YOU are Satan...

[Molly]

Heb 10

5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:

    You did not want sacrifice and offering,

    but You prepared a body for Me.



He had a special body, half human, half divine, prepared for him by the Father.



Psalm 40

7Then said I, Behold, I come; in the volume of the book it is written of me;

    8 I delight to do Your will, O my God; yes, Your law is within my heart.

[jabcat]

BServ, I'm watching  .  If you do go fishin', come back.  I really do get a kick out of Peter's statement, following a lot of stress and things that had been happening.  In the KJV he says to the others, "I go a'fishing".  Love it!

I don't think this is an easy-to-understand topic...see my meanderings over the last few posts...we struggle, we pray, we fall/fail, God forgives, offers choices anew, we choose, we learn and grow, yet all the while God working all according to His will/directing our way...I think it's a process we only partly understand.  As with many others.  And if anyone acts like they do understand it all, for my money, be suspicious  .

Just us struggling with this topic now is part of THE struggle of our growing and learning, IMO.

[Molly]

He promises us the same body--

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their minds, even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding, and engrave them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Beloved Servant]

That's why Jab, I was reading Romans chapter 12.

 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

[Molly]

Yes, for now we all have parts of the whole--an earnest of the gift--

But, when the sons are made manifest, each will have the whole--a hologram--each part making up the body being the whole thing, complete in itself.



Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands...

[Seth]

lol, no.
 I was reading Romans 12

Can you explain in more detail the confusion that you have in the chapter?

I'll try to guess to see if I am close. You called out the "simplicity" mentioned in Romans 12. And you are asking why it doesn't seem simple in this thread? I think, if that is what you are referring to, then how I understand it is that the TRUTH is simple. However, UNDERSTANDING the truth takes work because we do not have perfect clarity in our human minds. This is why Paul says to "study to show thyselves approved of God." Coming to the simple truths takes some study and talk. You understand the simple truth of all being saved right? But for me, it took much study to ARRIVE at that simple truth, because my mind is not as cloud-free as God's mind is.

[Beloved Servant]

OK, well then, confused again.

Shouldn't the teaching be simple to understand?

Maybe I had a simple teacher when hearing of the salvation of all.

[Seth]

Simple to understand? Yes of course. But until you ARRIVE at the understanding...

That is why some people think that UR is hard to understand, until they have seen all the evidence. But once they see it: Surprise! It's simple!

Did you see how you had us read the entire chapter of Romans 12, then left it to us to disseminate that you were referring to simplicity? You were referring to simplicity, but causing us to work to get to your point.

Your point was about simplicity, but your method was round-about, so GETTING to the point was not as simple as after we arrived at it. It's the same thing with any truth of God. The truth is simple, but we must CONFORM OUR MINDS to it, and that is what takes the work.

[Beloved Servant]

... and we arrive there through faith.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Seth...

quick comment bro... 

We all must be careful not to be STIFF NECKED in our observations, for it is this type of stance which the JEWS took and caused them to be unable to accept the propositions of GRACE by CHRIST, and is also this "neck problem" keeps the "Christian" church, from accepting the Salvation of ALL... 

I expect to be delivered from the desire to sin, where 'not-sinning' isn't a fight, but a way of being. Even in this state I don't see myself never hearing inwardly an evil thought, but that those thoughts are just passing and stir no desire. It would just be a recognition within myself that the enemy is still trying but he has no place in me.

Well, by definition the lust in question that the law forbids is a desire.

No offense dear bro... but (IMO) you have far overcomplicated what actually took place concerning CHRIST... In order to have OVERCOME what WE DO NOT... He had to have been placed in the VERY SAME POSITION... That being, ...the point where NATURAL (lawful) "DESIRE" is beckoned to become UNNATURAL (unlawful)...

Desire (of itself) is NOT, ..."LUST"...  I mentioned it before, that NATURAL ATTRACTION between Male & Female, is NOT SIN (which CHRIST had to have had)... It is the UNNATURAL ATTRACTION between humans that is SIN... and which COMPROMISES our hearts...

The NATURAL attraction is a "DESIRE" and it was created within the LAW as GOOD... For GOD not only created, but also gave EVE to ADAM...    And claimed this as GOOD... For EVERYTHING He "made" was/is - GOOD -- Gen 1:31 (which also includes EVIL -- the creation of EVIL was "GOOD", because it's presence, in contrast and in part, defines GOOD)

The flesh BY NATURE has the "DESIRE" to EAT, as well as many other NATURAL "desires" which are LAWFUL... it is the TEMPTATION which was proposed to CHRIST of an UNLAWFUL NATURE that He OVERCAME, and DEFEATED.

ANY fleshly "desire" can transfer from LAWFULNESS into SINFULNESS (unlawfulness) -- GLUTTONY is the SINFUL practice of the LAWFUL creation of appetite... DRUNKENESS is the SINFUL practice of the LAWFUL creation of thirst... SLOTHFULNESS is the SINFUL practice of the LAWFUL creation of EXERCISE, ...etc

It is the INDULGENCE of IMPROPER "DESIRE" to engage something which is a TRANSGRESSION of LAW, that produces the "LUST" (desire) which "gives birth" to SIN...

It can occur to me, (I can THINK) to be LAZY (slothful), but because the thought occured to me is NOT SIN... for the equal and OPPOSITE thought of PRODUCTIVITY is also presented in the same MOMENT... It is the INDULGENCE of the UNLAWFUL presentation that LUST begins its journey in me...

Whenever one is presented with the VOICE of TEMPATION... the EQUAL VOICE of DENYING that TEMPTATION is also presented simulataneously...

Upon the fall of man, ...YHVH even noted that Eve's "DESIRE" would be unto her husband -- Gen 3:16 -- this is a NATURAL ATTRACTION... and NOT a LUST...

JESUS even recommended that ones "desires" be made known in prayer --  --

It is quite interesting that JESUS noted the words "desire and desired" which are commonly translated LUST, in conjunction with His own feelings:

Luke 22:15 --  and He said unto them, ...with DESIRE [#G1939] I have DESIRED [#G1937]  to eat this passover with you before I suffer...

That JESUS did NOT SIN, means that these "DESIRES" were NOT SINFUL... even though the words He used in this context, commonly refer to FORBIDDEN "longings"... 

What I see in this, is that we must view from GOD's vision of men, rather than our own, for it is via the NATURAL that our view proceeds, and can get intermingled with the SPIRITUAL...  In other words, the JEWS were so STIFFNECKED about the Scriptures that they do not see the RELAXATION within them... PEACE is the ETERNAL vision of GOD... and within DIVINE PEACE, are those who are experiencing the imprisonment of LUST, seen with the COMPASSIONATE eyes of LOVE...   

Too often in our observations and conversations with one another, we take a HARDENED -- "by the book" or "according to the TEXT" position, instead of knowing that GOD, in His intention to enable His Children to gain the "knowledge"... must bear suffering, and IN that suffering is His DIVINE COMPASSION and MERCY enabled and enacted... 

In summary... Neither the STAUNCH position of LUST=THIS versus LUST=THAT -- that any of us might (and in fact HAVE) engaged on either side of this convo...  in the final analysis, it's core probably contains portions of BOTH. 

I say this, because GOD created or revealed EVIL... and even though He is FOREVER GOOD, ...IN His creation of TIME.

He created or revealed what is OPPOSITE of Himself, that it might be availed to us WHAT and WHO He really is...  and for ALL, upon the conclusion of TIME, ...that JOY shall be ours Forever!  What a plan! 

...willieH 

[Seth]

Willie,
I don't see what I am seeing to be complicated at all. I see it very simply. Lust that produces sin is unlawful. Desiring to do good is not the same desire that leads to sin.

Simply put: Christ was without sin. Sin produces lusts which are contrary to God's Law. Christ was apart from that which produces lust contrary to God's law. That's simple

It is the INDULGENCE of IMPROPER "DESIRE" to engage something which is a TRANSGRESSION of LAW, that produces the "LUST" (desire) which "gives birth" to SIN...

And you say I overcomplicate? 

Lust (the improper desire) is against God's law. Desiring to do good is not. Sin produces all manner of lust contrary to God's law. Christ was without sin. No sin, no lust produced, no being drawn away by one's own lust to be enticed by it. Done. Very simple.

[Seth]

Sin in our members (the sin in me) produces lust. Lust seized upon produces sin. That's so very simple.

[Seth]

Does anyone know why God would outlaw something that comes so naturally to us? Maybe to deliver us from things we find so natural, but God sees as that which makes us incomplete.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Seth...

Willie,
I don't see what I am seeing to be complicated at all. I see it very simply. Lust that produces sin is unlawful. Desiring to do good is not the same desire that leads to sin.

Simply put: Christ was without sin. Sin produces lusts which are contrary to God's Law. Christ was apart from that which produces lust contrary to God's law. That's simple

   You Scripturally put "the cart before the horse" bro... The Scripture does NOT say "SIN [cart] produces [horse] LUST"... it SAYS:

James 1:14 ...and when LUST [horse] hath concieved, IT ... bringeth FORTH, ...[cart] SIN

It is the INDULGENCE of IMPROPER "DESIRE" to engage something which is a TRANSGRESSION of LAW, that produces the "LUST" (desire) which "gives birth" to SIN...

And you say I overcomplicate? 

   You had that hard of time understanding what I said?   

I certainly didn't overcomplicate bro, ...I just (in my own words) quoted the SCRIPTURAL order in which SIN comes FORTH... and you know it bro... you just do not wish to face the truth in it...   ...and that's okay with me...    But others need to recognize that the vision you presently hold, is a bit obscured (veiled) here...

MANY argue against CHRIST being a MAN as well... and thereby create an IDOL of Him, which CHRIST Himself refused to do -- Matt 19:17 -- Mark 10:18

Lust (the improper desire) is against God's law. Desiring to do good is not. Sin produces all manner of lust contrary to God's law. Christ was without sin. No sin, no lust produced, no being drawn away by one's own lust to be enticed by it. Done. Very simple.

You repeat an order (to the manifestation of SIN) contrary to Scripture...    "Sin [cart] produces all manner of lust [horse]"

Sorry bro, ... but as I read "your observation" of JESUS' temptation, ...He wasn't really "tempted" at ALL, ...AS... we are...  Nor to the DEGREE we are tempted...

According to you:  His "temptation" was a "walk in the park"... compared to the WAR in which we participate...  He had NO real TUG at His integrity, nor did He have to WIN over EVIL... for He did not TRULY and ACTUALLY face it...

Neither did HE OVERCOME, ...where... WE do not... 



...willieH 

[Beloved Servant]

So then WW,

If  may repeat my earlier post from this morning from whence came this present discussion:

Some topics, like this one, I seem to be able to understand the truth in Spirit but it gets somewhat convoluted to me when I see it in words.
So, here is where I get confused:
You need a desire for something to be tempted of it, right?
An example for me would be caviar, some love it so much they pay a high price for a small amount.
I find it repulsive, I simply can not be tempted by it.
So, when Jesus was tempted He must have also had the desire for what was brought before Him?

[Seth]

   You Scripturally put "the cart before the horse" bro... The Scripture does NOT say "SIN [cart] produces [horse] LUST"... it SAYS:

James 1:14 ...and when LUST [horse] hath concieved, IT ... bringeth FORTH, ...[cart] SIN

Willie, actually the horse before the cart is "being carnal sold under sin." That is where it all starts. All men are carnal SOLD UNDER SIN. Jesus was without sin. All men, apart from Christ are born into unlawfulness in their minds. The purpose of the LAW: to bring SIN to life within us and by producing lust within those who seek to obey the commandment: "do not lust." Then, sin becomes exeeding and is thereby revealed as sin.

Notice that James does not say that Lust concieved brings forth sin IN OUR MEMBERS (limbs, body parts). Paul is very clear that the sin in our members precedes lust - itself is contrary to God's law.

Clearly stated:

Romans 7
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

SIN IS THE DOER OF SIN (unlawfulness)! What does the law say: YOU SHALL NOT LUST. What does sin do? Produces lust.

He just said so. Sin is the one producing the lust, when do not want to lust. And if we want avoid lust, but still have lust then it is THE SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME that produces it. That is exactly why Paul speaks of lust being produced by sin that is already in us, and comes alive when met with the law.

Sin that is in the members cannot produce lust within one who is "not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in him."

I certainly didn't overcomplicate bro, ...I just (in my own words) quoted the SCRIPTURAL order in which SIN comes FORTH... and you know it bro...

YOu shouldn't assume what I know or do not. Because if you are saying that I know what you say is true and am denying, you would be calling me a liar. We were having a good conversation before so I hope it doesn't descend into that kind of thing.

Desire (of itself) is NOT, ..."LUST"... 

You are obfuscating lust. By definition epithumia is a desire for something. That is why, as even you pointed out: It is quite interesting that JESUS noted the words "desire and desired" which are commonly translated LUST, in conjunction with His own feelings.

Exactly. That is exactly my point. When the Law says: Do not lust/desire, it is saying do not improperly desire. That is why one seek to be delivered "from this body of death" that produces it. Sin in our members, this body of death, produces the desire.

Christ being without sin, unlawful desire could not be produced in him. That is exactly my point. Christ was not SUBJECTED to a body of death which produces those desires, because he was not in the flesh but in the Spirit.

You said: "It is the INDULGENCE of IMPROPER "DESIRE" to engage something which is a TRANSGRESSION of LAW, that produces the "LUST" (desire)"

You added the "indulgence" part even though you acknowledged that epithumia is a feeling and a desire in and of itself. The desire TO sin IS improper AND unlawful.

Sorry bro, ... but as I read "your observation" of JESUS' temptation, ...He wasn't really "tempted" at ALL, ...AS... we are...  Nor to the DEGREE we are tempted...

According to you:  His "temptation" was a "walk in the park"... compared to the WAR in which we participate...  He had NO real TUG at His integrity, nor did He have to WIN over EVIL... for He did not TRULY and ACTUALLY face it...

His temptation was in suffering death for us to bring reconciliation to the world.

The only reason we participate in a war is because we have not fully entered into God's.....now see this word....REST.

Jesus did overcome, the world. Sin was already overcome for him by God's rest. That is the example we are to follow by following Christ into that promised land, not in our own feeble struggles, but by GOD's HAND in our minds to change our former affections by his own choosing.

[Beloved Servant]

How can a house divided, stand?
When our Lord God Jesus Christ spoke, He never spoke more than a few hundred Words, and they were awed.
And often, at the end of a parable, He said: "Let those who have ears to hear..."
The parable was used, perhaps, not to teach the masses but to keep the deaf from hearing.
Each man in is own order.

[Seth]

How can a house divided, stand?
When our Lord God Jesus Christ spoke, He never spoke more than a few hundred Words, and they were awed.
And often, at the end of a parable, He said: "Let those who have ears to hear..."

Right dude. He spoke a few parables and they were just as blind as they ever were. Count the words of the Book of Romans. That's what Paul had to say about the Gospel.

[Seth]

t.
I find it repulsive, I simply can not be tempted by it.
So, when Jesus was tempted He must have also had the desire for what was brought before Him?

He was tempted by suffering death. Look at the context. When Paul mentions the "feeling of our infirmity, in all points tested/tempted like us" what does he say right after that? APART FROM SIN.

Jesus had no unlawful desire towards woman. Just having the desire is unlawful because God is going to deliver us from everything he convicted us for.

[Beloved Servant]

Seth, I love ya man.
And, you may be right in your teachings and they may edify others.
But as I read your words, I simply can not understand what it is you are trying to convey.
My point is, you are not the right teacher for me — that's all.

[Seth]

Seth, I love ya man.
And, you may be right in your teachings and they may edify others.
But as I read your words, I simply can not understand what it is you are trying to convey.
My point is, you are not the right teacher for me — that's all.

Well, I am not attempting to be your teacher. Just sharing what I believe. 

[claypot]

I think God would have us step back from Scripture once in a while and put the spirit of the message into words we are used to. God knew we would change and meanings of words would change as people continued on so this is how I see it..........

When a hot chick walked by Jesus I think He appreciated her 'hotness' while not lusting. He was probably much like Adam when Eve came along. Notice Eve is called Woman? Get it.....WOOOOOOO!!!!! MANNNN!!!! She could have been called Wowzer!!!!!! but no, Adam took one look and said "WOOO MAN!!!" I bet Eve was one hot babe.

So now, was Jesus tempted? I would think to be tempted a thought that is not appropriate would have to be presented to His mind like "Wouldn't you want to do the nasty with that hot chick?" Kind of like "You're hungry, turn the stones into bread."

With the stone bread, Jesus rejected the temptation and the temptor thus no sin evolved even though He was tempted just like us. So with the hot chick analogy, Jesus would have said something like "For one 'doing the nasty' is vulgar and two, having sex with a woman that God did not make you one with is a sin and three, calling women hot chicks and hot babes will get you in trouble with Me so scram, Satan."

Just my thoughts......

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Cute there CP.
But Jesus knew who He was; so much that one hot chick could not do it, neither could a hundred or a thousand.
Satan paraded before Him the same tempts that befell the first Adam.
But THIS time, the result is much different.

By His obedience He reconciled creation.

The first Adam failed (no surprise ), so God created a second Adam of Himself (the Word made Flesh); however not from the dust of the earth this time, but from the dust the creature.

Oh, the wonder of it!

[Seth]

With the stone bread, Jesus rejected the temptation and the temptor thus no sin evolved even though He was tempted just like us.

I agree with you.

I agree that Jesus was presented with proposition to sin. And I also agree that he did not feel the improper desire, which is lawlessness to God of itself. The proposition was rejected outright. That is why Jesus was not tempted of his own lusts, because he didn't have any. His mind was above his body.

 

[claypot]

Cute there CP.
But Jesus knew who He was; so much that one hot chick could not do it, neither could a hundred or a thousand.
Satan paraded before Him the same tempts that befell the first Adam.
But THIS time, the result is much different.

I agree. That is my point. Jesus did not walk through a church service type of world where all he would hear was 'praise the Lord' talk. He walked where He was going to hear and see things to tempt any real person. Jesus was tempted to by-pass the cross IMO yet He overcame even that with a 'Not My will but yours be done' attitude.

My point is, being tempted is not sin, giving in to temptation is a sin. Am I missing something here? Doesn't everyone agree with this? Being tempted does not mean we are weak in any way, giving in to it does. Jesus was not weak in any area.

cp