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Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #150 on: July 06, 2009, 07:10:28 PM »
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May I interrupt this for a moment -- mm-kay?

LOL, mm-kay? That was funny. You have always had a good sense of humor.

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GOD ordains EVERYTHING... JESUS "not sinning" is as ordained as PHARAOH not letting the children GO...

We are actually LIVING parts of YHVH... and He is about revealing to the BODY, what the HEAD has ALWAYS KNOWN -- Good and Evil...

JESUS as the SON of GOD, had the DIVINE nature... but as the SON of MAN, He NATURALLY had the NATURE of MAN... which means that the proposals of the FLESH would arise in Him, and it is over those proposals that He OVERCAME... (which by the way was ORDAINED before it occured -- Rev 13:8)

That Christ was the son of Man does NOT in any way necessitate that sinful desires in his MIND would occur. The reason is that having the Divine Nature is what is responsible from RESTING from sinful desires not of our personal struggle. Christ's emotional struggle dealt with fear of death, which is the very context when the NT deals with Christ's likeness to us. However, Paul, concerning God's rest, is very clear to insert that Christ struggled emotionally, APART from sin. That is because the Gospel is consistent. Christ is our model to grow enough in the Spirit, that we do not struggle emotionally with sin, but rest always in God who IS our strength. Concerning the fear of death, it behooved God to make Christ like us in all things that he may overcome that fear and we may overcome the world as he did.



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CHRIST was "without sin" because He OVERCAME Temptation bro... If GOD made it IMPOSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then there is something IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... GOD still, even though He had ORDAINED CHRIST to be sin-less... included the actual OVERCOMING of TEMPTATION, for there is NOTHING that is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD...

John says that is is not possible for God to lie. It says God CANNOT lie. Hebrews 6:18 Titus 1:2

Nothing is impossible with God concerning the salvation of man. Christ was without sin, because he was WITHOUT sin, including sin in his mind and heart. That includes desire.

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You missed my point... teaching someone obedience does NOT accomplish it as you suggested in your post bro...  Obedience is LEARNED through EXPERIENTIAL living... and in the NATURAL, unassisted by GOD, we shall FAIL every time, to OBEY...

Brother, I also think you missed my point. The teacher in my example was me to show how obedience can be learned without disobedience being an issue. The referrence was to how Christ learned obedience through suffering the persecution of the world. Christ learned obedience not necessitating disobedience be present first. His sufferings taught him to GROW in obedience, not turn from disobedience. The example I gave was to show how that disobedience is NOT an automatic necessity for learning obedience. If God taught Christ to learn through suffering, he learned it in the same way that I would teach my child to do this or that without waiting for her to be disobedient.


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"satan" is a part of your Natural makeup as a human being Seth... it is the ability to "choose" to transgress the Command of God... No fantasy of a "red guy, with a flowing cape, a pitchfork in one hand, a sceptre in the other"...  ordering the human race around like puppets... 

Name me one instance where you have seen "him" Seth.  Be honest.  "satan" is the single LARGEST decieving element within Christianity which spends as much time on "him" as it does on God...  When all along... IT is as much a part of YOU as your teeth or your arms & legs... IT is that which you DIE DAILY to... the YOU which is the OPPOSER of the Command of God, not some mythical imagined "devil" 

Bro, I never said Satan was a red guy in a cape. I just see that satan is a general term which does not relegate it to being a single entity at all times, OR a single concept OR condition at all times. Anything and anyone can be an opposer, and it just depends on what God sets in opposition to who and at what time. I don't believe in a blanket definition of "satan" because the Bible doesn't teach one.

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If you examine the text closely Seth... you will SEE that JESUS was addressing "Peter's" agreement with MEN... and with the tainted WAYS of MEN, and not GOD... Re-read it for yourself:

Matt 16:23 -- but He turned and said unto Peter -- get thee behind Me "satan", thou are an offense unto Me, for [here it comes, bro, hope you get this!] ----> THOU SAVOREST NOT the THINGS that BE OF GOD, but THOSE that BE OF MEN -- such as the "THINGS" that Peter... had just spoken!!!

I think you are reading into that past what it really says. It says, UNTO PETER "Get behind me satan, YOU (Peter) are an offense unto me because (for the reason that) YOU (Peter) savor not the things of of but of men. Peter is the satan because HIS DESIRES were in opposition to God.

The offense to Jesus, Jesus said, was Peter himself because of his mindset, and that is what made Peter in opposition to the things of God.

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No amount of preaching by either of us shall change the other Seth... Just like leaving behind ET, and the "trinity", ...have I left the Halloween character that most Christianity believes in... You are welcome to keep it...

When did I say I believed in the trinity? I don't believe in the trinity. You jumped to a conclusion about me. I am not talking about Christ as being a member of the trinity, I am talking about where his MINDSET was at. Contrary to Peter, Jesus's mind was in the bosom of his father. It isn't that Christ was a God separate and individually from his Father, or even equal to his father. It was that Christ thought it not robbery to be CONSIDERED equal to God (which the Bible also says). The reason for that is that Christ's MIND was kept by God and he was not in the flesh but in the Spirit.


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I do not believe that JESUS was GOD... He was the SON of GOD... He even noted that He had a GOD --  --  GOD was not tempted, JESUS ...was!  GOD is SPIRIT, ...JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6

Scripture notes it as you well know -- Heb 4:15

I don't know why you are bringing the trinity doctrine into this because it is definitely a strawman argument Willie. I love you bro, but you are way off track of what I am saying. I NEVER said that Jesus is God of his own nature. He thinks it not robbery to be CONSIDERED equal to God (Philippians 2:6-7), but I never said he IS God of his own nature. The reason he is CONSIDERED equal to God is by the fullness of God in him. That is why He is lower than His father, but higher than us. Still, I have no idea how this has anything to do with what I said.


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Sorry Seth, but this TEMPTATION of GOD is NOT the TEMPTATION of men...  God noted that men TRIED Him by PROVOCATION... and DID recieve His anger because of it... they wandered for FORTY YEARS... instead of crossing over...

And the point being in that, is that temptation is an ACT of testing and trying. Christ was a man, but like unto us to the point of being apart from sin.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:00:21 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #151 on: July 06, 2009, 07:34:06 PM »
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I have listed MANY verses which combine with one another to establish that "satan" is NOT a being, nor that IT is a "he"... That you cannot answer this verse, serves defeat to your arguement of "satan" as being, ...as far as I am concerned...

Here is what YOU CALL, ..."one verse" 

The Scriptures state:

(1) CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6
(2) CHRIST was TEMPTED (to SIN) -- Matt 4:1-11
(3) That GOD CANNOT be TEMPTED (with EVIL) -- James 1:13 -- CHRIST was...
(4) That EVERY MAN is TEMPTED in the same MANNER -- James 1:14 -- CHRIST was a MAN
(5) That CHRIST was TEMPTED ...AS... are we in ALL POINTS -- Heb 4:15
(6)  There is not even a mention of "satan" in the WORD, until 1 Chron 21:1... there are only 19 mentions of "satan" in all the OT, FOURTEEN of those NINETEEN are in JOB... which many consider a PARABOLIC or METAPHORIC writing... leaving only FIVE verses in the entire OT... in which "satan" appears... 

Much like the FALLACY of HELL, ...is its "keeper" preached to ears eager to hear negativity...

The GOSPEL is PEACE bro... there is no room for the furthering of this myth which only displaces GOD in its attentions...

I pray you might lose this attention... 

There are many strawmen arguments there WilliH. I will list them: I never said that Christ IS God. I never said that Satan is a keeper of hell. My referrence to not interpreting a scripture solely had nothing to do with your interpretation of satan. It had to do with the definition of sin.

Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth IN me.

Romans 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth IN me.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is IN my members.


Lust, the very desire itself, is sin in the heart according to Christ. And if THAT is seized upon, or "concieved" then it produces sin. It is sin producing sin if you harmonize. Lust is an inward act of sin in the HEART, as Jesus said. Now for them who do not have the Spirit, who are in the flesh, they war with God's law. But for them who have GROWN in the spirit, they rest. For them who are WITHOUT sin, which includes "sin dwelling within" they are at COMPLETE rest because they do not war with God. The struggle with sin is in the mind FIRST, because sin is in the flesh. But if the mind is renewed and kept by God, in the Bosom of the father, and not in the flesh, the war is over.

You say, regarding Job, "which many consider a PARABOLIC or METAPHORIC writing" So what if they consider it to be metaphoric. Something can be metaphoric and still have a literal root. I consider the entire Bible to be metaphoric, which does not mean I believe that nothing in it literally happened.

Job could have been afflicted by a being (not the keeper of hell *eyeroll*) but a BEING, or any given SPIRIT wandering to and fro on the earth and the writing could STILL be metaphoric.


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I believe this is what you believe, Seth... but JESUS was TEMPTED as are all men... When faced with that TEMPTATION, ...He did not INDULGE the TEMPTATION, ...and THAT is the separation between Him and US.

JESUS, however was TEMPTED to do this, or He was NOT TEMPTED as are we... Nor was He TEMPTED in ALL POINTS that we are TEMPTED...

He was tested by satan in all points APART from sin.

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This is semantics... Like saying "the HOOD" and "the NEIGHBORHOOD" are 2 different things... 

The "temptation" we are discussing is a TEST... but it is a MORAL test... I am just saying that to call it a "test" is to reduce it from what is actually being discussed...

JESUS did not OVERCOME a TEST... He OVERCAME TEMPTATION...  The word TEMPTATION describes more accurately the TYPE of TEST He endured...

I am not reducing it, I am DISTINGUISHING it so that you understand HOW I am distinguishing it. And since you know that God can be tempted, it bears some distinguishing language to understand HOW God was tempted. Jesus overcame a test WillieH. It is the same word. Was it just semantics to you when you found out that Sheol and Hades were not the same as the Hell of the Evangelical world?

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What shall be SIN is if you ACCEPT her proposal, or you ENTERTAIN it in thought.

You talk about sin's proposal and the pull of the flesh. Those are all feelings. The proposal is in the mind WillieH. There is no desire, or a "pull" without the mind being present to feel that pull. Christ is clear that the DESIRING after what is forbidden is a commitment of adultery in the heart. The desire is the "pull of the flesh." The feeling of lust IS the proposal to sin outwardly and is a sin of itself. Christ was braindead to sin as we are learning to be. The proposal to sin was not in his mind, it was from a test given to him of a spirit which was not in him, that is satan. That is not to say that "satan" is always this or always that. From the immediate context of the passage, and the overall sum of the word is how I determine what satan is in each particular case. The opposer can be anything.


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which CHRIST had (as a MAN), whether or not you accept it...

I accept that Christ was a man, but a man apart from sin. That means whether or not there was sin in his flesh - like it is with us - or not, does not matter. That his mind was not in the flesh, is the point. For Christ, there was no war like there is with us. Yes he was in all points tested, and apart from sin. He had been seized to Heaven by God even as as he was on earth speaking to his followers.


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Sorry bro, but TEMPTATION is NOT SIN... indulging TEMPTATION is ...whether in THOUGHT, WORD or action...

TEMPTATION is PROPOSAL... SIN is the acceptance and indulgence of the proposal... 

I know that being tested with sin is not a sin in itself. However I do know that the "poposal to sin" if it is internal IS a thought or feeling toward what is forbidden. Itself that is sin, according to Jesus, and it is what Christ was apart from. Since Christ was not carnally minded (which was outright stated in the beginning of this thread, I conclude the difference in "testing" is not in an eternal emotional temptation to sin, but a testing to sin by which Christ revealed just how spiritual his mind already was. Without a carnal mind, there is no "pull of the flesh." OUr minds are part carnal and part spiritual insomuch as we do not have a FULL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit. But when we have have been given our full measure of the spirit, "when we see him," having the full inheritance, our minds will be completely converted to God's pure and spiritual mind like Christ's was.

Peace to you too bro.  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 09:44:40 PM by Seth »

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #152 on: July 06, 2009, 07:46:41 PM »
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The question is, how much of the impartation of the Divine Nature did CHrist have?


Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily



Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God...


"fulness" [of the Godhead]
G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion




"repletion"

The condition of being fully supplied or completely filled.
A state of excessive fullness.
Superabundant fullness
Being filled to the point of bursting.

:angel4:

amen. He had the Holy Spirit without measure. The title of this thread is "You ARE satan." What is the motivating logic to say that? That to be a man means that we have a natural spirit of disobedience in us. 

As Paul (trittep) said: "If Jesus didn't have to overcome lust and evil things that come from the self then He didn't overcome as I have to overcome.  I think bad thoughts so if Jesus is a man like me then He did to."

Now, let's ask ourselves, what is the logical conclusion about Jesus based on the logic and TITLE of this thread? If I, as a man without a full amount of the Spirit, therefore AM satan, what does that make Jesus, if he is like me? You see where it leads. The logical conclusion would have to be: Jesus is Satan.

But I am sure nobody who holds the same logic would actually say those three words, seeing as how blasphemous it would but all signs would have to point there.


Let's take Satan out of the issue for a moment and look at what your saying.  If Satan is like a man (any man) so we must assume a man that doesn't have the Holy Spirit.  Would that mean that Jesus is still Holy if He is then like a man that doesn't have the Holy Spirit?  In other words isn't being a man without the Holy Spirit just as bad as being Satan?

Paul 

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #153 on: July 06, 2009, 07:53:28 PM »
Wait a minute. You said let's take satan out of the issue, then you start talking about satan. Confusing.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #154 on: July 06, 2009, 07:57:12 PM »
The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

--Mat 20:28

"ransom"
G3083
λύτρον
lutron
loo'-tron
From G3089; something to loosen with, that is, a redemption price (figuratively atonement): - ransom.


The death of Christ is the redemption price for my life.  This is what satan set up in the garden.  Jesus gave himself as a ransom for me.



1Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:



7-8Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice.


--Psalm 49



My Lord and my God. I am humbled beyond tears.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #155 on: July 06, 2009, 08:01:18 PM »
...
That Christ was the son of Man does NOT in any way necessitate that sinful desires in his MIND would occur. The reason is that having the Divine Nature is what is responsible from RESTING from sinful desires not of our personal struggle.

Seth, is there such thing as "sinful desire"?  That is a term that I don't find in God's Word.  What is a sinful desire?  God even thinks Evil. For after man learned Good and Evil this is what it says:

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Scriptures are pretty clear that the desire precedes the "sin".  

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So this term "sinful desires" is a fallacy.  A red herring.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #156 on: July 06, 2009, 08:08:20 PM »
Wait a minute. You said let's take satan out of the issue, then you start talking about satan. Confusing.

Well, let me make it less confusing -  Is a man Holy if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit?

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #157 on: July 06, 2009, 08:20:10 PM »
Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.


Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #158 on: July 06, 2009, 08:26:03 PM »
...
That Christ was the son of Man does NOT in any way necessitate that sinful desires in his MIND would occur. The reason is that having the Divine Nature is what is responsible from RESTING from sinful desires not of our personal struggle.

Seth, is there such thing as "sinful desire"?  That is a term that I don't find in God's Word.  What is a sinful desire?  God even thinks Evil. For after man learned Good and Evil this is what it says:

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Scriptures are pretty clear that the desire precedes the "sin".  

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So this term "sinful desires" is a fallacy.  A red herring.

Paul

The word "sinful desires" is a fallacy simply because the actual phrase is not in the Bible, the King James? In that case claiming that "Jesus Christ had a carnal mind" is also a red herring, since that is an unscriptural phrase. The sinful desires I am talking about are desires RELATED to the sin in our members:

1 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (epithumia).


epithumia
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

Matthew 5:28
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust (epithumia) after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Looking on a woman to desire after her (epithumia) is a committment of adultery in the heart. That is ONE way that Christ is not like unto his brothers, by way of being APART from sin in the flesh described by Romans 7. If we have all looked upon a woman to desire after her (epithumia), Christ did not do that.

So the Bible is clear that the desire TO sin IS a sin.


« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 08:33:29 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #159 on: July 06, 2009, 08:31:17 PM »
Wait a minute. You said let's take satan out of the issue, then you start talking about satan. Confusing.

Well, let me make it less confusing -  Is a man Holy if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit?

Paul

What do mean by holy? Set apart?

Offline chuckt

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #160 on: July 06, 2009, 08:45:14 PM »
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So the Bible is clear that the desire TO sin IS a sin.

that would be coveting..right?

well either way im screwed. but wait, while me flesh desires to sin me mind/spirit desires God.

Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. 

We are either FREE or not, one who contols himself not to commit adultry yet lust's all day long is as much a slave as the one who commits, UNLESS.....

this is where i usually hear:

""so you are saying its ok to sin"""    :sigh:

chuckt


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Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #161 on: July 06, 2009, 08:49:17 PM »
14Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.


15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol,...

--Psalm 49




.... the man Christ Jesus;

 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


--1 Tim 2



Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #162 on: July 06, 2009, 08:51:09 PM »
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So the Bible is clear that the desire TO sin IS a sin.

that would be coveting..right?

well either way im screwed. but wait, while me flesh desires to sin me mind/spirit desires God.

We are either FREE or not, one who contols himself not to commit adultry yet lust's all day long is as much a slave as the one who commits, UNLESS.....


Exactly. The desire to sin is what occurs in the mind. Think about this. If we are braindead, when can we have lust, or any "pull of the flesh." The so-called "pull of the flesh" does not exist without the mind. And we are made to be braindead when we are baptized in Christ's death. Without the mind present in the flesh, the desires aren't there.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2009, 08:59:33 PM »
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

--1 Tim 2


Offline chuckt

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2009, 09:11:25 PM »
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So the Bible is clear that the desire TO sin IS a sin.

that would be coveting..right?

well either way im screwed. but wait, while me flesh desires to sin me mind/spirit desires God.

We are either FREE or not, one who contols himself not to commit adultry yet lust's all day long is as much a slave as the one who commits, UNLESS.....


Exactly. The desire to sin is what occurs in the mind. Think about this. If we are braindead, when can we have lust, or any "pull of the flesh." The so-called "pull of the flesh" does not exist without the mind. And we are made to be braindead when we are baptized in Christ's death. Without the mind present in the flesh, the desires aren't there.



yes but wouldnt the ""mind"" consist of that which is above and that which is below? so to speak?

what of this:

Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. 

1) the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining

a) the intellectual faculty, the understanding

b) reason in the narrower sense, as the capacity for spiritual truth, the higher powers of the soul, the faculty of perceiving divine things, of recognising goodness and of hating evil

c) the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially

2) a particular mode of thinking and judging, i.e thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires



isnt this why the renewing of the mind  is so important? if our mind is full of unloving, bad, evil, what will be left after the fire?

im remindeed of these:

Hbr 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 

Chapter 13
1 If I should be speaking in the languages of men and of the messengers, yet should have no love, I have become resounding copper or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing.
3 And if ever I should be morselling out all my possessions, and if I should be giving up my body, that I should be boasting, yet may have no love, in nothing do I benefit.
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
8 Love is never lapsing: yet, whether prophecies, they will be discarded, or languages, they will cease, or knowledge, it will be discarded.
9 For out of an instalment are we knowing, and out of an instalment are we prophesying.
10 Now whenever maturity may be coming, that which is out of an instalment shall be discarded.
11 When I was a minor, I spoke as a minor, I was disposed as a minor, I took account of things as a minor. Yet when I have become a man, I have discarded that which is a minor's. 12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also.
13 Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love -- these three. Yet the greatest of these is love.


for me i  know  the serpent/satan eats dust.


chuckt


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trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2009, 09:14:56 PM »
...
That Christ was the son of Man does NOT in any way necessitate that sinful desires in his MIND would occur. The reason is that having the Divine Nature is what is responsible from RESTING from sinful desires not of our personal struggle.

Seth, is there such thing as "sinful desire"?  That is a term that I don't find in God's Word.  What is a sinful desire?  God even thinks Evil. For after man learned Good and Evil this is what it says:

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Scriptures are pretty clear that the desire precedes the "sin".  

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So this term "sinful desires" is a fallacy.  A red herring.

Paul

The word "sinful desires" is a fallacy simply because the actual phrase is not in the Bible, the King James? In that case claiming that "Jesus Christ had a carnal mind" is also a red herring, since that is an unscriptural phrase. The sinful desires I am talking about are desires RELATED to the sin in our members:

1 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (epithumia).


epithumia
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

Matthew 5:28
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust (epithumia) after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Looking on a woman to desire after her (epithumia) is a committment of adultery in the heart. That is ONE way that Christ is not like unto his brothers, by way of being APART from sin in the flesh described by Romans 7. If we have all looked upon a woman to desire after her (epithumia), Christ did not do that.

So the Bible is clear that the desire TO sin IS a sin.




Seth, that is only once the desire has conceived.  Did you not read the verse I posted?  

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?  Why didn't he just say lust is sin? Don't see that verse 14 is showing that "conceived" means when the lust has drawn one away and enticed them then it brings forth sin.  If you remove being drawn away and being enticed from lust then you don't have sin.  See how God's Word is refuting what your attempting to say.  You trying to make it out that the desire is sin which absolutely CONTRARY to what God's Word is showing here.

Paul

  

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #166 on: July 06, 2009, 09:16:06 PM »
Quote
So the Bible is clear that the desire TO sin IS a sin.

that would be coveting..right?

well either way im screwed. but wait, while me flesh desires to sin me mind/spirit desires God.

We are either FREE or not, one who contols himself not to commit adultry yet lust's all day long is as much a slave as the one who commits, UNLESS.....


Exactly. The desire to sin is what occurs in the mind. Think about this. If we are braindead, when can we have lust, or any "pull of the flesh." The so-called "pull of the flesh" does not exist without the mind. And we are made to be braindead when we are baptized in Christ's death. Without the mind present in the flesh, the desires aren't there.



yes but wouldnt the ""mind"" consist of that which is above and that which is below? so to speak?



It only consists of what is below if you don't have the fullness of God in you, which we do not. We only have it in earnest of the redemption. Christ's mind did not consist of what is below because "he was in the bosom" of his Father. The point of the Gospel is to be seized away from the flesh. That is why Paul says, "You are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if it so be that the Spirit of God is within you." Christ was made flesh, but his mind was above, not divide like us who are not fully matured in the Spirit.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2009, 09:17:10 PM »
Wait a minute. You said let's take satan out of the issue, then you start talking about satan. Confusing.

Well, let me make it less confusing -  Is a man Holy if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit?

Paul

What do mean by holy? Set apart?

The same Holy as in Holy Spirit.  So answer the question.  Can a man be Holy if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit?

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #168 on: July 06, 2009, 09:24:15 PM »

Seth, that is only once the desire has conceived.  Did you not read the verse I posted?  

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?  Why didn't he just say lust is sin? Don't see that verse 14 is showing that "conceived" means when the lust has drawn one away and enticed them then it brings forth sin.  If you remove being drawn away and being enticed from lust then you don't have sin.  See how God's Word is refuting what your attempting to say.  You trying to make it out that the desire is sin which absolutely CONTRARY to what God's Word is showing here.

Paul

  

To understand what James is saying, understand where sin is FIRST according to Romans 7. SIN is in the flesh. It wars against the mind. That is what makes it lust.

The desire is a sin according to Christ. The desire itself is a committal in the heart. THEREFORE, when James says that when lust/desires (epithuma) has concieved (been seized upon) it brings FORTH SIN. And sin brings death. James does not say lust is sin, not because he is denying that it is, but because he is talking about when it comes forth.

Don't you know that sin can produce more sin?




Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2009, 09:25:23 PM »
Wait a minute. You said let's take satan out of the issue, then you start talking about satan. Confusing.

Well, let me make it less confusing -  Is a man Holy if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit?

Paul

What do mean by holy? Set apart?

The same Holy as in Holy Spirit.  So answer the question.  Can a man be Holy if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit?

Paul

I need you to be clearer Paul. People have varying opinions as to what holy means. Please be clearer.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #170 on: July 06, 2009, 09:33:21 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Why did James have to say that WHEN lust has conceived it brings forth sin?

Exactly.


Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



"conceived"

G4815
συλλαμβάνω
sullambanō
sool-lam-ban'-o
From G4862 and G2983; to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.


What starts out as a longing or a desire becomes a prison cell with a life sentence.  It's a different seed that is conceiving with our own desire, bringing forth a bitter fruit--sin unto death.


Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #171 on: July 06, 2009, 09:38:30 PM »
The longing and the desire is sin committed in the heart according our Lord. John is simply saying how sin in the mind seized upon produces sin. That he doesn't replace the word "lust" with "sin" is not a denial that it is.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #172 on: July 06, 2009, 09:44:57 PM »
The longing and the desire is sin committed in the heart according our Lord. John is simply saying how sin in the mind seized upon produces sin. That he doesn't replace the word "lust" with "sin" is not a denial that it is.
There are steps here.

You have to meet all the steps to give birth to [conceive] the sin which then holds you prisoner unto death.  You can go through all these steps without ever touching the woman is what Jesus tells us.

This is a favorite topic on Lifetime TV so I know about these things. :laughing7:


"conceive"

gestate: have the idea for; "He conceived of a robot that would help paralyzed patients"; "This library was well conceived"
think: judge or regard; look upon; judge; "I think he is very smart"; "I believe her to be very smart"; "I think that he is her boyfriend"; "The racist conceives such people to be inferior"
become pregnant; undergo conception; "She cannot conceive"; "My daughter was conceived in Christmas Day"

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #173 on: July 06, 2009, 09:47:12 PM »
There are steps: Sin committed in the heart = sinful desire/lust  >>> Lust conceived produces sin.

Sin producing sin. That is the death described in Romans 7. Sin producing all kinds of covetousness until it becomes exeeding sinful.

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #174 on: July 06, 2009, 09:54:03 PM »
There are steps: Sin committed in the heart = sinful desire/lust  >>> Lust conceived produces sin.

Sin producing sin. That is the death described in Romans 7. Sin producing all kinds of covetousness until it becomes exeeding sinful.

1}Tempted
2)drawn away of his own lust
3)enticed
4)conception
5)gives birth to sin
6)when finished gives birth to death.


You wouldn't believe the ridiculous problems people get into on lifetime tv because of a silly desire--murder,mayhem, life in prison, children's lives ruined, the whole ball of wax. :laughing7:

Our thoughts are very important--because, although people treat them as 'fantasy,'  they eventually will lead to action.