willieH: Hi Seth...
You Scripturally put "the cart before the horse" bro... The Scripture does NOT say "SIN [cart] produces [horse] LUST"... it SAYS:
James 1:14 ...and when LUST [horse] hath concieved, IT ... bringeth FORTH, ...[cart] SIN
Willie, actually the horse before the cart is "being carnal sold under sin." That is where it all starts. All men are carnal SOLD UNDER SIN. Jesus was without sin.
Sorry bro... but ALL MEN
, includes the MAN
... He was BORN of a SINFUL mother...
You have already noted that it is your belief that SIN is in the members... CHRIST
had human, fleshly members as do we...
One of our "members" is the MIND!
Notice that James does not say that Lust concieved brings forth sin IN OUR MEMBERS (limbs, body parts). Paul is very clear that the sin in our members is that which is at war with our minds, PRODUCING lust.
-- This actually makes me giggle a bit... It is the FLESHLY "members" which makes suggestion to the MIND "member", bro... My tummy is growling... suggesting to me (my mind) that it is TIME to FEED it...
The cart is still before the horse bro...
And James is clear that the lust produced by that sin, being "carnal and sold under sin" is what, siezed upon produces sin.
James does NOT put it that way Seth! YOU
put it that way! JAMES
says: "LUST brings forth SIN"... YOU
SAY: "SIN brings forth LUST that brings forth SIN"...
by Sin in the members, producing lust, concieved produces sin. Lust in our minds SHOWS that we are already sold under sin before we knew it.
YOUR "NATURAL MIND" is a MEMBER of YOU
Not just the "meat parts"... The NATURAL HEART of man is DESPARATELY Wicked -- Jer 17:9
Where you might be missing the point, is that CHRIST
had BOTH the mind of YHVH
, for the fullness of DIVINITY dwelt IN Him, and also He confessed to having a "WILL" of His own -- Luke 22:42
-- which, in this verse notes as TWO SEPARATE entities (His "will" and
GOD's "WILL") -- Not to mention He CONFESSED to being BOTH the SON of MAN
(with the mind of man - which Could be tempted) and SON of GOD (with the mind of GOD - which COULD NOT be tempted)
I believe you are creating your own vision of this to accomodate your belief bro... JESUS
had HUMAN FLESH... you cannot sidestep this FACT... And it is YOUR ARGUEMENT that SIN is IN the members of human flesh...
When one is converted to CHRIST
... one STILL remains either submitted or unsubmitted, for TWO dwell in each ONE... I live in me, and CHRIST
lives in me
(not just in my flesh)... and it is my REASONABLE service to sacrifice "MY WILL" in favor of the WILL of YHVH
-- Rom 12:1
-- which is what CHRIST
did, and which is what we must do in following Him.
As Paul clearly states:
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
This is speaking of a BELIEVER (Paul) who is NOW SUBMITTED to CHRIST
, and who is STILL at WAR with that which he has ALWAYS been at war... The only thing that has changed is WHICH VOICE he is listening to... CHRIST
(inward man) and the SPIRITUAL "WILL" of the FATHER, ...as opposed to formerly -- The VOICE of His MEMBERS and HIS NATURAL "WILL"...
SIN IS THE DOER OF SIN (unlawfulness)!
I think you misunderstand this whole scenario bro... The "I" that Paul is, is no longer the NATURAL man and "will", rather the "I" that Paul now is, is the SPIRITUAL man, which is CHRIST and the "WILL" of YHVH
If sin persists... it is the NATURAL portion of himself, which yet exists... and IS the "DOER" of the SIN... and CONFESSION of that SIN is due OF HIM -- 1 John 1:8-9
Let's see... If Peter & Paul are arguing, and Paul picks up a gun and shoots Peter... Who (sinfully) killed Peter, Seth?
...if you can't figure it out, I'll tell you -- PAUL killed Peter! NOT his "members"...
You fail to read the whole story bro... for PAUL at the end of this dissertation, notes:Rom 7:24
-- O wretched man, that ...I ---> AM...
How could He say this? He just said the SIN was no longer being DONE by Him?
I'll tell you why... Because regardless of our SPIRIT conversion... we remain IN the CARNAL... and SIN which occurs AFTER conversion, must be CONFESSED -- As John aptly notes about BELIEVERS:1 John 1:8
-- If we SAY that WE have NO SIN -- we DECIEVE ourselves, and the TRUTH is NOT -- in us.
And John counsels these BELIEVERS, who are SUBMITTED to JESUS -- yet STILL find SIN that is THEIRS to claim:1 John 1:9 If we CONFESS ...OUR... sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
This verse notes clear ownership of SIN to belong to the believer, and NOT to blame it on the BODY (members)... as if it is the BODY's fault the SIN took place... Please! REASON must accompany our conclusions or our conclusions are WITHOUT REASON...
When you go before GOD in judgment... are you going to blame your MEMBERS for your sin, Seth? Or will you "man-up" and offer REASON, and HUMILITY, and ACCOUNTABILITY to Him for what YOU
DID... (you AND your members
It is CLEAR that the BODY and MIND have to agree in order for SIN to occur... and IT must be CONFESSED as YOUR OWN, and not to give GOD -- "the body made me do it"
defense, ...which is every bit as weak as the "devil made me do it"
He just said so. Sin is the one producing the lust
That is what you see Seth, because that is what you wish
to see... the TRUTH is otherwise... YOU are still YOU... even though you are now ONE in agreement with the INWARD man (CHRIST)
... and your SINFUL self, shall surface from time to time, and CONFESSION is therefore in order...
when we want to do good. And if we want to do good, but do bad (by unlawfully lusting for women) then it is THE SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME that does it.
Give me a break bro... It is the Natural Mind (will) responding to the desires of the flesh, which brings forth this, not just your "members" alone.
The SIN that "dwells in men" is the combination of the NATURAL MIND and the NATURAL desires of the body, that compose the IMPRISONED WILL of man...
And the SIN that dwelleth in YOU is the Natural YOU
... and your CARNAL/Natural self... which fails to YIELD... and IS the cause and accountable person for the disobedience...
If you are YIELDED to the INWARD man (the WORD
) -- then SIN shall not occur... but as John notes so kindly in -- 1 John 2:1
-- this WILL occur, and GOD knows it shall, and He and His SON together have made the necessary method and availability to access the needed reconciliation...
That is exactly why Paul speaks of lust being produced by sin that is already in us, and comes alive when met with the law.
You continue to self-decieve bro... Paul and John BOTH taught that SIN which proceeds from us, are OUR
SINS... We cannot put the blame on the BODY and sidestep the real culprit -- in doing so we SELF DECIEVE -- 1 John 1:8
If you can't see it, you can't see it... Just as an ET'er won't see UR...
I certainly didn't overcomplicate bro, ...I just (in my own words) quoted the SCRIPTURAL order in which SIN comes FORTH... and you know it bro...
YOu shouldn't assume what I know or do not. Because if you are saying that I know what you say is true and am denying, you would be calling me a liar.
Calm down little brother... didn't mean to ruffle your feathers...
If you cannot recognize the order which you are presently viewing is NOT what Scripture notes... then it is the same STRONG VEILING which is cast over the eyes of Calvinists which cannot see that they are NOT the only ones which GOD shall SAVE...
We all have our individual pathways to walk, with much to learn... the important thing is to keep REASON within our hearts, as we continue to search for more... often, we all
hold on to things which should be "let go"...
Since learning of the Salvation of ALL MEN... the LORD has revealed an almost COMPLETELY different observation of what the Scriptures say... I am still learning DAILY... and am GLAD to make the changes...PEACE
is what the Scriptures are about... and more and more, I see that PEACE
in them... GOD of PEACE
, GOSPEL of PEACE
be unto you" ...is the wish of just about every letter salutation, beginning with it and at times ending with it... 2 John 3 -- 3 John 14 -- Jude 2 -- 2 Pet 1:2 -- 1 Pet 1:2 -- 1 Pet 5:14 -- Philemon 3 -- Titus 1:3 -- 1 Tom 1:2 -- 2 Thess 1:2 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- 1 Thess 1:1 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- Col 1:2 -- Phil 1:2 -- Eph 1:2 -- Eph 6:23 -- Gal 1:3 -- Gal 6:16 -- 2 Cor 1:2 -- 2 Cor 13:11 -- 1 Cor 1:2 -- Rom 1:7
Sorry bro, ... but as I read "your observation" of JESUS' temptation, ...He wasn't really "tempted" at ALL, ...AS... we are... Nor to the DEGREE we are tempted...
According to you: His "temptation" was a "walk in the park"... compared to the WAR in which we participate... He had NO real TUG at His integrity, nor did He have to WIN over EVIL... for He did not TRULY and ACTUALLY face it...
His temptation was in suffering death for us to bring reconciliation to the world.
...you jump from "temptation" and make IT the summary of His MISSION... Part
of His mission was to OVERCOME temptation... SUFFERING DEATH was taking that VICTORY, as well as His sufferings, ministry and fruit of all that, to and through DEATH, ...OVERCOMING, ...DEATH with LIFE...
The only reason we participate in a war is because we have not fully entered into God's.....now see this word....REST.
Jesus did overcome, the world. Sin was already overcome for him by God's rest. That is the example we are to follow by following Christ into that promised land, not in our own feeble struggles, but by GOD's HAND in our minds to change our former affections by his own choosing.
If this is your attempt at recognizing SOVEREIGNTY, then bless you, and I agree... the WHOLE schmeer
was already noted before it happened... so in terms of SOVEREIGNTY, ...it
as do ALL THINGS, occured at the notation of the ALMIGHTY, ...and the "OVERCOMING" was already a matter of FACT in ETERNITY and was accomplished before it began...
But concerning the CHRONLOGY of FINITE TIME... CHRIST was
are we in ALL POINTS... yet without SIN... LUST brings forth SIN, not the other way around...
Even your arguement that SIN exists in the members, still places CHRIST IN
You are welcome to remain where you are bro, and until God makes any change in that stance, ...are encouraged to do so... Part of FAITH is to stand up for it... but while you stand strong, ...remain a vessel into which MORE can be poured...
I speak to you in opposition having already traveled the road you travel (and I did hear you came "my way" and have changed since)...
That said, may GOD use either your words, my words, or neither... at His descretion, as others read our conversation! And may He change either of us down the pathway if indeed we need change according to His WILL and PURPOSE...