willieH: Hi brother S...
Before I continue our conversation, I would like to say that always it has been and IS a pleasure speaking with you. Even though we see this particular subject from different views, we are able to maintain respect for one another... I really appreciate this... I go to another forum, where hardly a post goes by without someone dissing what I said, instead of presenting their opposing viewpoint... Nice talkin with you my brother!
May I interrupt this for a moment -- mm-kay?
LOL, mm-kay? That was funny. You have always had a good sense of humor.
GOD ordains EVERYTHING... JESUS "not sinning" is as ordained as PHARAOH not letting the children GO...
We are actually LIVING parts of YHVH... and He is about revealing to the BODY, what the HEAD has ALWAYS KNOWN -- Good and Evil...
JESUS as the SON of GOD, had the DIVINE nature... but as the SON of MAN, He NATURALLY had the NATURE of MAN... which means that the proposals of the FLESH would arise in Him, and it is over those proposals that He OVERCAME... (which by the way was ORDAINED before it occured -- Rev 13:8)
That Christ was the son of Man does NOT in any way necessitate that sinful desires in his MIND would occur.
I have not suggested that CHRIST
entertained SIN in His mind... I have continually stated that TEMPTATION was proposed to HIM, as it is proposed to US... via the NATURE of the FLESH, and in the mind which is LEARNING
The reason is that having the Divine Nature is what is responsible from RESTING from sinful desires not of our personal struggle. Christ's emotional struggle dealt with fear of death, which is the very context when the NT deals with Christ's likeness to us.
Though I did not address this when you said it earlier, I will now -- I do not believe that CHRIST
"feared death"... it is an assumption to deduce that FEAR was present in Him... I more view CHRIST
, having been given "pre-vision" of the TORMENT that He was to endure on the WAY to that DEATH... was that "cup" which He prayed might be passed.
He knew He was going to be beaten, ridiculed, whipped, etc... and as one might easily agree, this is hardly something one would be "looking forward" to... I also believe that He was completely confident that He would RISE from DEATH... so in that
, I do not see Him as "FEARING" death... (you are welcome to believe otherwise, guess we will find out for sure one day!)
However, Paul, concerning God's rest, is very clear to insert that Christ struggled emotionally, APART from sin. That is because the Gospel is consistent. Christ is our model to grow enough in the Spirit, that we do not struggle emotionally with sin, but rest always in God who IS our strength. Concerning the fear of death, it behooved God to make Christ like us in all things that he may overcome that fear and we may overcome the world as he did.
I don't find a great degree of disagreement with you here... As I said... I do not believe He struggled with fear of DEATH, I believe He struggled with the distaste for the TORTURE and PAIN that was coming...
CHRIST was "without sin" because He OVERCAME Temptation bro... If GOD made it IMPOSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then there is something IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... GOD still, even though He had ORDAINED CHRIST to be sin-less... included the actual OVERCOMING of TEMPTATION, for there is NOTHING that is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD...
John says that is is not possible for God to lie. It says God CANNOT lie. Hebrews 6:18 Titus 1:2
Nothing is impossible with God concerning the salvation of man. Christ was without sin, because he was WITHOUT sin, including sin in his mind and heart. That includes lust.
About IMPOSSIBLE... It is "impossible" for God to LIE because He is TRUTH... How can WHITE be BLACK? Even in this... GOD is ALMIGHTY... and NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE, except that which HE proposes to be so... The athiests ask -- "can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift?" And I say YES... for in the Creation of this "rock" He PURPOSES it to NOT be LIFTED
About the supposition that EVIL was not proposed to the mind of CHRIST
, ...That is YOUR POSITION of view bro, not mine... I believe that CHRIST
was a MAN, in EVERY WAY
that a MAN, ...IS
... to include enduring the proposals
of TEMPTATION in the FLESH... You are welcome to see it otherwise, and for the record, I spent many years (about 30) in the same mindset, that you presently hold...
I also spent 25 years believing either that HELL
would be the "end" of MANY... I KNOW better these days, ...and also KNOW that the belief I held (Hell or Annhilation
), though it was held IN SINCERITY, ...was short of the TRUTH...
You missed my point... teaching someone obedience does NOT accomplish it as you suggested in your post bro... Obedience is LEARNED through EXPERIENTIAL living... and in the NATURAL, unassisted by GOD, we shall FAIL every time, to OBEY...
Brother, I also think you missed my point.
:omg: BOY! ...we're just a couple of "point missers" aren't we?
The teacher in my example was me to show how obedience can be learned without disobedience being an issue. The referrence was to how Christ learned obedience through suffering the persecution of the world. Christ learned obedience not necessitating disobedience be present first. His sufferings taught him to GROW in obedience, not turn from disobedience. The example I gave was to show how that disobedience is NOT an automatic necessity for learning obedience. If God taught Christ to learn through suffering, he learned it in the same way that I would teach my child to do this or that without waiting for her to be disobedient.
Around the "rosey" do we "ring" eh?
...Obedience is just like any other principle presented in the wisdom of our Creator, Seth... The OPPOSITE of a concept plays a PIVOTAL PART in the definition of the PRINCIPLES and LAWS He presents! EVIL is the other side of a 2 edged sword... GOOD also stems from the SAME ROOT...
OBEDIENCE cannot be, without DISOBEDIENCE... The 2 are INSEPARABLE... One LIGHTS up understanding of the presence of the OTHER...
Only via the very SAME PRESENTATION to transgress the COMMAND of GOD... can OBEDIENCE be displayed in the face of DISOBEDIENCE... Both were done by MEN -- ADAM
=Disobedient to the COMMAND of GOD <!> CHRIST
=Obedient to the COMMAND of GOD -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- Rom 5:19
"satan" is a part of your Natural makeup as a human being Seth... it is the ability to "choose" to transgress the Command of God... No fantasy of a "red guy, with a flowing cape, a pitchfork in one hand, a sceptre in the other"... ordering the human race around like puppets...
Name me one instance where you have seen "him" Seth. Be honest. "satan" is the single LARGEST decieving element within Christianity which spends as much time on "him" as it does on God... When all along... IT is as much a part of YOU as your teeth or your arms & legs... IT is that which you DIE DAILY to... the YOU which is the OPPOSER of the Command of God, not some mythical imagined "devil"
Bro, I never said Satan was a red guy in a cape.
I was messin' witya... I realize that I am quite sarcastic about this myth...
Don't you see brother... This whole thing has grown into a WORLD WIDE mythology, which is ENJOYED by the WORLD? "satan" is an ICON in this world bro! He has the "spotlight" that rightly belongs to GOD, even in the RELIGION and THEOLOGY of Christianity!
I just see that satan is a general term which does not relegate it to being a single entity at all times. Anything and anyone can be an opposer.
Well... you have a pretty unique belief in this myth bro (no offense)... Most see "Him" as a "Him" not a "Them"... they just believe that "he" has innumerable "cronies" that "he" orders around... which is even MORE ridiculous. Where were these innumerable "demons" in the OT? Were they on vacation in the Bahamas?
Let's put it this way (forgive my facetiousness):
Does it make more sense for a car manufacturer to put "cig lighters" in their cars as part of their manufactured "makeup" or hire innumerable people to drive alongside them, with cigarette lighters in case the drivers of their cars, wanted to have a "smoke"?
Does my example sound RIDICULOUS? Of course it does... and THAT is the point... There are only 4 verses in the OT which mention "devils", and only 5 verses (outside of Job) that mention "satan"... Whattupwidat? Is this not a PIVOTAL TOPIC? Why does GOD pretty much IGNORE it?JESUS
did not come to present NEW problems... He came REPAIR OLD ONES...
If you examine the text closely Seth... you will SEE that JESUS was addressing "Peter's" agreement with MEN... and with the tainted WAYS of MEN, and not GOD... Re-read it for yourself:
Matt 16:23 -- but He turned and said unto Peter -- get thee behind Me "satan", thou are an offense unto Me, for [here it comes, bro, hope you get this!] ----> THOU SAVOREST NOT the THINGS that BE OF GOD, but THOSE that BE OF MEN -- such as the "THINGS" that Peter... had just spoken!!!
I think you are reading into that past what it really says. It says, UNTO PETER "Get behind me satan, YOU (Peter) are an offense unto me because YOU (Peter) savor not the things of of but of men. Peter is the satan because HIS DESIRES were in opposition to God.
This is another of the "God LOVES the sinner, but HATES the sin" variety bro...
It is NOT Peter who is distasteful to CHRIST
... as is DISPLAYED in the extremely close proximity of the CONTEXT which avails the GRAND notation that JESUS
would be giving Peter the KEYS to the Kingdom of HEAVEN...
It is this little set of WORDS which came OUT of Peter, that CHRIST
got "miffed" at... (if one is "miffed" are they in fact, "miffing"?
--- am I just "miffing" something here?
The offense to Jesus, Jesus said, was Peter himself because of his mindset, and that is what made Peter in opposition to the things of God.
Whatever brother S... Is not the "mindset" the words
he spoke? And in this "mindset" is Peter not showing his ignorance?
As I have said... the school of life has much to teach you in the coming years... and as it does... your dedication and heart toward God will bring you into a position which will be quite formidable in the understanding and teaching of the WORD
That said... there are things you have yet to gain in that process bro... and I do not in any way "dis" you for that... You WILL see one day, that "satan" is the portion of MAN which is found in his DISOBEDIENT and NATURAL will
, that must give way to the WILL of YHVH
No amount of preaching by either of us shall change the other Seth... Just like leaving behind ET, and the "trinity", ...have I left the Halloween character that most Christianity believes in... You are welcome to keep it...
When did I say I believed in the trinity? I don't believe in the trinity. You jumped to a conclusion about me. I am not talking about Christ as being a member of the trinity, I am talking about where his MINDSET was at.
I did not conclude you in any way, ...and was not speaking of YOU
Seth... sorry for the misunderstanding... I don't know what you believe concerning the "trinity"... so let's not get off the path on that one... mmkay?
...I was noting MY EXPERIENCE
... "have ...I... left
I was making known to you, things which ...I
... once believed and have since (through study, and seeking and LIVING), learned otherwise
... THAT is what the pathway of LIFE, is all about!
Contrary to Peter, Jesus's mind was in the bosom of his father. It isn't that Christ was a God separate and individually from his Father, or even equal to his father. It was that Christ thought it not robbery to be CONSIDERED equal to God (which the Bible also says). The reason for that is that Christ's MIND was kept by God and he was not in the flesh but in the Spirit.
I do not contest this... But in order for CHRIST
to OVERCOME, ...He had to have been faced with THAT which faces us... You are welcome to believe otherwise...CHRIST's
"equality" with GOD, was found in the fact that the ENTIRETY of YHVH
GOD was dwelling IN HIM... along with the MAN which was the SON of MAN...
I do not believe that JESUS was GOD... He was the SON of GOD... He even noted that He had a GOD -- -- GOD was not tempted, JESUS ...was! GOD is SPIRIT, ...JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6
Scripture notes it as you well know -- Heb 4:15
I don't know why you are bringing the trinity doctrine into this because it is definitely a strawman argument Willie. I love you bro, but you are way off track of what I am saying. I NEVER said that Jesus is God of his own nature. He thinks it not robbery to be CONSIDERED equal to God (Philippians 2:6-7), but I never said he IS God of his own nature. The reason he is CONSIDERED equal to God is by the fullness of God in him. That is why He is lower than His father, but higher than us. Still, I have no idea how this has anything to do with what I said.
My words were a reaction to yours bro, when you said:
It says he was tempted. And it says he was without sin. Do you agree that Man can tempt God? That is why it says "Do not tempt the Lord your God."
to which I replied:
I do not believe that JESUS was GOD... He was the SON of GOD... He even noted that He had a GOD -- Mark 15:34 -- Matt 27:46 -- GOD was not tempted, JESUS ...was! GOD is SPIRIT, ...JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6
Then you brought up Heb 3:8-10
which is a quote of Psalm 95:8-11
which is in reference to Ex 17:2-7
, which is NOT "TEMPTATION" to do EVIL and NOT the same manner of "TEMPTATION" that CHRIST
Sorry Seth, but this TEMPTATION of GOD is NOT the TEMPTATION of men... God noted that men TRIED Him by PROVOCATION... and DID recieve His anger because of it... they wandered for FORTY YEARS... instead of crossing over...
And the point being in that, is that temptation is an ACT of testing and trying. Christ was a man, but like unto us to the point of being apart from sin.
Testing or trying is done in many different contexts Seth... The mention you used of GOD being TEMPTED in Exodus, is NOT to do EVIL... it was "testing" which was PROVOCATION...
The TEMPTATION we are discussing here is that of the PRESENTATION of EVIL to MAN... and that "satan" is either the "presenter" as a being or the "presenter" as a PRINCIPALITY which is PART of the NATURAL Makeup of MAN...
YOU determine it an ACT, because YOU percieve it is presented by an EXTERNAL intelligence you wish to name as "satan"
I percieve and determine that it is a PART of the NATURAL and CREATED NATURE of Human beings, one of which was JESUS CHRIST
... and that NO "sentient" external being is necessary for TEMPTATION to propose itself to ANY MAN, including CHRIST
TEMPTATION is NOT... SIN. TEMPTATION is the INVITATION to SIN. CHRIST
was INVITED to do so... Whether by your perception of "satan" as a "being" or my perception of "satan" as the NATURAL WILL of MAN...
In any event, CHRIST
was INVITED to SIN... He refused. The INVITATION itself is NOT SIN... and that has been well discussed and documented by me in this convo several times...