Author Topic: YOU are Satan...  (Read 22275 times)

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Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #175 on: July 06, 2009, 10:13:53 PM »
There are steps: Sin committed in the heart = sinful desire/lust  >>> Lust conceived produces sin.

Sin producing sin. That is the death described in Romans 7. Sin producing all kinds of covetousness until it becomes exeeding sinful.

1}Tempted
2)drawn away of his own lust
3)enticed
4)conception
5)gives birth to sin
6)when finished gives birth to death.


You wouldn't believe the ridiculous problems people get into on lifetime tv because of a silly desire--murder,mayhem, life in prison, children's lives ruined, the whole ball of wax. :laughing7:

Our thoughts are very important--because, although people treat them as 'fantasy,'  they eventually will lead to action.

Right. Man is tempted WHEN he is "drawn away of his own lust." People who ignore the full scripture who say that Christ was tempted internally by sin, need to decide whether or not he was "drawn away by his own lust." If not then sin did not tempt him. Without the drawing away = no internal temptation. Christ could only be tempted by sin, if he was "drawn away with his own lust." Since lust is a sin in the heart, and Christ was apart from sin, sin could not tempt him because he was never drawn away BY lust. He was not a sinner in his heart to even have the desire.

The Bible says that The Spirit of God led Christ to the mount to be tested of the devil. When the devil tested him, is there any case made that the devil "drew Christ away of Christ's own lust and enticed Him?" NO. Jesus gave immediate answers from the Word. The only struggle we see was when Christ wrestled with his fear of death.

If "satan" is the carnal mind in this case, we must conclude that Christ's carnal mind (an unscriptural phrase) "drew him away of his own lust, and enticed him."

I see absolutely no indication of that. All indications I find in the scriptures (especially Hebrews 2 and 5) concerning Christ's likeness to our temptations have to do with "fear of death." When it comes to the "feeling of our infirmity" Paul rings in clear with the exception: "apart from sin."


« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:30:08 PM by Seth »

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #176 on: July 06, 2009, 10:50:00 PM »

Seth, that is only once the desire has conceived.  Did you not read the verse I posted?  

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?  Why didn't he just say lust is sin? Don't see that verse 14 is showing that "conceived" means when the lust has drawn one away and enticed them then it brings forth sin.  If you remove being drawn away and being enticed from lust then you don't have sin.  See how God's Word is refuting what your attempting to say.  You trying to make it out that the desire is sin which absolutely CONTRARY to what God's Word is showing here.

Paul

  

To understand what James is saying, understand where sin is FIRST according to Romans 7. SIN is in the flesh. It wars against the mind. That is what makes it lust.

The desire is a sin according to Christ. The desire itself is a committal in the heart. THEREFORE, when James says that when lust/desires (epithuma) has concieved (been seized upon) it brings FORTH SIN. And sin brings death. James does not say lust is sin, not because he is denying that it is, but because he is talking about when it comes forth.

Don't you know that sin can produce more sin?


Wait, let's back up.  You haven't answered to James yet.  You have not yet told me why James says when lust conceives it brings forth sin.  You keep trying to tell me that lust is sin.  You have yet to explain why James had to say that lust BRINGS FORTH SIN.  You haven't told me why James doesn't call Lust itself sin.

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #177 on: July 06, 2009, 10:54:16 PM »
willieH: Hi brother S... :hithere:

Before I continue our conversation, I would like to say that always it has been and IS a pleasure speaking with you.  Even though we see this particular subject from different views, we are able to maintain respect for one another... I really appreciate this... I go to another forum, where hardly a post goes by without someone dissing what I said, instead of presenting their opposing viewpoint... Nice talkin with you my brother!  :happygrin:

Quote from: willieH
May I interrupt this for a moment -- mm-kay?

LOL, mm-kay? That was funny. You have always had a good sense of humor.

 :laughing7:

Quote from: willieH
GOD ordains EVERYTHING... JESUS "not sinning" is as ordained as PHARAOH not letting the children GO...

We are actually LIVING parts of YHVH... and He is about revealing to the BODY, what the HEAD has ALWAYS KNOWN -- Good and Evil...

JESUS as the SON of GOD, had the DIVINE nature... but as the SON of MAN, He NATURALLY had the NATURE of MAN... which means that the proposals of the FLESH would arise in Him, and it is over those proposals that He OVERCAME... (which by the way was ORDAINED before it occured -- Rev 13:8)

That Christ was the son of Man does NOT in any way necessitate that sinful desires in his MIND would occur.

I have not suggested that CHRIST entertained SIN in His mind... I have continually stated that TEMPTATION was proposed to HIM, as it is proposed to US... via the NATURE of the FLESH, and in the mind which is LEARNING OBEDIENCE...

The reason is that having the Divine Nature is what is responsible from RESTING from sinful desires not of our personal struggle. Christ's emotional struggle dealt with fear of death, which is the very context when the NT deals with Christ's likeness to us.

Though I did not address this when you said it earlier, I will now -- I do not believe that CHRIST "feared death"... it is an assumption to deduce that FEAR was present in Him...  I more view CHRIST, having been given "pre-vision" of the TORMENT that He was to endure on the WAY to that DEATH... was that "cup" which He prayed might be passed.  

He knew He was going to be beaten, ridiculed, whipped, etc... and as one might easily agree, this is hardly something one would be "looking forward" to...  I also believe that He was completely confident that He would RISE from DEATH... so in that, I do not see Him as "FEARING" death... (you are welcome to believe otherwise, guess we will find out for sure one day!)

However, Paul, concerning God's rest, is very clear to insert that Christ struggled emotionally, APART from sin. That is because the Gospel is consistent. Christ is our model to grow enough in the Spirit, that we do not struggle emotionally with sin, but rest always in God who IS our strength. Concerning the fear of death, it behooved God to make Christ like us in all things that he may overcome that fear and we may overcome the world as he did.

I don't find a great degree of disagreement with you here... As I said... I do not believe He struggled with fear of DEATH, I believe He struggled with the distaste for the TORTURE and PAIN that was coming...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH
CHRIST was "without sin" because He OVERCAME Temptation bro... If GOD made it IMPOSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then there is something IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... GOD still, even though He had ORDAINED CHRIST to be sin-less... included the actual OVERCOMING of TEMPTATION, for there is NOTHING that is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD...

John says that is is not possible for God to lie. It says God CANNOT lie. Hebrews 6:18 Titus 1:2

Nothing is impossible with God concerning the salvation of man. Christ was without sin, because he was WITHOUT sin, including sin in his mind and heart. That includes lust.

About IMPOSSIBLE... It is "impossible" for God to LIE because He is TRUTH... How can WHITE be BLACK?  Even in this... GOD is ALMIGHTY... and NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE, except that which HE proposes to be so... The athiests ask -- "can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift?"  And I say YES... for in the Creation of this "rock" He PURPOSES it to NOT be LIFTED...

About the supposition that EVIL was not proposed to the mind of CHRIST, ...That is YOUR POSITION of view bro, not mine... I believe that CHRIST was a MAN, in EVERY WAY that a MAN, ...IS... to include enduring the proposals of TEMPTATION in the FLESH... You are welcome to see it otherwise, and for the record, I spent many years (about 30) in the same mindset, that you presently hold...  :shakepoint:

I also spent 25 years believing either that HELL or Annhilation would be the "end" of MANY... I KNOW better these days, ...and also KNOW that the belief I held (Hell or Annhilation), though it was held IN SINCERITY, ...was short of the TRUTH...  :nod:

Quote from: willieH
You missed my point... teaching someone obedience does NOT accomplish it as you suggested in your post bro...  Obedience is LEARNED through EXPERIENTIAL living... and in the NATURAL, unassisted by GOD, we shall FAIL every time, to OBEY...

Brother, I also think you missed my point.


:omg:  BOY! ...we're just a couple of "point missers" aren't we?  :pointlaugh: :laugh: (just kidn')  :wink1:

The teacher in my example was me to show how obedience can be learned without disobedience being an issue.  The referrence was to how Christ learned obedience through suffering the persecution of the world. Christ learned obedience not necessitating disobedience be present first.  His sufferings taught him to GROW in obedience, not turn from disobedience. The example I gave was to show how that disobedience is NOT an automatic necessity for learning obedience. If God taught Christ to learn through suffering, he learned it in the same way that I would teach my child to do this or that without waiting for her to be disobedient.

Around the "rosey" do we "ring" eh?  :laughing7: ...Obedience is just like any other principle presented in the wisdom of our Creator, Seth... The OPPOSITE of a concept plays a PIVOTAL PART in the definition of the PRINCIPLES and LAWS He presents!  EVIL is the other side of a 2 edged sword... GOOD also stems from the SAME ROOT...

OBEDIENCE cannot be, without DISOBEDIENCE... The 2 are INSEPARABLE... One LIGHTS up understanding of the presence of the OTHER...

Only via the very SAME PRESENTATION to transgress the COMMAND of GOD... can OBEDIENCE be displayed in the face of DISOBEDIENCE... Both were done by MEN --

ADAM=Disobedient to the COMMAND of GOD <!> CHRIST=Obedient to the COMMAND of GOD -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- Rom 5:19

Quote from: willieH
"satan" is a part of your Natural makeup as a human being Seth... it is the ability to "choose" to transgress the Command of God... No fantasy of a "red guy, with a flowing cape, a pitchfork in one hand, a sceptre in the other"...  ordering the human race around like puppets...  

Name me one instance where you have seen "him" Seth.  Be honest.  "satan" is the single LARGEST decieving element within Christianity which spends as much time on "him" as it does on God...  When all along... IT is as much a part of YOU as your teeth or your arms & legs... IT is that which you DIE DAILY to... the YOU which is the OPPOSER of the Command of God, not some mythical imagined "devil"  

Bro, I never said Satan was a red guy in a cape.

I was messin' witya... I realize that I am quite sarcastic about this myth...   :laughing7:

Don't you see brother... This whole thing has grown into a WORLD WIDE mythology, which is ENJOYED by the WORLD?  "satan" is an ICON in this world bro!  He has the "spotlight" that rightly belongs to GOD, even in the RELIGION and THEOLOGY of Christianity!

Quote
I just see that satan is a general term which does not relegate it to being a single entity at all times. Anything and anyone  can be an opposer.

Well... you have a pretty unique belief in this myth bro (no offense)... Most see "Him" as a "Him" not a "Them"... they just believe that "he" has innumerable "cronies" that "he" orders around... which is even MORE ridiculous.  Where were these innumerable "demons" in the OT?  Were they on vacation in the Bahamas?  :laughing7:

Let's put it this way  (forgive my facetiousness):

Does it make more sense for a car manufacturer to put "cig lighters" in their cars as part of their manufactured "makeup" or hire innumerable people to drive alongside them, with cigarette lighters in case the drivers of their cars, wanted to have a "smoke"? :dunno:

Does my example sound RIDICULOUS?  Of course it does... and THAT is the point...  There are only 4 verses in the OT which mention "devils", and only 5 verses (outside of Job) that mention "satan"...  Whattupwidat?  Is this not a PIVOTAL TOPIC?  Why does GOD pretty much IGNORE it?

JESUS did not come to present NEW problems... He came REPAIR OLD ONES...  

Quote from: willieH
If you examine the text closely Seth... you will SEE that JESUS was addressing "Peter's" agreement with MEN... and with the tainted WAYS of MEN, and not GOD... Re-read it for yourself:

Matt 16:23 -- but He turned and said unto Peter -- get thee behind Me "satan", thou are an offense unto Me, for [here it comes, bro, hope you get this!] ----> THOU SAVOREST NOT the THINGS that BE OF GOD, but THOSE that BE OF MEN -- such as the "THINGS" that Peter... had just spoken!!!

I think you are reading into that past what it really says. It says, UNTO PETER "Get behind me satan, YOU (Peter) are an offense unto me because YOU (Peter) savor not the things of of but of men. Peter is the satan because HIS DESIRES were in opposition to God.

This is another of the "God LOVES the sinner, but HATES the sin" variety bro... :nod:

It is NOT Peter who is distasteful to CHRIST... as is DISPLAYED in the extremely close proximity of the CONTEXT which avails the GRAND notation that JESUS would be giving Peter the KEYS to the Kingdom of HEAVEN...  :boogie:

It is this little set of WORDS which came OUT of Peter, that CHRIST got "miffed" at... (if one is "miffed" are they in fact, "miffing"?  :laughing7: --- am I just "miffing" something here?  :laughing7:)

The offense to Jesus, Jesus said, was Peter himself because of his mindset, and that is what made Peter in opposition to the things of God.

Whatever brother S... Is not the "mindset" the words he spoke?  And in this "mindset" is Peter not showing his ignorance?  

As I have said... the school of life has much to teach you in the coming years... and as it does... your dedication and heart toward God will bring you into a position which will be quite formidable in the understanding and teaching of the WORD.  

That said... there are things you have yet to gain in that process bro... and I do not in any way "dis" you for that...  You WILL see one day, that "satan" is the portion of MAN which is found in his DISOBEDIENT and NATURAL will, that must give way to the WILL of YHVH...

Quote from: willieH
No amount of preaching by either of us shall change the other Seth... Just like leaving behind ET, and the "trinity", ...have I left the Halloween character that most Christianity believes in... You are welcome to keep it...

When did I say I believed in the trinity? I don't believe in the trinity. You jumped to a conclusion about me. I am not talking about Christ as being a member of the trinity, I am talking about where his MINDSET was at.


I did not conclude you in any way, ...and was not speaking of YOU Seth... sorry for the misunderstanding... I don't know what you believe concerning the "trinity"... so let's not get off the path on that one... mmkay?  :laughing7: ...I was noting MY EXPERIENCE... "have ...I... left"

I was making known to you, things which ...I... once believed and have since (through study, and seeking and LIVING), learned otherwise... THAT is what the pathway of LIFE, is all about!

Contrary to Peter, Jesus's mind was in the bosom of his father. It isn't that Christ was a God separate and individually from his Father, or even equal to his father. It was that Christ thought it not robbery to be CONSIDERED equal to God (which the Bible also says). The reason for that is that Christ's MIND was kept by God and he was not in the flesh but in the Spirit.


I do not contest this... But in order for CHRIST to OVERCOME, ...He had to have been faced with THAT which faces us... You are welcome to believe otherwise...

CHRIST's "equality" with GOD, was found in the fact that the ENTIRETY of YHVH GOD was dwelling IN HIM... along with the MAN which was the SON of MAN...

Quote from: willieH
I do not believe that JESUS was GOD... He was the SON of GOD... He even noted that He had a GOD --  --  GOD was not tempted, JESUS ...was!  GOD is SPIRIT, ...JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6

Scripture notes it as you well know -- Heb 4:15

I don't know why you are bringing the trinity doctrine into this because it is definitely a strawman argument Willie. I love you bro, but you are way off track of what I am saying. I NEVER said that Jesus is God of his own nature. He thinks it not robbery to be CONSIDERED equal to God (Philippians 2:6-7), but I never said he IS God of his own nature. The reason he is CONSIDERED equal to God is by the fullness of God in him. That is why He is lower than His father, but higher than us. Still, I have no idea how this has anything to do with what I said.

My words were a reaction to yours bro, when you said:

It says he was tempted. And it says he was without sin. Do you agree that Man can tempt God? That is why it says "Do not tempt the Lord your God."

to which I replied:

Quote from: willieH
I do not believe that JESUS was GOD... He was the SON of GOD... He even noted that He had a GOD -- Mark 15:34 -- Matt 27:46 --  GOD was not tempted, JESUS ...was!  GOD is SPIRIT, ...JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6

Then you brought up Heb 3:8-10 which is a quote of Psalm 95:8-11 which is in reference to Ex 17:2-7, which is NOT "TEMPTATION" to do EVIL and NOT the same manner of "TEMPTATION" that CHRIST OVERCAME!  :heat:

Quote from: willieH
Sorry Seth, but this TEMPTATION of GOD is NOT the TEMPTATION of men...  God noted that men TRIED Him by PROVOCATION... and DID recieve His anger because of it... they wandered for FORTY YEARS... instead of crossing over...

And the point being in that, is that temptation is an ACT of testing and trying. Christ was a man, but like unto us to the point of being apart from sin.

Testing or trying is done in many different contexts Seth... The mention you used of GOD being TEMPTED in Exodus, is NOT to do EVIL... it was "testing" which was PROVOCATION...

The TEMPTATION we are discussing here is that of the PRESENTATION of EVIL to MAN... and that "satan" is either the "presenter" as a being or the "presenter" as a PRINCIPALITY which is PART of the NATURAL Makeup of MAN...

YOU determine it an ACT, because YOU percieve it is presented by an EXTERNAL intelligence you wish to name as "satan"

I percieve and determine that it is a PART of the NATURAL and CREATED NATURE of Human beings, one of which was JESUS CHRIST... and that NO "sentient" external being is necessary for TEMPTATION to propose itself to ANY MAN, including CHRIST...

TEMPTATION is NOT... SIN.   TEMPTATION is the INVITATION to SIN.  CHRIST was INVITED to do so... Whether by your perception of "satan" as a "being" or my perception of "satan" as the NATURAL WILL of MAN...

In any event, CHRIST was INVITED to SIN... He refused.  The INVITATION itself is NOT SIN... and that has been well discussed and documented by me in this convo several times...

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 11:52:11 PM by willieH »

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #178 on: July 06, 2009, 10:56:12 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?

Exactly.


Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



"conceived"

G4815
συλλαμβάνω
sullambanō
sool-lam-ban'-o
From G4862 and G2983; to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.


What starts out as a longing or a desire becomes a prison cell with a life sentence.  It's a different seed that is conceiving with our own desire, bringing forth a bitter fruit--sin unto death.



Yes, Molly, your seeing it!  This is what Jesus was able to do.  He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him, and those originated within Him and yet He didn't let them draw Him away and entice Him and thus those thoughts could not bring forth sin.  It is in this way that He is a man just like all of us.  Notice that James says those applies the temptation to our OWN lusts.  So the only way Jesus could even be tempted was to have His OWN lusts.  So Jesus showed that via the Holy Spirit that He received that He was able to put down sin (by not giving into temptation - that arose in His own flesh).  This is why He is the author of our salvation.  He did it!  Via the Holy Spirit.

Paul

Offline sparrow

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #179 on: July 06, 2009, 11:08:03 PM »
willieH: Hi brother S... :hithere:

Before I continue our conversation, I would like to say that always it has been and IS a pleasure speaking with you.  Even though we see this particular subject from different views, we are able to maintain respect for one another... I really appreciate this... I go to another forum, where hardly a post goes by without someone dissing what I said, instead of presenting their opposing viewpoint... Nice talkin with you my brother!  :happygrin:

Hi, I'm sort of a bystander, for now, here in this converstation ...  :laughing7:
but just had to post that I noticed this too, and have been blessed by it.
Peace to you both.  :thumbsup:
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #180 on: July 06, 2009, 11:11:42 PM »
Right. Man is tempted WHEN he is "drawn away of his own lust."

Correct!

Quote
People who ignore the full scripture who say that Christ was tempted internally by sin, need to decide whether or not he was "drawn away by his own lust."
...

But nobody here says this.  Nobody I'm seeing here says that Christ was tempted BY SIN.  No, what people here are saying is that Jesus was tempted by lust just as James is saying.

Paul


Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #181 on: July 06, 2009, 11:40:37 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?

Exactly.


Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



"conceived"

G4815
συλλαμβάνω
sullambanō
sool-lam-ban'-o
From G4862 and G2983; to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.


What starts out as a longing or a desire becomes a prison cell with a life sentence.  It's a different seed that is conceiving with our own desire, bringing forth a bitter fruit--sin unto death.



Yes, Molly, your seeing it!  This is what Jesus was able to do.  He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him, and those originated within Him and yet He didn't let them draw Him away and entice Him and thus those thoughts could not bring forth sin.  It is in this way that He is a man just like all of us.  Notice that James says those applies the temptation to our OWN lusts.  So the only way Jesus could even be tempted was to have His OWN lusts.  So Jesus showed that via the Holy Spirit that He received that He was able to put down sin (by not giving into temptation - that arose in His own flesh).  This is why He is the author of our salvation.  He did it!  Via the Holy Spirit.

Paul
well, yeah, but...


Quote
He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him,


no no no nooo


'evil' and Jesus do not go in the same sentence together.



34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

--Luke 4

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #182 on: July 06, 2009, 11:50:05 PM »
Quote
I do not contest this... But in order for CHRIST to OVERCOME, ...He had to have been faced with THAT which faces us... You are welcome to believe otherwise...

Yeah, he smashed satan between the eyes with the Holy Scripture.

But, just being in the presence of satan is exhausting.

So much evil...

...Trying to kill the Son of God by tempting him to prove himself by jumping off a high building...



trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #183 on: July 06, 2009, 11:51:08 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?

Exactly.


Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



"conceived"

G4815
συλλαμβάνω
sullambanō
sool-lam-ban'-o
From G4862 and G2983; to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.


What starts out as a longing or a desire becomes a prison cell with a life sentence.  It's a different seed that is conceiving with our own desire, bringing forth a bitter fruit--sin unto death.



Yes, Molly, your seeing it!  This is what Jesus was able to do.  He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him, and those originated within Him and yet He didn't let them draw Him away and entice Him and thus those thoughts could not bring forth sin.  It is in this way that He is a man just like all of us.  Notice that James says those applies the temptation to our OWN lusts.  So the only way Jesus could even be tempted was to have His OWN lusts.  So Jesus showed that via the Holy Spirit that He received that He was able to put down sin (by not giving into temptation - that arose in His own flesh).  This is why He is the author of our salvation.  He did it!  Via the Holy Spirit.

Paul
well, yeah, but...


Quote
He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him,


no no no nooo


'evil' and Jesus do not go in the same sentence together.



34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

--Luke 4


So you don't believe that Jesus could know Good AND Evil?

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #184 on: July 07, 2009, 12:02:09 AM »
Quote from: Paul
Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?

Exactly.


Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



"conceived"

G4815
συλλαμβάνω
sullambanō
sool-lam-ban'-o
From G4862 and G2983; to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.


What starts out as a longing or a desire becomes a prison cell with a life sentence.  It's a different seed that is conceiving with our own desire, bringing forth a bitter fruit--sin unto death.



Yes, Molly, your seeing it!  This is what Jesus was able to do.  He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him, and those originated within Him and yet He didn't let them draw Him away and entice Him and thus those thoughts could not bring forth sin.  It is in this way that He is a man just like all of us.  Notice that James says those applies the temptation to our OWN lusts.  So the only way Jesus could even be tempted was to have His OWN lusts.  So Jesus showed that via the Holy Spirit that He received that He was able to put down sin (by not giving into temptation - that arose in His own flesh).  This is why He is the author of our salvation.  He did it!  Via the Holy Spirit.

Paul
well, yeah, but...


Quote
He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him,


no no no nooo


'evil' and Jesus do not go in the same sentence together.



34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

--Luke 4


So you don't believe that Jesus could know Good AND Evil?

Paul
Of course he knew good and evil.  He's God.


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

--Gen 3


But, you can't have evil thoughts and be the Holy One of God.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #185 on: July 07, 2009, 12:32:34 AM »
Quote from: Paul
Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?

Exactly.


Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



"conceived"

G4815
συλλαμβάνω
sullambanō
sool-lam-ban'-o
From G4862 and G2983; to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.


What starts out as a longing or a desire becomes a prison cell with a life sentence.  It's a different seed that is conceiving with our own desire, bringing forth a bitter fruit--sin unto death.



Yes, Molly, your seeing it!  This is what Jesus was able to do.  He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him, and those originated within Him and yet He didn't let them draw Him away and entice Him and thus those thoughts could not bring forth sin.  It is in this way that He is a man just like all of us.  Notice that James says those applies the temptation to our OWN lusts.  So the only way Jesus could even be tempted was to have His OWN lusts.  So Jesus showed that via the Holy Spirit that He received that He was able to put down sin (by not giving into temptation - that arose in His own flesh).  This is why He is the author of our salvation.  He did it!  Via the Holy Spirit.

Paul
well, yeah, but...


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He was able to have evil thoughts that tempted Him,


no no no nooo


'evil' and Jesus do not go in the same sentence together.



34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

--Luke 4


So you don't believe that Jesus could know Good AND Evil?

Paul
Of course he knew good and evil.  He's God.


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

--Gen 3


But, you can't have evil thoughts and be the Holy One of God.

So how do you know Evil without having Evil thoughts?

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #186 on: July 07, 2009, 12:55:12 AM »
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Wait, let's back up.  You haven't answered to James yet.  You have not yet told me why James says when lust conceives it brings forth sin.  You keep trying to tell me that lust is sin.  You have yet to explain why James had to say that lust BRINGS FORTH SIN.  You haven't told me why James doesn't call Lust itself sin.

James is not saying that lust comes first and sin comes second: According Romans 7:8 SIN WITHIN produces lust. If anything, sin within first produces lust, then lust conceived produces sin, and death is when sin slays us. Is lust sin of itself? I suppose it depends on how it is manifested: dead or alive? Lust to the one with the Spirit is dead and therfore not only not a sin, but not felt. But lust to the one without the spirit is alive, and is a committal of sin in the heart.

This is to say that  in response to your words: "when Satan was tempting Jesus then it would mean that the thoughts of disobedience originated in Jesus' mind and thus not some external entity." and "I think bad thoughts so if Jesus is a man like me then He did to." The "thinking of bad thoughts" is when lust is seized upon and become sin, which is when the sin of lusting is alive to us. You say: "For our flesh has these urgings.  That is what flesh does.  It has urges and you make the wonderful point that if Jesus overcame then what did He overcome if not His own urges."

The urge after a woman is a sin committed in the heart already. If your mind is not in the flesh then lust is does not produce the sin of "bad thoughts" and therefore is dormant. But does the urge occur in the mind or the flesh? According to Romans 7, the struggle in our flesh is in the mind, and is when the law of sin in our members wars with the law of our mind. If our mind is not in our members but is in the Spirit, then the the war is ceased. This is why Christ was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and in all ways tempted like us .... here is the exception....without sin.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #187 on: July 07, 2009, 01:02:13 AM »

His flesh was tempted by hubris, avarice and ambition.
But I'm not sure He owned them.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #188 on: July 07, 2009, 01:10:28 AM »
The prince of the air can enter and exit in a breath.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #189 on: July 07, 2009, 01:14:03 AM »
Quote
So how do you know Evil without having Evil thoughts?

Paul

You don't have to have evil thoughts to know evil, just be able to discern good and evil and look around.

I'm not plotting all day long to steal everyone's last dime, but I know it's evil when I see it.


"to know"  good and evil

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 01:17:46 AM by Molly »

Offline claypot

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #190 on: July 07, 2009, 01:22:16 AM »
Lust can have a sexual application yet it can mean a strong desire too.

Can we lust after God?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #191 on: July 07, 2009, 01:25:23 AM »

His flesh was tempted by hubris, avarice and ambition.
But I'm not sure He owned them.


Satan couldn't touch him.


30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

--John 14

Offline claypot

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #192 on: July 07, 2009, 01:28:46 AM »
Does anyone here consider that evil and sin are 2 different things?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #193 on: July 07, 2009, 01:32:13 AM »
God watches a little girl get raped and does nothing to stop it. For a person to do this it is a sin yet for God it is not. Evil is being acted out yet sin arises for one and not another.

Hmmmmmm, just thinking.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #194 on: July 07, 2009, 01:59:33 AM »
willieH: Hi brother S...

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Before I continue our conversation, I would like to say that always it has been and IS a pleasure speaking with you.  Even though we see this particular subject from different views, we are able to maintain respect for one another... I really appreciate this... I go to another forum, where hardly a post goes by without someone dissing what I said, instead of presenting their opposing viewpoint... Nice talkin with you my brother!  

Likewise, my bro. I have learned much from you and even in this convo, I stand to learn even if we have some differing points of view.


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I have not suggested that CHRIST entertained SIN in His mind... I have continually stated that TEMPTATION was proposed to HIM, as it is proposed to US... via the NATURE of the FLESH, and in the mind which is LEARNING OBEDIENCE...

Right. I am also stating that temptation was proposed to him. I suppose the difference is in what proposed and how that proposition occurs. "Temptation proposed" is a pretty vague impression to me. What I think it means as you say it (and correct me if I am not reading you right) is that the proposal is the urge, or as Paul (trittep) put it "thinking bad thoughts." Thinking bad thoughts and having urges to sin IS a sin committed in the heart.  I also agree that temptation was proposed, but the spirit that proposed it was not in his mind.



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Quote from: Seth on Today at 12:10:28 PM
The reason is that having the Divine Nature is what is responsible from RESTING from sinful desires not of our personal struggle. Christ's emotional struggle dealt with fear of death, which is the very context when the NT deals with Christ's likeness to us.

Though I did not address this when you said it earlier, I will now -- I do not believe that CHRIST "feared death"... it is an assumption to deduce that FEAR was present in Him...  I more view CHRIST, having been given "pre-vision" of the TORMENT that He was to endure on the WAY to that DEATH... was that "cup" which He prayed might be passed.  

He knew He was going to be beaten, ridiculed, whipped, etc... and as one might easily agree, this is hardly something one would be "looking forward" to...  I also believe that He was completely confident that He would RISE from DEATH... so in that, I do not see Him as "FEARING" death... (you are welcome to believe otherwise, guess we will find out for sure one day!)

When I say "fear of death" am not talking necessarily about what Jesus KNEW would happen, more about what he felt. He suffered . The fear of death is desribed in Hebrews 2 and 5 where it talks about in what ways Christ was tempted like us and overcame. His brothers also had the fear of death. While apart from sin, Christ felt our infirmities and was tempted in all ways like us. Hebrews 5: Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared." Perhaps "feared" is better understood as "respected" as in God heard Him because Christ respected and revered God. However the strong crying and tears we see is in regard to "the suffering" that Hebrews talks about "in the days of his Flesh." That has to do with death. I do not see that the testing of suffering had to do with a suffering regarding sin, but in suffering death, and the clear reference is to the Garden, when Christ was about to suffer death.



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About the supposition that EVIL was not proposed to the mind of CHRIST, ...That is YOUR POSITION of view bro, not mine...

Well, I do believe it was proposed to the mind of Christ. But the proposal was dead in that Christ's mind was not within the flesh. We both agree that there was a proposal.


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 BOY! ...we're just a couple of "point missers" aren't we?    (just kidn')  

LOL


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Around the "rosey" do we "ring" eh?   ...Obedience is just like any other principle presented in the wisdom of our Creator, Seth... The OPPOSITE of a concept plays a PIVOTAL PART in the definition of the PRINCIPLES and LAWS He presents!  EVIL is the other side of a 2 edged sword... GOOD also stems from the SAME ROOT...

OBEDIENCE cannot be, without DISOBEDIENCE... The 2 are INSEPARABLE... One LIGHTS up understanding of the presence of the OTHER...

That we understand the concept of obedience in that disobedience EXISTS, we have no argument. We agree on that.

However IN PRACTICE, it is DEFINITELY possible for Christ to learn obedience without first necessitating disobedience. It doesn't say that Christ learned obedience through "trial and error." It just says that he learned obedience through "suffering." Someone who is already obedient can still learn obedience when the test becomes tougher. There is no indication that Christ had to fail first in order to learn like we do.

to learn: to gain or acquire knowledge or skill, or commit to memory.

That is all learning is. To gain or aquire. Learning does not necessitate first losing or falling, only gaining. If I learn through suffering math class that 1+1 = 2 it's not that I was opposed to that. It was simply unlearned info that I gained.


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I was messin' witya... I realize that I am quite sarcastic about this myth...  

Don't you see brother... This whole thing has grown into a WORLD WIDE mythology, which is ENJOYED by the WORLD?  "satan" is an ICON in this world bro!  He has the "spotlight" that rightly belongs to GOD, even in the RELIGION and THEOLOGY of Christianity!

I get that, and I don't hold their opinion about it.

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Well... you have a pretty unique belief in this myth bro (no offense)... Most see "Him" as a "Him" not a "Them"... they just believe that "he" has innumerable "cronies" that "he" orders around... which is even MORE ridiculous.  Where were these innumerable "demons" in the OT?  Were they on vacation in the Bahamas?  

LOL. Satan was made into a proper noun, a capitalized name, which I do out of habit. I just read the text to find out what the opposer is in each case that "satan" is mentioned. I take it verse by verse and try to stay away from blanket definitions of it.

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Let's put it this way  (forgive my facetiousness):

Does it make more sense for a car manufacturer to put "cig lighters" in their cars as part of their manufactured "makeup" or hire innumerable people to drive alongside them, with cigarette lighters in case the drivers of their cars, wanted to have a "smoke"? 

No that wouldn't make sense. But it does make sense to have a many-membered body of Christ when Jesus could have still done it all himself.

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JESUS did not come to present NEW problems... He came REPAIR OLD ONES...

His parables created some problems for those without the Spirit, along with his intention that they not be understood. ;-)


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This is another of the "God LOVES the sinner, but HATES the sin" variety bro...

It is NOT Peter who is distasteful to CHRIST... as is DISPLAYED in the extremely close proximity of the CONTEXT which avails the GRAND notation that JESUS would be giving Peter the KEYS to the Kingdom of HEAVEN... 

It is this little set of WORDS which came OUT of Peter, that CHRIST got "miffed" at... (if one is "miffed" are they in fact, "miffing"?   --- am I just "miffing" something here?  )

I didn't say Peter was distasteful to Christ. At least I didn't mean that if I did. It doesn't even say Christ was angry. He just turned and spoke. I try not to assume the emotional content of it. It just says what it says. That there is a grand meaning is possible. But Peter was definitely the opposer at that moment.

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That said... there are things you have yet to gain in that process bro... and I do not in any way "dis" you for that...  You WILL see one day, that "satan" is the portion of MAN which is found in his DISOBEDIENT and NATURAL will, that must give way to the WILL of YHVH...

WillieH, I don't deny that Satan CAN be a portion of man. I said ANYTHING can be an opposer. But, I take verse by verse to see what satan is referring to in whatever context.

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I do not contest this... But in order for CHRIST to OVERCOME, ...He had to have been faced with THAT which faces us... You are welcome to believe otherwise...

Right, he overcame the world, and all its persecutions. Concerning sin, God already overcame that for him. Concerning sin, he rested, which is why he was apart from sin. Concerning the world, Christ was not apart from the persecutions and sufferings it provided. He was tested in all feelings of our infirmities...apart from sin.

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Then you brought up Heb 3:8-10 which is a quote of Psalm 95:8-11 which is in reference to Ex 17:2-7, which is NOT "TEMPTATION" to do EVIL and NOT the same manner of "TEMPTATION" that CHRIST OVERCAME!

Ok, now I see where the trinity thing came in. Thanks for clearing it up. My whole point of showing the temptation of God, was to show why I was using the word "tested" and "tempted." In English, we use the word "tempted" when describing what we feel, and "tested" to describe what someone presents. We have more words in English so they take on all different kinds of nuances. In the Greek its the same word so we have to use the context to determine what kind of "testing" it is.

That is why I said that Christ was tested, but not tempted, meaning that because he was without sin, there was nothing to war with his mind. So I agreed that the test was happening, but not according to a "pull of the flesh."


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The TEMPTATION we are discussing here is that of the PRESENTATION of EVIL to MAN... and that "satan" is either the "presenter" as a being or the "presenter" as a PRINCIPALITY which is PART of the NATURAL Makeup of MAN...

YOU determine it an ACT, because YOU percieve it is presented by an EXTERNAL intelligence you wish to name as "satan"

I percieve and determine that it is a PART of the NATURAL and CREATED NATURE of Human beings, one of which was JESUS CHRIST... and that NO "sentient" external being is necessary for TEMPTATION to propose itself to ANY MAN, including CHRIST...

Yes that the difference. The difference is in what we each believe to be acting as the opposer or deciever. I think you have decided that IN ALL CASES the opposer is the "natural and created" - I noticed you avoided "carnal" - nature is in every human including Christ. Since I do not believe Christ's mind was within the flesh, that satan would have been too muffled to be heard by Christ. That is why I believe that IN THIS CASE, the spirit testing Christ was not within his nature as a Spiritual man. The nature of a Spiritual man is made different the nature of the natural or carnal man. In that respect Christ was much different from us. Regarding the suffering of death he was in all points the same.

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TEMPTATION is NOT... SIN.   TEMPTATION is the INVITATION to SIN.  

Scripturally, to be tempted is to be "drawn away of your own lust and enticed." Lust had to exist. Sin produces lust Romans 7:8. Christ was without sin, so sin could not produce lust in him, and lust could not draw him away and entice him.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 03:25:41 AM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #195 on: July 07, 2009, 02:07:24 AM »
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But nobody here says this.  Nobody I'm seeing here says that Christ was tempted BY SIN.  No, what people here are saying is that Jesus was tempted by lust just as James is saying.

The miscommunication is occurring by us not agreeing with where sin starts. SIN produces lust, what sin? The sin in our members. How does sin produce lust, by warring with our minds. Sin is the tempter because it creates the lust that tempts us. I should have been more clear about that.

What is necessary for Jesus to be tempted (drawn away of his own lust and enticed): That lust be present. What Paul called the "sin in me" is what produced lust in the first place. Christ being without sin, with a mind not in the flesh, could not be drawn away of his own lust and enticed because his mind was not at war with sin. His mind was not in the flesh at all.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #196 on: July 07, 2009, 02:15:20 AM »
Seth,
Perhaps you could write it all down in one new thread and leave a link as a referral.

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #197 on: July 07, 2009, 02:35:49 AM »
HI Beloved Servant. I never thought about doing that. What does it accomplish?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #198 on: July 07, 2009, 02:43:47 AM »
Well, perhaps, you could remove all doubt.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #199 on: July 07, 2009, 02:50:58 AM »
I'm reminded of the second book of Timothy.
It is a quick, poignant read.