING" is the spiritual equivalent of EATING by the flesh.  The flesh nourishes itself though eating food.  Jesus is bread of life.  We consume Him by BELIEVING His Words.  When we BELIEVE His Words we put on Christ (thus the Father since it is really the Father's being).  So it is no wonder we cry ABBA (Father) when we receive the Spirit.

Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

God even compared His spirit to the spirit that is in a man:

1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Notice we don't have a seperate being inside of us.  We are made in the image of God and thus we just like Him have a spirit inside us.  That Spirit that we have shall be destroyed by taking on His Spirit, our spirit become displaced (THIS IS CONVERSION).  See Conversion is the UNION of the Father's COMMUNICATION within us. (Communion).  It is where His being become our being.  And thus our spirit then becomes His Spirit and that is what is means by our spirit bearing witness with His Spirit that we are His Children.  Both will be the same spirit.

Paul