Author Topic: YOU are Satan...  (Read 33970 times)

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trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #200 on: July 07, 2009, 03:15:19 AM »
Quote
Wait, let's back up.  You haven't answered to James yet.  You have not yet told me why James says when lust conceives it brings forth sin.  You keep trying to tell me that lust is sin.  You have yet to explain why James had to say that lust BRINGS FORTH SIN.  You haven't told me why James doesn't call Lust itself sin.

James is not saying that lust comes first and sin comes second: According Romans 7:8 SIN WITHIN produces lust. If anything, sin within first produces lust, then lust conceived produces sin, and death is when sin slays us. Is lust sin of itself? I suppose it depends on how it is manifested: dead or alive? Lust to the one with the Spirit is dead and therfore not only not a sin, but not felt. But lust to the one without the spirit is alive, and is a committal of sin in the heart.

This is to say that  in response to your words: "when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity." and "I think bad thoughts so if Jesus is a man like me then He did to." The "thinking of bad thoughts" is when lust is seized upon and become sin, which is when the sin of lusting is alive to us. You say: "For our flesh has these urgings.  That is what flesh does.  It has urges and you make the wonderful point that if Jesus overcame then what did He overcome if not His own urges."

The urge after a woman is a sin committed in the heart already. If your mind is not in the flesh then lust is does not produce the sin of "bad thoughts" and therefore is dormant. But does the urge occur in the mind or the flesh? According to Romans 7, the struggle in our flesh is in the mind, and is when the law of sin in our members wars with the law of our mind. If our mind is not in our members but is in the Spirit, then the the war is ceased. This is why Christ was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and in all ways tempted like us .... here is the exception....without sin.


So what your saying Seth is that Jesus cannot sympathize with our feebleness in having lust in our hearts? 

Paul

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #201 on: July 07, 2009, 03:19:34 AM »
Through Christ I am not feeble at all.
I don't even like that word.
Now, I can do all.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #202 on: July 07, 2009, 03:26:52 AM »
Quote
So how do you know Evil without having Evil thoughts?

Paul

You don't have to have evil thoughts to know evil, just be able to discern good and evil and look around.

I'm not plotting all day long to steal everyone's last dime, but I know it's evil when I see it.


"to know"  good and evil

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing)


Ok, Molly so believe that Jesus can't have evil thoughts.  So you would agree that is unlike a man correct?  We can have evil thoughts, correct?

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #203 on: July 07, 2009, 03:29:51 AM »
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But nobody here says this.  Nobody I'm seeing here says that Christ was tempted BY SIN.  No, what people here are saying is that Jesus was tempted by lust just as James is saying.

The miscommunication is occurring by us not agreeing with where sin starts. SIN produces lust, what sin? The sin in our members. How does sin produce lust, by warring with our minds. Sin is the tempter because it creates the lust that tempts us. I should have been more clear about that.

What is necessary for Jesus to be tempted (drawn away of his own lust and enticed): That lust be present. What Paul called the "sin in me" is what produced lust in the first place. Christ being without sin, with a mind not in the flesh, could not be drawn away of his own lust and enticed because his mind was not at war with sin. His mind was not in the flesh at all.

James, pretty much tells us when sin starts in the verses that I quoted from James but you didn't like that understanding.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #204 on: July 07, 2009, 03:31:23 AM »
Through Christ I am not feeble at all.
I don't even like that word.
Now, I can do all.

So what about Jesus, could he be touched by our infirmaties?

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #205 on: July 07, 2009, 03:32:41 AM »
This one is for Seth and Molly:

Jesus said:

Mat 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Was the flesh in Jesus weak also?

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #206 on: July 07, 2009, 03:33:13 AM »
Quote
So how do you know Evil without having Evil thoughts?

Paul

You don't have to have evil thoughts to know evil, just be able to discern good and evil and look around.

I'm not plotting all day long to steal everyone's last dime, but I know it's evil when I see it.


"to know"  good and evil

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing)


Ok, Molly so believe that Jesus can't have evil thoughts.  So you would agree that is unlike a man correct?  We can have evil thoughts, correct?

Paul
Not if we stay in him--deliver me from evil--



God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted any more than you can take. But when you are tempted, God will give you a way out so that you can stand up under it.

--1 Cor 10:13

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #207 on: July 07, 2009, 03:34:21 AM »
Quote from: Pierac
Did Jesus' Body, Spirit and Soul stay dead? Peter tells us in 1 Peter 3:18, Christ's spirit was once made alive again. There is great significance to all this.

What Bible are you reading?  The King James says this--

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Peter 3:18

His body might be in the grave, but he's not.

The wages for sin is ?

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
When? After He was seated at the right hand of God? Or while his body was dead in a hole in the ground?  1Peter3:18 has no time line attached sister, You assume Jesus could only talk to the dead while he was dead, yet you say he was not dead?  Think about it.  :wink1:

Paul


As if they could kill the Spirit of God...

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

--John 10

How is he going to take his life up again if he doesn't exist to take it up again?

..the second man is the Lord from heaven


--1 Cor 15:47

Molly let's review John 10 in context of the whole New Testament!


John 10:17-18
 "I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

The argument is that Jesus is saying that he will raise himself, and since in other verses it says that God raised Jesus, then Jesus must be God.
First let me say that just plain common sense destroys this argument. The Bible is very clear that Jesus died. It does not say that part of him died, it says "Jesus died" (all of him). The Platonic argument that only his human side died is just that, Platonic(from Greek philosophy). Even if you believe that, if only part of him died, then he is not truly dead.

So if we say that Jesus raised himself, we then have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is not dead because he is alive enough to raise himself. So our only alternative is to say that the word of God is wrong when it says that Jesus died. So now we are in a position that says that the Bible is incorrect. This is ludicrous, the Bible is not wrong and it is utterly clear that Jesus died.

This also brings up the point that if Jesus is Almighty God, and God is immortal, how can you kill God?
Look at what the NAB has to says about this verse:
Footnote on Jn. 10:17-18:  "Power to take it up again"  contrasts the role of the Father as the efficient cause of the resurrection in Acts 2:24, 4:10 etc. Romans 1:4, 4:24.

Now let us see what this verse really means.
First the word here translated as "power" is exousia. It occurs just over 100 times, in a majority of these occurrences the RV translates it as "authority," and 10 times as "right."  It is not the common word for "power"  which is dunamis which means - power, strength, ability.

Both AV and RV translate exousia as "right,"  for instance, in Rev. 22:14:
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right (exousia) to the tree of life."
This obviously does not mean that obeying God's commands gives a man the phisical power to raise himself from the dead to immortality, but that he is thereby granted a right to it.

Even more to the point is Jn 1:12:
"But to those that did accept him he gave power (exousia, RV- right) to become children of God."
 
The AV margins gives "right or privilege."  Believers have been given the right or privilege of becoming children of God, they have not been given the power to become the children of God.

These passages above illustrate what Jesus meant when he said he had exousia the right to take up his life again after having laid it down in death.
As to who actually raised Jesus from the dead, the Scriptures leave not the slightest doubt. Time after time we are told that God raised him from the dead. Consider very particularly the record in Acts 2 for a clear understanding of the relation between Christ and God. Acts 2:22 states,
"Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN accredited by God to by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him."
It then says in verse 24,
"But God raised him up."

Then in verses 25-28 it speaks of the promise that God made to David.
"For David says of him: Because you (GOD) will not abandon my soul (Jesus) to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption."
Verse 30 -32 goes on to say on the same subject:

"But since he was a prophet (David) and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his thrown, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption. GOD RAISED THIS JESUS, of this we are all witnesses."
This next verse is about as clear as it can get:

Acts 10:40 This MAN God raised on the third day."

Here are a few more verses which all state that God raised Jesus from the dead. Please look them all up.

Acts 3:15   Ephesians 1:19-21   Heb. 13:20   Acts 13:30, 33, 34, 37  Acts 17:31 Rom. 6:4  2 Cor. 4:14  Gal. 1:1  Pt. 1:21

One thing to especially notice of John 10:17-18 is, it says:
"I have the power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

It will be remarkably noted that the very context of these verses quoted to support the Trinity are directly contrary to the all-powerful, co-equal, none greater or less theory. The Father gave his Son a commandment. This is not equality.

One last thing, let us look at another verse on the same subject to see even more clearly that Jesus did not say or mean that he would resurrect himself. We go to Mark 14:58:
"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple made with hands and within three days I will build another not made with hands."

If we insist that when Jesus says that he will build another temple that it means that he will resurrect himself, then when he says that he will destroy the temple, that has to mean that he will kill himself.

Did Jesus kill himself? No. Someone else did it. Did Jesus raise himself? No. Someone else did it, God. You cannot have it both ways. You must apply the same rule to both sides.


It is very clear who raised Jesus. Let us end this study with two verses.

Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Who glorified his servant? The God of Abraham, Jacob, the God of our ancestors. Do you interpret the verse above as if Jesus is the God of our ancestors? Of course not. Jesus is his servant.

Acts 5:30 "The God of our ancestors  raised Jesus."

So who raised Jesus?
A.   Jesus.
B.   The God of our ancestors.
C.   Obama, American's Messiah  (joke).
If you picked any answer but B you have not been paying attention.  :wink1:


Paul


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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #208 on: July 07, 2009, 03:36:31 AM »
Philippians 4:13
He lives in and through me.
I'm no longer my own.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #209 on: July 07, 2009, 03:39:08 AM »
Quote
So how do you know Evil without having Evil thoughts?

Paul

You don't have to have evil thoughts to know evil, just be able to discern good and evil and look around.

I'm not plotting all day long to steal everyone's last dime, but I know it's evil when I see it.


"to know"  good and evil

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing)


Ok, Molly so believe that Jesus can't have evil thoughts.  So you would agree that is unlike a man correct?  We can have evil thoughts, correct?

Paul
Not if we stay in him--deliver me from evil--




God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted any more than you can take. But when you are tempted, God will give you a way out so that you can stand up under it.

--1 Cor 10:13


So then by those conclusions you would say that Jesus was only made after the likeness of a righteous man, correct?

Paul

Offline sparrow

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #210 on: July 07, 2009, 03:41:04 AM »
Hi guys, this is slightly off-topic... but not really though.
Why do you all think that Jesus wept? (before he brought Lazarus back from the dead.)

Was he feeling the grief that WE feel when our loved ones pass over?

Why did he weep?

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks!
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #211 on: July 07, 2009, 03:42:34 AM »
Hi guys, this is slightly off-topic... but not really though.
Why do you all think that Jesus wept? (before he brought Lazarus back from the dead.)

Was he feeling the grief that WE feel when our loved ones pass over?

Why did he weep?

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks!
sparrow

Because He felt the grief of those that grieved for lazarus.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #212 on: July 07, 2009, 03:45:16 AM »
Here comes a suprise to Molly and Seth:

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sinful flesh.  Is this a mistake?  Could Jesus really have had flesh that was CAPABLE of SINNING?

Paul

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #213 on: July 07, 2009, 04:00:28 AM »
The flesh is the sin.
That's all.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #214 on: July 07, 2009, 04:02:01 AM »
He wept not for the death, but for the lack of life.

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #215 on: July 07, 2009, 04:02:41 AM »
Quote
Wait, let's back up.  You haven't answered to James yet.  You have not yet told me why James says when lust conceives it brings forth sin.  You keep trying to tell me that lust is sin.  You have yet to explain why James had to say that lust BRINGS FORTH SIN.  You haven't told me why James doesn't call Lust itself sin.

James is not saying that lust comes first and sin comes second: According Romans 7:8 SIN WITHIN produces lust. If anything, sin within first produces lust, then lust conceived produces sin, and death is when sin slays us. Is lust sin of itself? I suppose it depends on how it is manifested: dead or alive? Lust to the one with the Spirit is dead and therfore not only not a sin, but not felt. But lust to the one without the spirit is alive, and is a committal of sin in the heart.

This is to say that  in response to your words: "when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity." and "I think bad thoughts so if Jesus is a man like me then He did to." The "thinking of bad thoughts" is when lust is seized upon and become sin, which is when the sin of lusting is alive to us. You say: "For our flesh has these urgings.  That is what flesh does.  It has urges and you make the wonderful point that if Jesus overcame then what did He overcome if not His own urges."

The urge after a woman is a sin committed in the heart already. If your mind is not in the flesh then lust is does not produce the sin of "bad thoughts" and therefore is dormant. But does the urge occur in the mind or the flesh? According to Romans 7, the struggle in our flesh is in the mind, and is when the law of sin in our members wars with the law of our mind. If our mind is not in our members but is in the Spirit, then the the war is ceased. This is why Christ was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and in all ways tempted like us .... here is the exception....without sin.


So what your saying Seth is that Jesus cannot sympathize with our feebleness in having lust in our hearts? 

Paul

Can he sympathize? He can sympathize. He can have compassion regarding our feebleness in having lust in our hearts. He was tested and we are tested.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; IN THAT through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through FEAR OF DEATH were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Wherefore (SO THEN) in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


With what was Christ tested? With what are we tested?  Reference 1 Thessalonians 3. Christ was a partaker of flesh and blood, IN THAT (ie to the intent that) THROUGH DEATH he might destroy him who the power of death, the devil. Christ was made like unto his brothers in those ways. The problem you have is that you are not recognizing the exceptions provided in scripture.

If I say I ate "all apples" except the ones in Washington. You can't take "ate all apple" and say that I ate all apples in the world. There are many ways that Christ is not like his brothers, which I covered, and one of them is being WITHOUT SIN. Are YOU without sin? No? Well then you have one way that Christ is not like you. You have sin in your members. Christ was without sin.

Christ was made a partaker of flesh and blood so that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death. He meant to deliver them who through fear of death were subject to bondage. SO THEN in all things he was made to be like his brethren, concerning what he was just talking about: mortality and fear of death, not a carnal mind. He wasn't even talking about temptation of lust at all! At least apply the right temptation to the context. That is why he is able to make reconciliation to the people, because he was tested with the suffering of death, and he passed the test and died. It is by his death we are reconciled (Romans 5).

The reconciliation is not in that Christ felt lust and overcame it. It is in that he overcame the test of DEATH and now can succor them who are tested the same.

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #216 on: July 07, 2009, 04:04:05 AM »
Here comes a suprise to Molly and Seth:

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sinful flesh.  Is this a mistake?  Could Jesus really have had flesh that was CAPABLE of SINNING?

Paul

Yes he could have flesh. But not sin. The flesh is not capable of sinning. PEOPLE are capable of sinning. The flesh does nothing without agreement in the mind first. That is why it is the warring of the law of the mind, with the law of the sin in our members that produces lust. So he came in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and was also WITHOUT sin. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh but was not in the flesh because the Spirit of God was in him. Read the rest of the chapter.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #217 on: July 07, 2009, 04:20:51 AM »
Hi Paul,  You know I believe that no one on this earth or any other world could have laid a hand on Jesus unless he allowed it.  I consider him the most powerful being in the universe. He is the Creator of the universe. 

He hands himself over to satan to pay the ransom for me. 


He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
--Act 8:32


He did that for me.  He didn't have to do that.


Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


So, yes, he did lay his life down by choice, and the scripture says --


I have ....power to take it up again.

--John10


Ok let's look at it all--


"I have"


G2192
ἔχω
echō
ekh'-o
A primary verb (including an alternate form σχέω scheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition):



"power"
G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


"to take"

G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove])

 
Here is an important word which is translated as 'it'

"it"
G846
αὐτός
autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons


"again"
G3825
πάλιν
palin
pal'-in
Probably from the same as G3823 (through the idea of oscillatory repetition); (adverbially) anew, that is, (of place) back, (of time) once more, or (conjugationally) furthermore or on the other hand: - again.


That word autos is the base for our word, automatic, meaning by itself.  It means 'self.'


What he is saying then is ---Molly's translation---I hold the power to take back [my life] by myself.


And, this is Jesus the man talking.







Offline sparrow

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #218 on: July 07, 2009, 04:30:05 AM »
Hi guys, this is slightly off-topic... but not really though.
Why do you all think that Jesus wept? (before he brought Lazarus back from the dead.)

Was he feeling the grief that WE feel when our loved ones pass over?

Why did he weep?

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks!
sparrow

Because He felt the grief of those that grieved for lazarus.

Paul

That's what I've always thought, too.
It's very comforting to me that Jesus wept.
and even moreso that when Lazarus was raised, his family was overjoyed.
Some say there will be no reunion, our loved ones here will have no special meaning over there. I think this is wrong and I think it casts love into a lot of confusion and darkness.
Well, sorry to go off-topic, but since folks are talking about the human side of Jesus, etc. it just made me think of that.
thanks,
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #219 on: July 07, 2009, 04:46:11 AM »
Here comes a suprise to Molly and Seth:

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sinful flesh.  Is this a mistake?  Could Jesus really have had flesh that was CAPABLE of SINNING?

Paul

Yes he could have flesh. But not sin. The flesh is not capable of sinning. PEOPLE are capable of sinning. The flesh does nothing without agreement in the mind first. That is why it is the warring of the law of the mind, with the law of the sin in our members that produces lust. So he came in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and was also WITHOUT sin. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh but was not in the flesh because the Spirit of God was in him. Read the rest of the chapter.

Yes the flesh is our weakest link, so Jesus comes in the resemblence [likeness] of this flesh to condemn sin in the flesh--not us, sin.  That means, goodbye sin--


"condemn"

G2632
κατακρίνω
katakrinō
kat-ak-ree'-no
From G2596 and G2919; to judge against, that is, sentence: - condemn, damn.



55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


--1 Cor 15



trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #220 on: July 07, 2009, 04:50:05 AM »
Quote
Wait, let's back up.  You haven't answered to James yet.  You have not yet told me why James says when lust conceives it brings forth sin.  You keep trying to tell me that lust is sin.  You have yet to explain why James had to say that lust BRINGS FORTH SIN.  You haven't told me why James doesn't call Lust itself sin.

James is not saying that lust comes first and sin comes second: According Romans 7:8 SIN WITHIN produces lust. If anything, sin within first produces lust, then lust conceived produces sin, and death is when sin slays us. Is lust sin of itself? I suppose it depends on how it is manifested: dead or alive? Lust to the one with the Spirit is dead and therfore not only not a sin, but not felt. But lust to the one without the spirit is alive, and is a committal of sin in the heart.

This is to say that  in response to your words: "when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity." and "I think bad thoughts so if Jesus is a man like me then He did to." The "thinking of bad thoughts" is when lust is seized upon and become sin, which is when the sin of lusting is alive to us. You say: "For our flesh has these urgings.  That is what flesh does.  It has urges and you make the wonderful point that if Jesus overcame then what did He overcome if not His own urges."

The urge after a woman is a sin committed in the heart already. If your mind is not in the flesh then lust is does not produce the sin of "bad thoughts" and therefore is dormant. But does the urge occur in the mind or the flesh? According to Romans 7, the struggle in our flesh is in the mind, and is when the law of sin in our members wars with the law of our mind. If our mind is not in our members but is in the Spirit, then the the war is ceased. This is why Christ was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and in all ways tempted like us .... here is the exception....without sin.


So what your saying Seth is that Jesus cannot sympathize with our feebleness in having lust in our hearts? 

Paul

Can he sympathize? He can sympathize. He can have compassion regarding our feebleness in having lust in our hearts. He was tested and we are tested.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; IN THAT through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through FEAR OF DEATH were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Wherefore (SO THEN) in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


With what was Christ tested? With what are we tested?  Reference 1 Thessalonians 3. Christ was a partaker of flesh and blood, IN THAT (ie to the intent that) THROUGH DEATH he might destroy him who the power of death, the devil. Christ was made like unto his brothers in those ways. The problem you have is that you are not recognizing the exceptions provided in scripture.

If I say I ate "all apples" except the ones in Washington. You can't take "ate all apple" and say that I ate all apples in the world. There are many ways that Christ is not like his brothers, which I covered, and one of them is being WITHOUT SIN. Are YOU without sin? No? Well then you have one way that Christ is not like you. You have sin in your members. Christ was without sin.

Christ was made a partaker of flesh and blood so that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death. He meant to deliver them who through fear of death were subject to bondage. SO THEN in all things he was made to be like his brethren, concerning what he was just talking about: mortality and fear of death, not a carnal mind. He wasn't even talking about temptation of lust at all! At least apply the right temptation to the context. That is why he is able to make reconciliation to the people, because he was tested with the suffering of death, and he passed the test and died. It is by his death we are reconciled (Romans 5).

The reconciliation is not in that Christ felt lust and overcame it. It is in that he overcame the test of DEATH and now can succor them who are tested the same.

What we have established is that MY Jesus is one that is a man like I am.  Yours is NOT a man like you are - since you can have lust in your heart.  My Jesus was capable of sin. 

Paul

trettep

  • Guest
Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #221 on: July 07, 2009, 04:52:25 AM »
Here comes a suprise to Molly and Seth:

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sinful flesh.  Is this a mistake?  Could Jesus really have had flesh that was CAPABLE of SINNING?

Paul

Yes he could have flesh. But not sin. The flesh is not capable of sinning. PEOPLE are capable of sinning. The flesh does nothing without agreement in the mind first. That is why it is the warring of the law of the mind, with the law of the sin in our members that produces lust. So he came in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and was also WITHOUT sin. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh but was not in the flesh because the Spirit of God was in him. Read the rest of the chapter.

It says He came in the likeness of sinful flesh.  But you say flesh is not capable of sinning. 

Paul

trettep

  • Guest
Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #222 on: July 07, 2009, 04:54:55 AM »
Hi Paul,  You know I believe that no one on this earth or any other world could have laid a hand on Jesus unless he allowed it.  I consider him the most powerful being in the universe. He is the Creator of the universe. 

He hands himself over to satan to pay the ransom for me. 


He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
--Act 8:32


He did that for me.  He didn't have to do that.


Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


So, yes, he did lay his life down by choice, and the scripture says --


I have ....power to take it up again.

--John10


Ok let's look at it all--


"I have"


G2192
ἔχω
echō
ekh'-o
A primary verb (including an alternate form σχέω scheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition):



"power"
G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


"to take"

G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove])

 
Here is an important word which is translated as 'it'

"it"
G846
αὐτός
autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons


"again"
G3825
πάλιν
palin
pal'-in
Probably from the same as G3823 (through the idea of oscillatory repetition); (adverbially) anew, that is, (of place) back, (of time) once more, or (conjugationally) furthermore or on the other hand: - again.


That word autos is the base for our word, automatic, meaning by itself.  It means 'self.'


What he is saying then is ---Molly's translation---I hold the power to take back [my life] by myself.


And, this is Jesus the man talking.








But don't you see Molly, isn't the Jesus I'm proclaiming much more of a man then yours?  The one I'm proclaiming could have lust in His heart but not allow it to bring forth sin.  The Jesus I'm proclaiming never sinned but was in every way (and more so) tempted then I am and yet is as much as a man as I am.

Paul

trettep

  • Guest
Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #223 on: July 07, 2009, 04:56:41 AM »
Hi guys, this is slightly off-topic... but not really though.
Why do you all think that Jesus wept? (before he brought Lazarus back from the dead.)

Was he feeling the grief that WE feel when our loved ones pass over?

Why did he weep?

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks!
sparrow

Because He felt the grief of those that grieved for lazarus.

Paul

That's what I've always thought, too.
It's very comforting to me that Jesus wept.
and even moreso that when Lazarus was raised, his family was overjoyed.
Some say there will be no reunion, our loved ones here will have no special meaning over there. I think this is wrong and I think it casts love into a lot of confusion and darkness.
Well, sorry to go off-topic, but since folks are talking about the human side of Jesus, etc. it just made me think of that.
thanks,
sparrow

No problem Sparrow, I see the connection and don't believe it is a diversion because of the way you put it.

Paul

trettep

  • Guest
Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #224 on: July 07, 2009, 04:59:58 AM »
Here comes a suprise to Molly and Seth:

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sinful flesh.  Is this a mistake?  Could Jesus really have had flesh that was CAPABLE of SINNING?

Paul

Yes he could have flesh. But not sin. The flesh is not capable of sinning. PEOPLE are capable of sinning. The flesh does nothing without agreement in the mind first. That is why it is the warring of the law of the mind, with the law of the sin in our members that produces lust. So he came in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and was also WITHOUT sin. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh but was not in the flesh because the Spirit of God was in him. Read the rest of the chapter.

Yes the flesh is our weakest link, so Jesus comes in the resemblence [likeness] of this flesh to condemn sin in the flesh--not us, sin.  That means, goodbye sin--


"condemn"

G2632
κατακρίνω
katakrinō
kat-ak-ree'-no
From G2596 and G2919; to judge against, that is, sentence: - condemn, damn.



55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


--1 Cor 15




But doesn't "likeness" mean the "same type of" which would mean that Jesus had sinful flesh?

Paul