YOU are Satan...

[Pierac]

Yes, it's all context..

Terms like Adversary and Accuser are generic and non specific.  I could make the sin described as "Lust" into Satan the Adversary. 

How does Paul use the term Satan. for example... can Satan have messengers?

2Co 12:7  Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me --to keep me from exalting myself!

In 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, should the "messenger of Satan" be taken figuratively or literally? When Paul has used the term "messenger" throughout his epistles, he has always referred to a person. This understanding would be consistent with the context of 2 Corinthians 10, 11, 12 and 13 where he is speaking of opponents of the Corinthian church.

The phrase "messenger of Satan" should be taken literally, because Paul is referring to humans who personally oppose him within the context of those who seek to distort the message of Christ. And the "thorn" afflicting Paul does not appear to be limited to his current missionary journey to Corinth.

So what purpose did the "thorn" serve?
In 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul indicates that he was blessed to be the recipient of many revelations from Jesus Christ, which was an honor that could bring about personal pride and glory. However, God provided Paul human opponents with the intent of causing some kind of "weakness" in Paul, which resulted in his attitude of humility and humbleness.
The "weakness" that Paul writes about is not entirely clear; however, it apparently refers to difficulties caused by other people namely, persecution and insults (2 Cor 11:30-33; 2 Cor 12:10; 2 Cor 13:3-4). Not only did this cause personal pain and suffering for Paul, but the public challenge of his integrity and religious authority made his ministry more
difficult.

What was Paul's response to "a thorn in the flesh"?
What was the Lord's response to Paul? Paul did not like the "thorn in the flesh" and sought to get rid of it (2 Cor 12:8). While he pleaded with the Lord to remove it three times, the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." In response to Paul's desire, the Lord only gave Paul what he needed. The power of the Lord is more effective and experienced best when one is more dependent on Him; the will of God is not brought about by human effort. Paul's comments indicated his understanding of God's intent in allowing the presence of opponents to his ministry. While it discouraged his spiritual well being, Paul never complained. Instead he changed his outlook and reveled in it when he understood how it deepened his faith and dependence in God. Paul's testimony served as a wonderful example to the Corinthian church on how a Christian can respond to adversity.

From my own studies… Paul's messenger from Satan was more likely a Christian Jew from Jerusalem, who went behind Paul teaching the need to still follow the Law, while Paul taught the law of the Christ which is  "Grace."  (Gal 2:16)   (Gal 6:2)



Paul

[Pierac]

Quick questions to help me understand.

1. Where do you think everyone's "self" Satan dwells?  Mind, Body, Spirit, or all three? 

2. Would you still sin if you were were not "Satan"?

3. What happened to Jesus' Satan? He was ressurected from the dead but Satan has not yet been destroyed?

And I still fail to see the importance? What does it matter? Satan nor you play any role what so ever in which ressurection you will be in. 

Satan has no affect on God's Grace or Jesus' faith what so ever.

Paul

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother S!

One cannot "learn" obedience, unless DISOBEDIENCE has been presented to one as an option...  And that is what TEMPTATION ...does and IS... 

If it were NOT POSSIBLE that when the TEMPTATION was presented to CHRIST, He could not submit to it, then the "OVERCOMING" of TEMPTATION does not actually occur!

The "TEMPTATION" was "OVERCOME" because it was NOT POSSIBLE to DISOBEY... not by OBEDIENCE.

This I disagree with. One can learn obedience without disobedience being an option. By the way, I know you are well versed and totally correct about God's sovereignty, so the idea of "possible disobedience" is curious.

Let me try to put into words "POSSIBILITY" in conjunction with SOVEREIGNTY:

Within the Sovereignty of GOD lie ALL POSSIBILITIES bro... because they occur EXACTLY as the Declaration of YHVH noted them "end to beginning"... did not remove "POSSIBILITY".

The "choice" of men, is the same thing... Somehow we "choose", but those "choices" are already noted, and we are "choosing" according to that Divine Notation -- Isaiah 46:10-11

What I am saying is that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE with GOD, meaning that CHRIST had to be truly TEMPTED AS are we, and OVERCAME that TEMPTATION, but COULD have fallen... as the "ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE" with GOD enters in...

That CHRIST "could have fallen" simply means that ALL THINGS remain POSSIBLE with GOD... but though ALL things are POSSIBLE with God, does NOT MEAN that ALL POSSIBILITIES occur in manifestation... 

Had GOD so ordained, ...CHRIST would have fallen because He was a MAN... but it was NOT ORDAINED that He fall, rather it was ORDAINED that He OVERCOME... eh?    (I know that sounds a bit confusing, but to say that CHRIST "could NOT" have fallen, notes an "IMPOSSIBILITY" with GOD within His Sovereignty...

CHRIST was TRULY TEMPTED as are we, which means He could have fallen... however, THAT "potential fall" is NOT what was ORDAINED of YHVH to occur, ...so it DID NOT occur...

Consider this, one can learn obedience by starting as a blank slate, neither disobedient nor obedient. Then, one can learn obedience by being grown in it, without necessitating disobedience. Here is a practical example: I can teach my child not to touch the stove, not becuase my child may have touched it, or even wanted to touch it. However, if I sit my child down and explain and show her how hot it gets, she can learn obedience to that rule without ever having to touch the stove first, or having wanted to touch it.

I love you bro...  and thanks for presenting this "example scenario" for I have LIVED this scenario with my own son when he was little boy... I did EXACTLY as you propose... I thoroughly explained about a glass "wall heater" and the effects of touching it... Can you GUESS what happened? 

I have raised 3 kids (youngest is 32), and am partaking in the rearing of 10 grandkids (oldest is 16, youngest 6 months)... and believe me, the "SCHOOL of LIFE" concerning the concepts of "obedience and disobedience" shall they TEACH YOU, as you live the life of a father and grandfather!   

You say something interesting "when the temptation was PRESENTED" That is the distinguishing factor that recognizes that Christ was touched with the feeling of our infirmity apart from sin. There is a difference between a temptation PRESENTED and a temptation ENTERING. Christ overcame the the temptation presented, by being without sin in his mind.

TEMPTATION is not "presented" by a being... it is presented by that which OPPOSES the LAW which is the standard of HOLINESS...

EXAMPLE:  You have NO MONEY, and a piece of bubblegum lying in a box in the store, does not propose to you that you "steal it" to you, neither does a "red guy" jump up and hint to you this possibility...  the bubblegum lies within ownership of the store (which possession is rightfully within the LAW), and it is YOUR DESIRE to CHEW IT, that "presents" the TEMPTATION to relieve the store of its possession of it... 

It is WITHIN our makeup that this "scenario" which has TWO POSSIBLE OUTCOMES, takes place as James 1:14 aptly notes... naming this process to be the SAME in EVERY MAN... including JESUS... who though He was the Son of God, ...was also the SON of MAN...

Regardless of your perception of TEMPTATION... IT, in itself is NOT SIN... It is the OPTION which avails the scenario in which one either OVERCOMES, or SUBMITS TO... CHRIST OVERCAME... ...we SUBMIT... 

But Scripture ALSO SAYS that he WAS TEMPTED (God cannot be tempted) and therefore TEMPTATION was PART of CHRIST's experience as a MAN... which does not equate to SINNING...  SINNING is found within the submission to the TEMPTATION...

CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Luke 19:10 -- and EVERY MAN is TEMPTED in the SAME WAY:

James 1:14 -- but EVERY MAN... [including the "man" CHRIST] ...is TEMPTED, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire] and enticed...

THIS, does NOT mean that one "ENTICED" is SINNING or has SINNED... it is when the ENTICEMENT is INDULGED [concieved] that SIN is born:

James 1:15 -- THEN, ...when LUST hath CONCIEVED [has been indulged], it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished, bringeth forth death...

Again, the James scripture is talking about sin in trespass. Jesus talked about sin within the heart. He that looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultery already in his heart. JAMES is talking about when the sin in the heart (lust) becomes sin worked outwardly.

The LUST you are speaking of brother S... is NOT the desire males have naturally for females.  God gave us to be ATTRACTED to one another, and it is NOT SIN to be attracted to females or vice versa...  It is SIN to engage the mind SEXUALLY of a Woman... which is gone beyond "attraction"... and is INWARDLY INDULGING in UNLAWFUL process... and I do NOT suggest JESUS ever did this... The NATURAL attraction He had for women, as a man, presented FURTHER pondering to Him which He REJECTED...

Desire of WOMAN is not SIN... It is NATURAL and GIVEN of GOD to men... That I desired my wife because she was beautiful did NOT mean that I had sinned as I observed her beauty... To LUST in the HEART of a WOMAN is to have made a SEXUAL fantasy of HER, not just "desire" her... and wish to get to know her...

Do you think that when GOD gave Eve to Adam, and Adam went "whoa-man"  That Adam had therefore SINNED?  I do not... I believe that GOD gave Eve to Adam IN HOLINESS... and Adam's first ATTRACTION to Eve was NOT a SIN... it was a NATURAL reaction to her beauty, and to the potential companionship they could enjoy...

We live in a LIFE CONTEXT which is MUCH more complicated than in the day of CHRIST... for on a daily basis, we are assaulted with TEMPTATION, not only in human encounter, but in the presentation of MEDIA and common attitude... which today READILY accepts SINFUL practices as "alternative lifestyles"... 

Jesus was without sin. Yes it does say he was tested, but it never says that the temptation ENTERED IN.

Actually it says He was TEMPTED in several places in the WORD... It is your present observation which desires (not lusts  ) to insert the word "TESTED"... and thereby negating what actually occured.

The biggest difference in our present observations, is that you must find a way around James 1:14 and explain how it applies to JESUS in different way than it applies to ALL "other" MEN, ...I do not...

You are welcome to believe as you do bro... I see it differently.  Either JESUS OVERCAME that which we DO NOT... or it was a sham.



...willieH 

[Molly]

Telling me I am satan is a lie.  Can satan cast out satan?

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)


Luke 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.


This world belongs to satan.  The fact that I am not of this world, proves that I am not satan, nor do I belong to him.  He has no dominion over me even though I am in this world.


2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8


I am not satan, nor was I ever satan, but always predestinated from the beginning to be glorified.


30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
--Rom 8

[trettep]

Quick questions to help me understand.

1. Where do you think everyone's "self" Satan dwells?  Mind, Body, Spirit, or all three? 

2. Would you still sin if you were were not "Satan"?

3. What happened to Jesus' Satan? He was ressurected from the dead but Satan has not yet been destroyed?

And I still fail to see the importance? What does it matter? Satan nor you play any role what so ever in which ressurection you will be in. 

Satan has no affect on God's Grace or Jesus' faith what so ever.

Paul

Satan is spirit - for it is the exhibition of the disobedient nature of man.

Paul

[trettep]

This is a great discussion gang and I want to add my 2 cents.

I just don't think Jesus, God, us and all creation is an individual thing. In other words Jesus is not some isolated person living in Tucson or in Heaven or wherever. Sure there is a human we fasten the name of Jesus Christ to but this is a personification of who and what the Christ really is. Just like there is a human I attach my name and essence to yet my humanness is not really me, yet of course it is me to some degree.

OK, what I want to say is this……………….The divine within all of us can never succumb to temptation yet it experiences temptation just because of its association with the flesh. I really think this is what God is trying to teach us. This is not a guy with a halo over here and a being with a pitchfork over there, these are the teachings of each and every person. Within the same lump is the Christ essence and the satan essence and the wisdom essence and so much more. This is all taught in parables and allegories and also using the physical. The physical 'fleshes' out these truthful realities in so many ways.

The Divine within me will never sin, cannot sin. It battles constantly with all that is enmity against It. The flesh essence of all things is a vehicle for God to teach us things. Once it's purpose is complete it will die.

Where this discussion and all discussions get way off base for me is when we start seeing Jesus, God and all things as PRIMARILY separate entities. The usage of the  separate entity picture is to make truth and reality palatable to us but I think we have to grow out of this mindset and see God and His words to us for what they are and that is the highway to who and what He is.

cp

The way I understand it Claypot is that by having Christ in us, then that carnal exhibition in us is being destroyed.  But yes, I agree that they are two separate entities.  For example, if we have Christ and then we do fall back and sin then we can't say that Christ in us sinned for Christ is still faithful, but it is us that have sinned via our spirit which is to bear witness with His Spirit that we are the Sons of God. 

Paul

Hey Paul.

What I see is that Christ is not in us but 'He' is not a 'he' at all. Christ is not PRIMARILY a physical essence. The physical representation of Christ is a vehicle for us to use to arrive at its real meaning which is God Himself, the Spirit, the Spiritual realm and essence.

I don't even see 2 separate entities. You, I, God are all in this craziness together…… the same lump so to speak.

You say Christ is still faithful and I agree. That which is within that is called the Christ is perfect and faithful and will never fail 'us'. It cannot fail for it is God 'Himself' Who is not really a 'Him' but you understand I think.

cp

So what part do you see being annihilated?

Paul

The carnal 'part' when God is done with it.

cp

I see that as well.  I like the last part you said "when God is done with it" because I believe likewise.

Paul

[trettep]

Yes, it's all context..

Terms like Adversary and Accuser are generic and non specific.  I could make the sin described as "Lust" into Satan the Adversary. 

How does Paul use the term Satan. for example... can Satan have messengers?

2Co 12:7  Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me --to keep me from exalting myself!

In 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, should the "messenger of Satan" be taken figuratively or literally? When Paul has used the term "messenger" throughout his epistles, he has always referred to a person. This understanding would be consistent with the context of 2 Corinthians 10, 11, 12 and 13 where he is speaking of opponents of the Corinthian church.

The phrase "messenger of Satan" should be taken literally, because Paul is referring to humans who personally oppose him within the context of those who seek to distort the message of Christ. And the "thorn" afflicting Paul does not appear to be limited to his current missionary journey to Corinth.

So what purpose did the "thorn" serve?
In 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul indicates that he was blessed to be the recipient of many revelations from Jesus Christ, which was an honor that could bring about personal pride and glory. However, God provided Paul human opponents with the intent of causing some kind of "weakness" in Paul, which resulted in his attitude of humility and humbleness.
The "weakness" that Paul writes about is not entirely clear; however, it apparently refers to difficulties caused by other people namely, persecution and insults (2 Cor 11:30-33; 2 Cor 12:10; 2 Cor 13:3-4). Not only did this cause personal pain and suffering for Paul, but the public challenge of his integrity and religious authority made his ministry more
difficult.

What was Paul's response to "a thorn in the flesh"?
What was the Lord's response to Paul? Paul did not like the "thorn in the flesh" and sought to get rid of it (2 Cor 12:8). While he pleaded with the Lord to remove it three times, the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." In response to Paul's desire, the Lord only gave Paul what he needed. The power of the Lord is more effective and experienced best when one is more dependent on Him; the will of God is not brought about by human effort. Paul's comments indicated his understanding of God's intent in allowing the presence of opponents to his ministry. While it discouraged his spiritual well being, Paul never complained. Instead he changed his outlook and reveled in it when he understood how it deepened his faith and dependence in God. Paul's testimony served as a wonderful example to the Corinthian church on how a Christian can respond to adversity.

From my own studies… Paul's messenger from Satan was more likely a Christian Jew from Jerusalem, who went behind Paul teaching the need to still follow the Law, while Paul taught the law of the Christ which is  "Grace."  (Gal 2:16)   (Gal 6:2)



Paul

Barnabas shows that the "thorn" represented a "terrible nature".  And that the reference is applied to those that desire to remove the scarlet (sin) will suffer the thorn.  Those that suffer the terrible nature shall receive a crown.  It is interesting to note that He that suffered the terrible nature in an effort to remove all sin had received a CROWN of THORNs.  Barnabas went on to say that those desiring the Kingdom must lay hold of the Lord thru tribulation and affliction.

Paul

[martincisneros]

Telling me I am satan is a lie.  Can satan cast out satan?

Yeah, there's no question that Christians claiming to be Satan are cursing the Blood by which they've been sanctified and doing despite to the Spirit of Grace and crucifying to themselves afresh the Son of God and holding Him up to public contempt.  Zero difference from calling Christ Jesus Himself Satan.  Zero difference after experiencing His grace.  Zero difference.  It's heretical gnosticism, from the pit of Hell, and will burn in Hell for the ages of ages anyone who won't repent of that error.  It's the furthest thing from Biblical Christianity.  For this reason, among others, according to St. Paul, many of 'em are sick and some of 'em have died!  You can't touch the Temple of the Holy Ghost that way, God's Anointeds, and attempt to do harm to His prophets in that way.  Not and get away with it.  There's no way of doing it and avoiding being given over to a reprobate mind.  Minimally, this is the exaltation of sin consciousness against the Blood of Jesus Christ until the harvest has reached maturity; it's iniquity that's reached fullness, and it's a scattering work against Him that is not gathering the nations.  It's idolatry and being ignorant of the righteousness of God -- seeking to establish one's own righteousness by the ministry of condemnation.  It's unquestionably fallen from grace!  It's additionally the doctrine of the Kabbalists and Freemasonery.  I was in the occult in my preteens and recognize the doctrine all too well!

[claypot]

Telling me I am satan is a lie.  Can satan cast out satan?

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)


Luke 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.


This world belongs to satan.  The fact that I am not of this world, proves that I am not satan, nor do I belong to him.  He has no dominion over me even though I am in this world.


2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8


I am not satan, nor was I ever satan, but always predestinated from the beginning to be glorified.


30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
--Rom 8

Molly, who is telling you that you are Satan?

Paul's response is right on IMO.

You are not Satan any more than you are Wisdom, but you show characteristics of each.

cp

[trettep]

Telling me I am satan is a lie.  Can satan cast out satan?

Yeah, there's no question that Christians claiming to be Satan are cursing the Blood by which they've been sanctified and doing despite to the Spirit of Grace and crucifying to themselves afresh the Son of God and holding Him up to public contempt.  Zero difference from calling Christ Jesus Himself Satan.  Zero difference after experiencing His grace.  Zero difference.  It's heretical gnosticism, from the pit of Hell, and will burn in Hell for the ages of ages anyone who won't repent of that error.  It's the furthest thing from Biblical Christianity.  For this reason, among others, according to St. Paul, many of 'em are sick and some of 'em have died!  You can't touch the Temple of the Holy Ghost that way, God's Anointeds, and attempt to do harm to His prophets in that way.  Not and get away with it.  There's no way of doing it and avoiding being given over to a reprobate mind.  Minimally, this is the exaltation of sin consciousness against the Blood of Jesus Christ until the harvest has reached maturity; it's iniquity that's reached fullness, and it's a scattering work against Him that is not gathering the nations.  It's idolatry and being ignorant of the righteousness of God -- seeking to establish one's own righteousness by the ministry of condemnation.  It's unquestionably fallen from grace!  It's additionally the doctrine of the Kabbalists and Freemasonery.  I was in the occult in my preteens and recognize the doctrine all too well!

Let me clarify then because I think this post could be aimed at my comments.  At no time do I say that Christians are Satan.  I say that we are Satan.  This is a direct reference to the disobedient nature of man.  So if someone is a Christian then they are no longer disobedient.  Also, if we are no longer disobedient, then we are no longer us but rather we are now Him.

Paul

[Seth]

Hi WillieH

One cannot "learn" obedience, unless DISOBEDIENCE has been presented to one as an option...  And that is what TEMPTATION ...does and IS... 
Let me try to put into words "POSSIBILITY" in conjunction with SOVEREIGNTY:

Within the Sovereignty of GOD lie ALL POSSIBILITIES bro... because they occur EXACTLY as the Declaration of YHVH noted them "end to beginning"... did not remove "POSSIBILITY".

The "choice" of men, is the same thing... Somehow we "choose", but those "choices" are already noted, and we are "choosing" according to that Divine Notation -- Isaiah 46:10-11

What I am saying is that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE with GOD, meaning that CHRIST had to be truly TEMPTED AS are we, and OVERCAME that TEMPTATION, but COULD have fallen... as the "ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE" with GOD enters in...

That CHRIST "could have fallen" simply means that ALL THINGS remain POSSIBLE with GOD... but though ALL things are POSSIBLE with God, does NOT MEAN that ALL POSSIBILITIES occur in manifestation... 

Had GOD so ordained, ...CHRIST would have fallen because He was a MAN... but it was NOT ORDAINED that He fall, rather it was ORDAINED that He OVERCOME... eh?    (I know that sounds a bit confusing, but to say that CHRIST "could NOT" have fallen, notes an "IMPOSSIBILITY" with GOD within His Sovereignty...

It's not really confusing becuase you need to factor in something. The reason it was not ordained that he fall is because God himself was keeping his mind. This is really the foundation of the Gospel itself: God's rest. By what Peter described as the impartation of the Divine Nature, it is GOD that changes our desires from carnal and lustful to purified. That is what makes it all of him and not of us, why we do not save ourselves from sin, but rely on the Holy Spirit. The question is, how much of the impartation of the Divine Nature did CHrist have? He had it completely. This is why Paul makes the EXCEPTION that CHrist was "without sin." He was without sin, not by his own struggles against a carnal mind, but by God's Divine intervention. This is why we must rightly divide the difference being presented in the NT between Christ having a fear of death and Christ also being in God's rest concerning SIN.

I love you bro...  and thanks for presenting this "example scenario" for I have LIVED this scenario with my own son when he was little boy... I did EXACTLY as you propose... I thoroughly explained about a glass "wall heater" and the effects of touching it... Can you GUESS what happened? 

I have raised 3 kids (youngest is 32), and am partaking in the rearing of 10 grandkids (oldest is 16, youngest 6 months)... and believe me, the "SCHOOL of LIFE" concerning the concepts of "obedience and disobedience" shall they TEACH YOU, as you live the life of a father and grandfather!   

Can I guess what happened? I don't have to guess  . They disobeyed? But why? Because they were not without sin. That is why Jesus is an example to them too. 

EXAMPLE:  You have NO MONEY, and a piece of bubblegum lying in a box in the store, does not propose to you that you "steal it" to you, neither does a "red guy" jump up and hint to you this possibility...  the bubblegum lies within ownership of the store (which possession is rightfully within the LAW), and it is YOUR DESIRE to CHEW IT, that "presents" the TEMPTATION to relieve the store of its possession of it... 

Or a person can present the temptation. While I understand your theory about Satan not being a being, it is not something that can dogmatically relied upon to analyze Christ's temptation with Satan. WillieH, Satan just means "opposer." If an angel-being is sent by God to oppose something, that being becomes an opposer/satan. You probably could acknoledge that there can be many different types of satans, without the necessity to EXLUDE it as a being. This is another false dilemma. That our own carnal minds can act as an opposer/satan DOES NOT IN ITSELF exclude all other options. Example: PETER WAS A BEING, and what did Jesus call him?

Therefore the temptation presented to Christ was presented externally to him. How do I know this? Because Christ's mind was not in the Flesh, but in the bosom of his Father completely and without measure. Christ's mind was in God's REST and therefore according to GRACE, was kept supernaturally apart from sin. That God supernaturally changes our desires is exactly what the Gospel is about, and why we must GROW in the Spirit and leave ourselves behind.

But Scripture ALSO SAYS that he WAS TEMPTED (God cannot be tempted) and therefore TEMPTATION was PART of CHRIST's experience as a MAN... which does not equate to SINNING...  SINNING is found within the submission to the TEMPTATION...

It says he was tempted. And it says he was without sin. Do you agree that Man can tempt God? That is why it says "Do not tempt the Lord your God."

Hebrews 3:8-10
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Wait a minute. God was tempted? Yes he was. But he was not tempted BY SIN. And Christ was also WITHOUT SIN when temptation was presented to him.

Does that mean that God can FEEL tempted by man?

James 1:14 -- but EVERY MAN... [including the "man" CHRIST] ...is TEMPTED, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire] and enticed...

THIS, does NOT mean that one "ENTICED" is SINNING or has SINNED... it is when the ENTICEMENT is INDULGED [concieved] that SIN is born:

James 1:15 -- THEN, ...when LUST hath CONCIEVED [has been indulged], it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished, bringeth forth death...

[/quote]

Brother, you are doing exactly what Peter admonished us NOT to do, that is to take a SINGLE scripture and establish it as a single/private interpretation. You do realize that sin is within before it is worked outwardly, according the scriptures right?

The LUST you are speaking of brother S... is NOT the desire males have naturally for females.  God gave us to be ATTRACTED to one another, and it is NOT SIN to be attracted to females or vice versa...  It is SIN to engage the mind SEXUALLY of a Woman... which is gone beyond "attraction"... and is INWARDLY INDULGING in UNLAWFUL process... and I do NOT suggest JESUS ever did this... The NATURAL attraction He had for women, as a man, presented FURTHER pondering to Him which He REJECTED...

Desire of WOMAN is not SIN... It is NATURAL and GIVEN of GOD to men... That I desired my wife because she was beautiful did NOT mean that I had sinned as I observed her beauty... To LUST in the HEART of a WOMAN is to have made a SEXUAL fantasy of HER, not just "desire" her... and wish to get to know her...

I know it is not a sin to be attracted to females. It is a sin to look upon them with lust. This is how I know Jesus never did that.

Actually it says He was TEMPTED in several places in the WORD... It is your present observation which desires (not lusts  ) to insert the word "TESTED"... and thereby negating what actually occured.

The biggest difference in our present observations, is that you must find a way around James 1:14 and explain how it applies to JESUS in different way than it applies to ALL "other" MEN, ...I do not...

You are welcome to believe as you do bro... I see it differently.  Either JESUS OVERCAME that which we DO NOT... or it was a sham.

WillieH, I am not inserting the word "tested." Look it up, the word used is tested, that is what it means.

peirazō
to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.

Jesus was enticed and scrutinized, tested. But nothing suggests that any sinful feeling entered into his mind. And WillieH, what would be a sham is to say that Christ overcame anything of himself. Sinful thoughts were not needed for Christ to overcome. It was his FEAR OF DEATH. By overcoming his fear of death, it made him able to reconcile the world.

[Pierac]

Quick questions to help me understand.

1. Where do you think everyone's "self" Satan dwells?  Mind, Body, Spirit, or all three? 

2. Would you still sin if you were were not "Satan"?

3. What happened to Jesus' Satan? He was ressurected from the dead but Satan has not yet been destroyed?

And I still fail to see the importance? What does it matter? Satan nor you play any role what so ever in which ressurection you will be in. 

Satan has no affect on God's Grace or Jesus' faith what so ever.

Paul

Satan is spirit - for it is the exhibition of the disobedient nature of man.

Paul

I don't understand, are you saying your Spirit is what causes you to sin?

[Pierac]

Yes, it's all context..

Terms like Adversary and Accuser are generic and non specific.  I could make the sin described as "Lust" into Satan the Adversary. 

How does Paul use the term Satan. for example... can Satan have messengers?

2Co 12:7  Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me --to keep me from exalting myself!

In 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, should the "messenger of Satan" be taken figuratively or literally? When Paul has used the term "messenger" throughout his epistles, he has always referred to a person. This understanding would be consistent with the context of 2 Corinthians 10, 11, 12 and 13 where he is speaking of opponents of the Corinthian church.

The phrase "messenger of Satan" should be taken literally, because Paul is referring to humans who personally oppose him within the context of those who seek to distort the message of Christ. And the "thorn" afflicting Paul does not appear to be limited to his current missionary journey to Corinth.

So what purpose did the "thorn" serve?
In 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul indicates that he was blessed to be the recipient of many revelations from Jesus Christ, which was an honor that could bring about personal pride and glory. However, God provided Paul human opponents with the intent of causing some kind of "weakness" in Paul, which resulted in his attitude of humility and humbleness.
The "weakness" that Paul writes about is not entirely clear; however, it apparently refers to difficulties caused by other people namely, persecution and insults (2 Cor 11:30-33; 2 Cor 12:10; 2 Cor 13:3-4). Not only did this cause personal pain and suffering for Paul, but the public challenge of his integrity and religious authority made his ministry more
difficult.

What was Paul's response to "a thorn in the flesh"?
What was the Lord's response to Paul? Paul did not like the "thorn in the flesh" and sought to get rid of it (2 Cor 12:8). While he pleaded with the Lord to remove it three times, the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." In response to Paul's desire, the Lord only gave Paul what he needed. The power of the Lord is more effective and experienced best when one is more dependent on Him; the will of God is not brought about by human effort. Paul's comments indicated his understanding of God's intent in allowing the presence of opponents to his ministry. While it discouraged his spiritual well being, Paul never complained. Instead he changed his outlook and reveled in it when he understood how it deepened his faith and dependence in God. Paul's testimony served as a wonderful example to the Corinthian church on how a Christian can respond to adversity.

From my own studies… Paul's messenger from Satan was more likely a Christian Jew from Jerusalem, who went behind Paul teaching the need to still follow the Law, while Paul taught the law of the Christ which is  "Grace."  (Gal 2:16)   (Gal 6:2)



Paul

Barnabas shows that the "thorn" represented a "terrible nature".  And that the reference is applied to those that desire to remove the scarlet (sin) will suffer the thorn.  Those that suffer the terrible nature shall receive a crown.  It is interesting to note that He that suffered the terrible nature in an effort to remove all sin had received a CROWN of THORNs.  Barnabas went on to say that those desiring the Kingdom must lay hold of the Lord thru tribulation and affliction.

Paul

You need to read the Old Testament more...


Num 33:55  But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land before you, then those whom you allow to remain will be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your side, and will cause you trouble in the land where you will be living.

Jos 23:13  know with certainty that the LORD your God will not continue to drive these nations out from before you; but they will be a snare and a trap to you, and a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Trettep,  Thorn in the flesh is a well known Old Testament Hebraic way of saying… "Pain in the ass!"

Don't seek support for your beliefs, seek the truth! This way you will never be disappointed.

Paul is telling us he has been given a pain in the ass (Person) directly from Satan. And God refused to remove this prick from his life! Can you not relate…



Peace fellow seeker,
Paul

[Molly]

The question is, how much of the impartation of the Divine Nature did CHrist have?

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily



Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God...


"fulness" [of the Godhead]
G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion




"repletion"

The condition of being fully supplied or completely filled.
A state of excessive fullness.
Superabundant fullness
Being filled to the point of bursting.

[Pierac]

The question is, how much of the impartation of the Divine Nature did CHrist have?

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God...


"fulness" [of the Godhead]
G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion

"repletion"

The condition of being fully supplied or completely filled.
A state of excessive fullness.
Superabundant fullness
Being filled to the point of bursting.

Godhead is an incorrect term... The more correct way would read…

Col 2:9  For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

This is the description of the term Messiah, or Christ! The Anointed one!

 As to Col 1:15

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

How does one who is firstborn of all creation relate to that which is out beginning or end? How is that which has a beginning become to be the image of that with has no beginning?

I know the answer Molly, but I can't show you here on this forum! It's not related to U.R.  and too controversial for our forum!


P.M. me if your interested

Paul

[Molly]

"firstborn" [of all creation]

G4416
πρωτοτόκος
prōtotokos
pro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).

A word combined FROM:

G4413
πρῶτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.


G4253
πρό
pro
pro
A primary preposition; "fore", that is, in front of, prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago, before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.



AND:


G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.



37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
--Mat 23

Psalm 63:7
Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.


God as a mother-hen to his chicks.  Superior in all things, before all things--the 'mother' of creation.


16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

--Col 1

[trettep]

Quick questions to help me understand.

1. Where do you think everyone's "self" Satan dwells?  Mind, Body, Spirit, or all three? 

2. Would you still sin if you were were not "Satan"?

3. What happened to Jesus' Satan? He was ressurected from the dead but Satan has not yet been destroyed?

And I still fail to see the importance? What does it matter? Satan nor you play any role what so ever in which ressurection you will be in. 

Satan has no affect on God's Grace or Jesus' faith what so ever.

Paul

Satan is spirit - for it is the exhibition of the disobedient nature of man.

Paul

I don't understand, are you saying your Spirit is what causes you to sin?

Paul I'm saying it IS indeed a spirit that causes us to sin.  It is known in scripture as the "spirit of disobedience".  This is our spirit when we are disobedient.

Paul

[Pierac]

Quick questions to help me understand.

1. Where do you think everyone's "self" Satan dwells?  Mind, Body, Spirit, or all three? 

2. Would you still sin if you were were not "Satan"?

3. What happened to Jesus' Satan? He was ressurected from the dead but Satan has not yet been destroyed?

And I still fail to see the importance? What does it matter? Satan nor you play any role what so ever in which ressurection you will be in. 

Satan has no affect on God's Grace or Jesus' faith what so ever.

Paul

Satan is spirit - for it is the exhibition of the disobedient nature of man.

Paul

I don't understand, are you saying your Spirit is what causes you to sin?

Paul I'm saying it IS indeed a spirit that causes us to sin.  It is known in scripture as the "spirit of disobedience".  This is our spirit when we are disobedient.

Paul

Indeed we sin in both Body and Spirit…
2Co 7:1  Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

But also soul…

KJV Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


NASB Psa 24:4  He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood And has not sworn deceitfully.

Trettep  we do not need a Spirit called Satan within us to Sin.  Man's  whole being was corrupt from the beginning! Why? Because man has always been flesh!

 1Th 5:23  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You can not separate a human being into a body, soul and spirit.  As they combine to make up the whole person.

Mat 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Gen 6:5  Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Mat 15:19  "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

So what does this really mean? How does Satan and Jesus himself play into this?

Well, we know that the wages of sin is death!

We also know we have sin in our whole being as shown in the above scriptures…  Body , Soul, and Spirit.

A major factor in the meaning of Christ's Atonement concerns the matter of His death. Did Christ really die? That is, did all of Him die or was it only part (his body as some teach) that died?

This is an important point for us to consider and understand. A vast number of preachers and theologians accept that only part of Christ actually died at the time of His crucifixion while the rest of His personality continued to live without interruption and in a complete conscious and active state. In a word, they are saying that the real Christ did not actually die on the tree of crucifixion.

If Christ did not in fact die (or did not die completely) then His Atonement becomes thoroughly ineffective. This means that you and I, and all Christians, do not have a savior (1 Corinthians 15:12–17). You had better be assured in your mind that Christ did die and that all His person died, or the teaching of Christianity about the efficacy of Christ's Atonement is destroyed.

Note this point. There can be no forgiveness of sins unless someone pays for those sins through the act of death.  "And for this cause he [Christ] is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternall [eonian] inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator [a contract victim in the Old Testament was an animal sacrifice and in the New Testament it was Christ]. For a testament is of force after men are dead; otherwise it is no strength at all while the testator lives" Hebrews 9:15–17

The truth is Christ Jesus did in fact DIE, just like you and I will die. He did not possess some kind of "immortal soul" in the Platonic fashion of explanation. Christ did not go to heaven immediately at His death, like so many people imagine Him doing today. He was dead in His grave for three days—thoroughly dead and totally unconscious.

The following scriptures show that Christ Jesus was indeed just like any other human who ever lived on earth. This means that when Jesus became flesh (Luke 1:35) Jesus was like all human beings: He had a body, a soul, and a spirit. The Bible refers, to His body (John 2:21), to His soul (John 12:27), and to His spirit (Mark 8:12).
So here we have Jesus the Christ represented in the full and whole nature of man.

But now we come to the nitty-gritty. Is it possible for the spirit of humans to have sins on it? Indeed! The apostle Paul said, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1

Without doubt, the spirit part of a person can be filthy with sins. Indeed, there are many scriptures that speak about such sins. (1 John 4:6 , Hosea 4:12; 5:4 , Num 5:14 ; 30 , Isaiah 19:14).

Since it is clear that all humans possess a nature of body, soul, and spirit, and we all have committed sins in the body, the soul, and the spirit, it then follows that Christ (Who also was made up of body, soul, and spirit) had to take our place in all three areas of His and our nature. The only way that we could be cleansed of our sins in the body, soul, and spirit was for Christ to take those sins on His human nature and die in His body, in His soul, and His spirit.

This means that when Jesus the Christ breathed His last breath and committed His spirit to the Father, He was returning the life-giving element of God that gave Him the ability to live. ( Ecclesiastes 12:7 ).

He, as a conscious personality, was not returning to the Father in heaven because three days later after His resurrection He told Mary "Touch me not; for I have not ascended to my Father"  (John 20:17). When Jesus let the spirit of life go back to God, He died! This happens to all humans when we die (read Ecclesiastes 12:7 again).

Did Jesus' Body, Spirit and Soul stay dead? Peter tells us in … 1 Peter 3:18, Christ's spirit was once made alive again. There is great significance to all this.

It must be recognized that the spirit that returned to the Father at Christ's death was not the living PERSONALITY of Jesus the Christ. Had it been the personality that went back to the Father (with all the factors that constitute the conscious personality), then Jesus' statement after His resurrection three days later would be an utter contradiction. Christ said, "Touch me not because I have not yet ascended to my Father" (John 19:17). It is clear the person of Jesus the Christ did not immediately return to heaven!

So, at the crucifixion Christ simply yielded up the spirit that made Him alive. In a word, He died and this means in His body, in His soul and, with no more spirit within Him to sustain His life, He died in spirit as well. Now this teaching of scripture does not set too well with what has become known as "orthodox" Christianity, but it is nonetheless true according to the divine Word of God. The simple fact is, when Christ yielded up the spirit to the Father in heaven, that spirit was not the conscious personality of Christ returning to God the Father.

The Atonement that Christ legally effected for us is a simple doctrine to understand if one applies the basic teachings of the Old and New Testaments on how God deals with sins. Had mankind not adopted the false teaching of the immortality of the soul" "the immortality of the spirit" principally from Platonic philosophy, the Atonement would have been understood long ago. (1Ti 6:16) But man has not wanted the teachings of the Scripture to prevail in this matter. They want to believe the first lie of the serpent that man would not die if he sinned. Of course, God said just the opposite (Genesis 2:17) and man has been dying in body, soul, and spirit ever since. Yes, we all die in the same fashion as did God's own Son, Jesus the Christ[/b].

Indeed Jesus died like all men. However, Jesus was special... He was God's Son (Luke 1:35) Made to be an offering for sin! (Isa 53:10)… Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in[/u] Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus paid all the wages of sin for us! the wage of death, in all body, spirit and soul!

So, What happened to Jesus' own "Satan" trettep? 



Paul

[Molly]

Did Jesus' Body, Spirit and Soul stay dead? Peter tells us in … 1 Peter 3:18, Christ's spirit was once made alive again. There is great significance to all this.

What Bible are you reading?  The King James says this--



18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


1Peter 3:18


His body might be in the grave, but he's not.

[Pierac]

Did Jesus' Body, Spirit and Soul stay dead? Peter tells us in … 1 Peter 3:18, Christ's spirit was once made alive again. There is great significance to all this.

What Bible are you reading?  The King James says this--



18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


1Peter 3:18


His body might be in the grave, but he's not.

The wages for sin is ?

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
When? After He was seated at the right hand of God? Or while his body was dead in a hole in the ground?  1Peter3:18 has no time line attached sister, You assume Jesus could only talk to the dead while he was dead, yet you say he was not dead?  Think about it. 


Paul

[Molly]

Did Jesus' Body, Spirit and Soul stay dead? Peter tells us in … 1 Peter 3:18, Christ's spirit was once made alive again. There is great significance to all this.

What Bible are you reading?  The King James says this--



18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


1Peter 3:18


His body might be in the grave, but he's not.

The wages for sin is ?

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
When? After He was seated at the right hand of God? Or while his body was dead in a hole in the ground?  1Peter3:18 has no time line attached sister, You assume Jesus could only talk to the dead while he was dead, yet you say he was not dead?  Think about it. 


Paul

As if they could kill the Spirit of God...


No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

--John 10


How is he going to take his life up again if he doesn't exist to take it up again?





..the second man is the Lord from heaven

--1 Cor 15:47

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother S...

I will split this into 2 parts as the answer will be quite long! 

PART UNO...

One cannot "learn" obedience, unless DISOBEDIENCE has been presented to one as an option...  And that is what TEMPTATION ...does and IS... 
Let me try to put into words "POSSIBILITY" in conjunction with SOVEREIGNTY:

Within the Sovereignty of GOD lie ALL POSSIBILITIES bro... because they occur EXACTLY as the Declaration of YHVH noted them "end to beginning"... did not remove "POSSIBILITY".

The "choice" of men, is the same thing... Somehow we "choose", but those "choices" are already noted, and we are "choosing" according to that Divine Notation -- Isaiah 46:10-11

What I am saying is that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE with GOD, meaning that CHRIST had to be truly TEMPTED AS are we, and OVERCAME that TEMPTATION, but COULD have fallen... as the "ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE" with GOD enters in...

That CHRIST "could have fallen" simply means that ALL THINGS remain POSSIBLE with GOD... but though ALL things are POSSIBLE with God, does NOT MEAN that ALL POSSIBILITIES occur in manifestation... 

Had GOD so ordained, ...CHRIST would have fallen because He was a MAN... but it was NOT ORDAINED that He fall, rather it was ORDAINED that He OVERCOME... eh?    (I know that sounds a bit confusing, but to say that CHRIST "could NOT" have fallen, notes an "IMPOSSIBILITY" with GOD within His Sovereignty...

It's not really confusing becuase you need to factor in something. The reason it was not ordained that he fall is because God himself was keeping his mind. This is really the foundation of the Gospel itself: God's rest. By what Peter described as the impartation of the Divine Nature, it is GOD that changes our desires from carnal and lustful to purified. That is what makes it all of him and not of us, why we do not save ourselves from sin, but rely on the Holy Spirit. The question is, how much of the impartation of the Divine Nature did CHrist have? He had it completely.

May I interrupt this for a moment -- mm-kay?

GOD ordains EVERYTHING... JESUS "not sinning" is as ordained as PHARAOH not letting the children GO...

We are actually LIVING parts of YHVH... and He is about revealing to the BODY, what the HEAD has ALWAYS KNOWN -- Good and Evil...

JESUS as the SON of GOD, had the DIVINE nature... but as the SON of MAN, He NATURALLY had the NATURE of MAN... which means that the proposals of the FLESH would arise in Him, and it is over those proposals that He OVERCAME... (which by the way was ORDAINED before it occured -- Rev 13:8)

This is why Paul makes the EXCEPTION that CHrist was "without sin." He was without sin, not by his own struggles against a carnal mind, but by God's Divine intervention. This is why we must rightly divide the difference being presented in the NT between Christ having a fear of death and Christ also being in God's rest concerning SIN.

CHRIST was "without sin" because He OVERCAME Temptation bro... If GOD made it IMPOSSIBLE for Him to SIN... then there is something IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... GOD still, even though He had ORDAINED CHRIST to be sin-less... included the actual OVERCOMING of TEMPTATION, for there is NOTHING that is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD...

I love you bro...  and thanks for presenting this "example scenario" for I have LIVED this scenario with my own son when he was little boy... I did EXACTLY as you propose... I thoroughly explained about a glass "wall heater" and the effects of touching it... Can you GUESS what happened? 

I have raised 3 kids (youngest is 32), and am partaking in the rearing of 10 grandkids (oldest is 16, youngest 6 months)... and believe me, the "SCHOOL of LIFE" concerning the concepts of "obedience and disobedience" shall they TEACH YOU, as you live the life of a father and grandfather!   

Can I guess what happened? I don't have to guess  . They disobeyed? But why? Because they were not without sin. That is why Jesus is an example to them too. 

You missed my point... teaching someone obedience does NOT accomplish it as you suggested in your post bro...  Obedience is LEARNED through EXPERIENTIAL living... and in the NATURAL, unassisted by GOD, we shall FAIL every time, to OBEY...

But when we submit to HIM and HIS POWER... we are able to OVERCOME as did our SAVIOR... for we have submitted ourselves to Spiritual VICTORY in HIS WORD, instead of the Natural DEFEAT found within ours...

CHRIST learned obedience... by LIVING and being TESTED, in the very same WAYS we are... the big difference is POWER.  You and I have BEEN CONCLUDED to UNBELIEF by the same POWER which CONCLUDED Him TO BELIEVE!  JESUS was the FIRST Son to LEARN COMPLETE and PERFECT Obedience... for all Sons before Him, depended upon it...

EXAMPLE:  You have NO MONEY, and a piece of bubblegum lying in a box in the store, does not propose to you that you "steal it" to you, neither does a "red guy" jump up and hint to you this possibility...  the bubblegum lies within ownership of the store (which possession is rightfully within the LAW), and it is YOUR DESIRE to CHEW IT, that "presents" the TEMPTATION to relieve the store of its possession of it... 

Or a person can present the temptation. While I understand your theory about Satan not being a being, it is not something that can dogmatically relied upon to analyze Christ's temptation with Satan. WillieH, Satan just means "opposer." If an angel-being is sent by God to oppose something, that being becomes an opposer/satan. You probably could acknoledge that there can be many different types of satans, without the necessity to EXLUDE it as a being.

I don't need the complication brother... I spent 25 years believing that there was this POWERFUL being with which I did battle... I could not see "him", I could not begin to KNOW what He knew,  I could not match "his" antiquity in my vapor of a life... and then it was revealed to me WHAT "satan" IS...

Through much fussing with Craig, did GOD make the revelation actually occur... "satan" is the single most POWERFUL entity on the earth... "He" is worshipped, feared, written about, worried about, more than anything... Motion pictures and TV productions come out DAILY about "him"... it is ridiculously the single LARGEST deception there IS in the human race!

"satan" is a part of your Natural makeup as a human being Seth... it is the ability to "choose" to transgress the Command of God... No fantasy of a "red guy, with a flowing cape, a pitchfork in one hand, a sceptre in the other"...  ordering the human race around like puppets... 

Name me one instance where you have seen "him" Seth.  Be honest.  "satan" is the single LARGEST decieving element within Christianity which spends as much time on "him" as it does on God...  When all along... IT is as much a part of YOU as your teeth or your arms & legs... IT is that which you DIE DAILY to... the YOU which is the OPPOSER of the Command of God, not some mythical imagined "devil" 

This is another false dilemma. That our own carnal minds can act as an opposer/satan DOES NOT IN ITSELF exclude all other options. Example: PETER WAS A BEING, and what did Jesus call him?

If you examine the text closely Seth... you will SEE that JESUS was addressing "Peter's" agreement with MEN... and with the tainted WAYS of MEN, and not GOD... Re-read it for yourself:

Matt 16:23 -- but He turned and said unto Peter -- get thee behind Me "satan", thou are an offense unto Me, for [here it comes, bro, hope you get this!] ----> THOU SAVOREST NOT the THINGS that BE OF GOD, but THOSE that BE OF MEN -- such as the "THINGS" that Peter... had just spoken!!!

These are the THINGS of MEN, Seth:  (verses 21-22) 

from that time forth began JESUS to shew unto His disciples, how that HE MUST GO unto JERUSALEM, and SUFFER MANY THINGS of the elders and chief priests and scribes, ...and BE KILLED and be RAISED AGAIN the third day... Then PETER took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying [the things of men] --BE IT FAR FROM THEE, Lord... THIS SHALL NOT BE UNTO THEE...

It was THIS RENOUNCEMENT that was "satan", and was that which CHRIST spoke against, for it was the THINGS of MEN... it was NOT Peter that CHRIST spoke against... for goodness sake, bro... He, just 3 verses before, had NOTED that PETER would be GIVEN THE KEYS of the Kingdom of HEAVEN!!

CHRIST is here noting that PETER's words (not Peter himself), was that which was NOT in HARMONY with GOD and HIS WORD...

Therefore the temptation presented to Christ was presented externally to him. How do I know this? Because Christ's mind was not in the Flesh, but in the bosom of his Father completely and without measure. Christ's mind was in God's REST and therefore according to GRACE, was kept supernaturally apart from sin. That God supernaturally changes our desires is exactly what the Gospel is about, and why we must GROW in the Spirit and leave ourselves behind.

No amount of preaching by either of us shall change the other Seth... Just like leaving behind ET, and the "trinity", ...have I left the Halloween character that most Christianity believes in... You are welcome to keep it...

It is more than obvious to me that it is not your time to know this... and it is honorable for you to maintain your faith, until such time as GOD reveals... I walked 25 years without the understanding of the truth of the Salvation of ALL... so I am well aquainted with the DIVINE process... Only GOD can teach us bro...

But Scripture ALSO SAYS that he WAS TEMPTED (God cannot be tempted) and therefore TEMPTATION was PART of CHRIST's experience as a MAN... which does not equate to SINNING...  SINNING is found within the submission to the TEMPTATION...

It says he was tempted. And it says he was without sin. Do you agree that Man can tempt God? That is why it says "Do not tempt the Lord your God."

I do not believe that JESUS was GOD... He was the SON of GOD... He even noted that He had a GOD -- Mark 15:34 -- Matt 27:46 --  GOD was not tempted, JESUS ...was!  GOD is SPIRIT, ...JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6

Scripture notes it as you well know -- Heb 4:15

Hebrews 3:8-10
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Wait a minute. God was tempted? Yes he was. But he was not tempted BY SIN. And Christ was also WITHOUT SIN when temptation was presented to him.

Does that mean that God can FEEL tempted by man?

Sorry Seth, but this TEMPTATION of GOD is NOT the TEMPTATION of men...  God noted that men TRIED Him by PROVOCATION... and DID recieve His anger because of it... they wandered for FORTY YEARS... instead of crossing over...

NO... "temptation" which is noted in Ps 95:8-11 which is quoted in Heb 3:8-10... is NOT temptation to SIN... this was MEN PROVOKING GOD... NOT "tempting" Him to do EVIL... which is the SUBJECT we are discussing concerning the TEMPTATION of MEN... (of which CHRIST is numbered)

So the answer to your question -- Can MAN TEMPT GOD (concerning EVIL)? is NO... God cannot be TEMPTED (with EVIL)... He can however be PROVOKED... which is WHAT HAPPENED in this scenario...

To be continued in PART DOS...

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Seth...

PART DOS:

James 1:14 -- but EVERY MAN... [including the "man" CHRIST] ...is TEMPTED, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire] and enticed...

THIS, does NOT mean that one "ENTICED" is SINNING or has SINNED... it is when the ENTICEMENT is INDULGED [concieved] that SIN is born:

James 1:15 -- THEN, ...when LUST hath CONCIEVED [has been indulged], it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished, bringeth forth death...

Brother, you are doing exactly what Peter admonished us NOT to do, that is to take a SINGLE scripture and establish it as a single/private interpretation. You do realize that sin is within before it is worked outwardly, according the scriptures right?

I have listed MANY verses which combine with one another to establish that "satan" is NOT a being, nor that IT is a "he"... That you cannot answer this verse, serves defeat to your arguement of "satan" as being, ...as far as I am concerned...

Here is what YOU CALL, ..."one verse" 

The Scriptures state:

(1) CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6
(2) CHRIST was TEMPTED (to SIN) -- Matt 4:1-11
(3) That GOD CANNOT be TEMPTED (with EVIL) -- James 1:13 -- CHRIST was...
(4) That EVERY MAN is TEMPTED in the same MANNER -- James 1:14 -- CHRIST was a MAN
(5) That CHRIST was TEMPTED ...AS... are we in ALL POINTS -- Heb 4:15
(6)  There is not even a mention of "satan" in the WORD, until 1 Chron 21:1... there are only 19 mentions of "satan" in all the OT, FOURTEEN of those NINETEEN are in JOB... which many consider a PARABOLIC or METAPHORIC writing... leaving only FIVE verses in the entire OT... in which "satan" appears...

Much like the FALLACY of HELL, ...is its "keeper" preached to ears eager to hear negativity...

The GOSPEL is PEACE bro... there is no room for the furthering of this myth which only displaces GOD in its attentions...

I pray you might lose this attention... 

The LUST you are speaking of brother S... is NOT the desire males have naturally for females.  God gave us to be ATTRACTED to one another, and it is NOT SIN to be attracted to females or vice versa...  It is SIN to engage the mind SEXUALLY of a Woman... which is gone beyond "attraction"... and is INWARDLY INDULGING in UNLAWFUL process... and I do NOT suggest JESUS ever did this... The NATURAL attraction He had for women, as a man, presented FURTHER pondering to Him which He REJECTED...

Desire of WOMAN is not SIN... It is NATURAL and GIVEN of GOD to men... That I desired my wife because she was beautiful did NOT mean that I had sinned as I observed her beauty... To LUST in the HEART of a WOMAN is to have made a SEXUAL fantasy of HER, not just "desire" her... and wish to get to know her...

I know it is not a sin to be attracted to females. It is a sin to look upon them with lust. This is how I know Jesus never did that.

I believe this is what you believe, brother Seth... but JESUS was TEMPTED as are all men... When faced with that TEMPTATION, ...He did not INDULGE the TEMPTATION, ...and THAT is the separation between Him and US.

JESUS, however was TEMPTED to do this, or He was NOT TEMPTED as are we... Nor was He TEMPTED in ALL POINTS that we are TEMPTED...

Actually it says He was TEMPTED in several places in the WORD... It is your present observation which desires (not lusts  ) to insert the word "TESTED"... and thereby negating what actually occured.

The biggest difference in our present observations, is that you must find a way around James 1:14 and explain how it applies to JESUS in different way than it applies to ALL "other" MEN, ...I do not...

You are welcome to believe as you do bro... I see it differently.  Either JESUS OVERCAME that which we DO NOT... or it was a sham.

WillieH, I am not inserting the word "tested." Look it up, the word used is tested, that is what it means.

peirazō
to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.

This is semantics... Like saying "the HOOD" and "the NEIGHBORHOOD" are 2 different things...  The "temptation" we are discussing is a TEST... but it is a MORAL "test"... I am just saying that to call it a "test" is to reduce it from what is actually being discussed...

JESUS did not OVERCOME a TEST... He OVERCAME TEMPTATION...  The word TEMPTATION describes more accurately the TYPE of TEST He endured...

Jesus was enticed and scrutinized, tested. But nothing suggests that any sinful feeling entered into his mind.

Where did I suggest this Seth?  I did not such a thing... this is strawman tactic bro... I, in all our discussion have NEVER SUGGESTED that JESUS allowed SIN to enter His mind.  Which would be that HE CONSIDERED doing what was PROPOSED...  He however DID listen to the proposals... and it is with the MIND that a proposal is HEARD...

Here it is in a nutshell:  I am saying that if a Woman comes up to you, provocatively and whispers to you that she wants you... THIS is a TEMPTATION... and that YOUR EARS heard HER WHISPER, and HER PROPOSAL, does NOT mean that YOU HAVE SINNED...

What shall be SIN is if you ACCEPT her proposal, or you ENTERTAIN it in thought.

And WillieH, what would be a sham is to say that Christ overcame anything of himself.

I agree 100% with this... He OVERCAME, by the POWER of YHVH within... which is exactly HOW this is accomplished IN US as well... the WORD deciding our action, instead of OUR NATURE... which CHRIST had (as a MAN), whether or not you accept it...

Sinful thoughts were not needed for Christ to overcome. It was his FEAR OF DEATH. By overcoming his fear of death, it made him able to reconcile the world.

Sorry bro, but TEMPTATION is NOT SIN... indulging TEMPTATION is ...whether in THOUGHT, WORD or action...

TEMPTATION is PROPOSAL... SIN is the acceptance and indulgence of the proposal... 



...willieH 

[chuckt]

The word "subtil" is often translated as "prudent" or other more glowing terms in the King James version.  Remember, man is being made in God's image. 

actually, the word subtle =`aruwm which the serpent was.

NOW compare to """naked"" which adam and eve are said to be:

arowm from H6191 (in its original sense) aruwm


That is the connection here to zero in on 

adam and eve """"naked""  FLESH.

dirt, earth, lower, carnality, all tie together in how they were NAKED!!!


peace
euty.....er um chuckt

[Seth]

The question is, how much of the impartation of the Divine Nature did CHrist have?

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily



Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God...


"fulness" [of the Godhead]
G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion




"repletion"

The condition of being fully supplied or completely filled.
A state of excessive fullness.
Superabundant fullness
Being filled to the point of bursting.

amen. He had the Holy Spirit without measure. The title of this thread is "You ARE satan." What is the motivating logic to say that? That to be a man means that we have a natural spirit of disobedience in us. 

As Paul (trittep) said: "If Jesus didn't have to overcome lust and evil things that come from the self then He didn't overcome as I have to overcome.  I think bad thoughts so if Jesus is a man like me then He did to."

Now, let's ask ourselves, what is the logical conclusion about Jesus based on the logic and TITLE of this thread? If I, as a man without a full amount of the Spirit, therefore AM satan, what does that make Jesus, if he is like me? You see where it leads. The logical conclusion would have to be: Jesus is Satan.

But I am sure nobody who holds the same logic would actually say those three words, seeing as how blasphemous it would but all signs would have to point there.