willieH: Hi brother S...
I will split this into 2 parts as the answer will be quite long! PART UNO...
One cannot "learn" obedience, unless DISOBEDIENCE has been presented to one as an option... And that is what TEMPTATION ...does and IS...
Let me try to put into words "POSSIBILITY" in conjunction with SOVEREIGNTY:
Within the Sovereignty of GOD lie ALL POSSIBILITIES bro... because they occur EXACTLY as the Declaration of YHVH noted them "end to beginning"... did not remove "POSSIBILITY".
The "choice" of men, is the same thing... Somehow we "choose", but those "choices" are already noted, and we are "choosing" according to that Divine Notation -- Isaiah 46:10-11
What I am saying is that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE with GOD, meaning that CHRIST had to be truly TEMPTED AS are we, and OVERCAME that TEMPTATION, but COULD have fallen... as the "ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE" with GOD enters in...
That CHRIST "could have fallen" simply means that ALL THINGS remain POSSIBLE with GOD... but though ALL things are POSSIBLE with God, does NOT MEAN that ALL POSSIBILITIES occur in manifestation...
Had GOD so ordained, ...CHRIST would have fallen because He was a MAN... but it was NOT ORDAINED that He fall, rather it was ORDAINED that He OVERCOME... eh? (I know that sounds a bit confusing, but to say that CHRIST "could NOT" have fallen, notes an "IMPOSSIBILITY" with GOD within His Sovereignty...
It's not really confusing becuase you need to factor in something. The reason it was not ordained that he fall is because God himself was keeping his mind. This is really the foundation of the Gospel itself: God's rest. By what Peter described as the impartation of the Divine Nature, it is GOD that changes our desires from carnal and lustful to purified. That is what makes it all of him and not of us, why we do not save ourselves from sin, but rely on the Holy Spirit. The question is, how much of the impartation of the Divine Nature did CHrist have? He had it completely.
May I interrupt this for a moment -- mm-kay?
GOD ordains EVERYTHING... JESUS
"not sinning" is as ordained as PHARAOH not letting the children GO...
We are actually LIVING parts of YHVH
... and He is about revealing to the BODY, what the HEAD has ALWAYS KNOWN -- Good and Evil...JESUS
as the SON of GOD, had the DIVINE nature... but as the SON of MAN, He NATURALLY had the NATURE of MAN... which means that the proposals of the FLESH would arise in Him, and it is over those proposals that He OVERCAME... (which by the way was ORDAINED before it occured -- Rev 13:8
This is why Paul makes the EXCEPTION that CHrist was "without sin." He was without sin, not by his own struggles against a carnal mind, but by God's Divine intervention. This is why we must rightly divide the difference being presented in the NT between Christ having a fear of death and Christ also being in God's rest concerning SIN.CHRIST
was "without sin" because He OVERCAME Temptation bro... If GOD made it IMPOSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then there is something IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... GOD still, even though He had ORDAINED CHRIST
to be sin-less... included the actual OVERCOMING of TEMPTATION, for there is NOTHING that is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD...
I love you bro... and thanks for presenting this "example scenario" for I have LIVED this scenario with my own son when he was little boy... I did EXACTLY as you propose... I thoroughly explained about a glass "wall heater" and the effects of touching it... Can you GUESS what happened?
I have raised 3 kids (youngest is 32), and am partaking in the rearing of 10 grandkids (oldest is 16, youngest 6 months)... and believe me, the "SCHOOL of LIFE" concerning the concepts of "obedience and disobedience" shall they TEACH YOU, as you live the life of a father and grandfather!
Can I guess what happened? I don't have to guess . They disobeyed? But why? Because they were not without sin. That is why Jesus is an example to them too.
You missed my point... teaching someone obedience does NOT accomplish it as you suggested in your post bro... Obedience is LEARNED through EXPERIENTIAL living... and in the NATURAL, unassisted by GOD, we shall FAIL every time, to OBEY...
But when we submit to HIM and HIS POWER... we are able to OVERCOME as did our SAVIOR... for we have submitted ourselves to Spiritual VICTORY in HIS WORD
, instead of the Natural DEFEAT found within ours...CHRIST
learned obedience... by LIVING and being TESTED, in the very same WAYS we are... the big difference is POWER. You and I have BEEN CONCLUDED to UNBELIEF by the same POWER which CONCLUDED Him TO BELIEVE! JESUS
was the FIRST Son to LEARN COMPLETE and PERFECT Obedience... for all Sons before Him, depended upon it...
EXAMPLE: You have NO MONEY, and a piece of bubblegum lying in a box in the store, does not propose to you that you "steal it" to you, neither does a "red guy" jump up and hint to you this possibility... the bubblegum lies within ownership of the store (which possession is rightfully within the LAW), and it is YOUR DESIRE to CHEW IT, that "presents" the TEMPTATION to relieve the store of its possession of it...
Or a person can present the temptation. While I understand your theory about Satan not being a being, it is not something that can dogmatically relied upon to analyze Christ's temptation with Satan. WillieH, Satan just means "opposer." If an angel-being is sent by God to oppose something, that being becomes an opposer/satan. You probably could acknoledge that there can be many different types of satans, without the necessity to EXLUDE it as a being.
I don't need the complication brother... I spent 25 years believing that there was this POWERFUL being with which I did battle... I could not see "him", I could not begin to KNOW what He knew, I could not match "his" antiquity in my vapor of a life... and then it was revealed to me WHAT "satan" IS...
Through much fussing with Craig, did GOD make the revelation actually occur... "satan" is the single most POWERFUL entity on the earth... "He" is worshipped, feared, written about, worried about, more than anything... Motion pictures and TV productions come out DAILY about "him"... it is ridiculously the single LARGEST deception there IS in the human race!
"satan" is a part of your Natural makeup as a human being Seth... it is the ability to "choose" to transgress the Command of God... No fantasy of a "red guy, with a flowing cape, a pitchfork in one hand, a sceptre in the other"... ordering the human race around like puppets...
Name me one instance where you have seen "him" Seth. Be honest. "satan" is the single LARGEST decieving element within Christianity which spends as much time on "him" as it does on God... When all along... IT is as much a part of YOU as your teeth or your arms & legs... IT is that which you DIE DAILY to... the YOU which is the OPPOSER of the Command of God, not some mythical imagined "devil"
This is another false dilemma. That our own carnal minds can act as an opposer/satan DOES NOT IN ITSELF exclude all other options. Example: PETER WAS A BEING, and what did Jesus call him?
If you examine the text closely Seth... you will SEE that JESUS
was addressing "Peter's" agreement with MEN... and with the tainted WAYS of MEN, and not GOD... Re-read it for yourself:Matt 16:23
-- but He turned and said unto Peter -- get thee behind Me "satan", thou are an offense unto Me, for [here it comes, bro, hope you get this!] ----> THOU SAVOREST NOT the THINGS that BE OF GOD, but THOSE that BE OF MEN
-- such as the "THINGS" that Peter... had just spoken!!!
These are the THINGS of MEN, Seth: (verses 21-22) from that time forth began JESUS to shew unto His disciples, how that HE MUST GO unto JERUSALEM, and SUFFER MANY THINGS of the elders and chief priests and scribes, ...and BE KILLED and be RAISED AGAIN the third day... Then PETER took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying [the things of men] --BE IT FAR FROM THEE, Lord... THIS SHALL NOT BE UNTO THEE...
It was THIS RENOUNCEMENT that was "satan", and was that which CHRIST
spoke against, for it was the THINGS of MEN... it was NOT Peter that CHRIST
spoke against... for goodness sake, bro... He, just 3 verses before, had NOTED that PETER would be GIVEN THE KEYS of the Kingdom of HEAVEN!!CHRIST
is here noting that PETER's words (not Peter himself), was that which was NOT in HARMONY with GOD and HIS WORD
Therefore the temptation presented to Christ was presented externally to him. How do I know this? Because Christ's mind was not in the Flesh, but in the bosom of his Father completely and without measure. Christ's mind was in God's REST and therefore according to GRACE, was kept supernaturally apart from sin. That God supernaturally changes our desires is exactly what the Gospel is about, and why we must GROW in the Spirit and leave ourselves behind.
No amount of preaching by either of us shall change the other Seth... Just like leaving behind ET, and the "trinity", ...have I left the Halloween character
that most Christianity believes in... You are welcome to keep it...
It is more than obvious to me that it is not your time to know this... and it is honorable for you to maintain your faith, until such time as GOD reveals... I walked 25 years without the understanding of the truth of the Salvation of ALL... so I am well aquainted with the DIVINE process... Only GOD can teach us bro...
But Scripture ALSO SAYS that he WAS TEMPTED (God cannot be tempted) and therefore TEMPTATION was PART of CHRIST's experience as a MAN... which does not equate to SINNING... SINNING is found within the submission to the TEMPTATION...
It says he was tempted. And it says he was without sin. Do you agree that Man can tempt God? That is why it says "Do not tempt the Lord your God."
I do not believe that JESUS
was GOD... He was the SON of GOD... He even noted that He had a GOD -- Mark 15:34 -- Matt 27:46
-- GOD was not tempted, JESUS
...was! GOD is SPIRIT, ...JESUS
was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6
Scripture notes it as you well know -- Heb 4:15
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Wait a minute. God was tempted? Yes he was. But he was not tempted BY SIN. And Christ was also WITHOUT SIN when temptation was presented to him.
Does that mean that God can FEEL tempted by man?
Sorry Seth, but this TEMPTATION of GOD is NOT the TEMPTATION of men... God noted that men TRIED Him by PROVOCATION... and DID recieve His anger because of it... they wandered for FORTY YEARS... instead of crossing over...
NO... "temptation" which is noted in Ps 95:8-11
which is quoted in Heb 3:8-10
... is NOT temptation to SIN... this was MEN PROVOKING GOD... NOT "tempting" Him to do EVIL... which is the SUBJECT we are discussing concerning the TEMPTATION of MEN... (of which CHRIST
So the answer to your question -- Can MAN TEMPT GOD (concerning EVIL)? is NO
... God cannot be TEMPTED (with EVIL)... He can however be PROVOKED... which is WHAT HAPPENED in this scenario...
To be continued in PART DOS