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Offline Cardinal

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2009, 03:22:37 PM »
Let's look at all the EXCEPTIONS to Christ being made like unto his brothers.

1) Christ had the Spirit without measure. Did his brothers? NO.
2) Christ was the word made flesh. Were his brothers? NO.
3) Christ was ONE with his Father. Were his brothers? NO.
4) Christ was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. Were his brothers? NO.
5) Christ was without sin. Were his brothers? NO.

 :cloud9: Hi; some points to think on. If you understand the High Calling in Christ Jesus that Paul sought but was out of season for, you understand that ALL ALL ALL of these things are going to be said of those that press in to receive it. And that pressing in requires pressing in past the flesh of Him, because hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Only begotten Son is quite interesting, as Romans 8 talks about all of creation waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. Only begotten means there won't be another one, but because God's Seed is Spirit and is the Word that was from the foundation, we can and have all partaken of that Seed, which has been busy creating a many-membered body, that is also Spirit and will also be the Word made flesh.

There is terrestrial flesh and celestial flesh, and that which is celestial within is going to swallow up that which is terrestrial, ie. mortality swallowed of immortality. Immortality means no more sin, or there could be no immortality. These are they that will know the meaning of, you can't have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son, and to do greater works as He said we would do, means we too must be given the Spirit without measure.

Jesus was the pattern Son, the forerunner of those that enter in behind the veil (High Priestly calling in Christ Jesus), and if there is a forerunner, that means more are to follow. We did not receive His Seed except to be given an opportunity to become firstfruits, the firstfruits of the resurrection (Seed came up out of the earth it was planted in = us). Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2009, 04:44:49 PM »


Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

No my friend...

Christ is simply a title!  The Hebrew word Messiah is written in the Greek as Christ.  Messiah and Christ are the same word in different languages!  The both mean the same thing…  "The Anointed one."   Nothing more, nothing less! 

Paul



But you see Paul, in the scriptures Jesus says He is the "Son of Man" and other times He is called the "Son of God".  See I'm not alone in making this distinction when even Jesus Christ Himself makes it.  And Yes your right the meaning of Christ is "The Annointed".  But it is this ANNOINTING that is divine.  A man is not divine without it.  So if we call Jesus a man then there is an aspect that can't be divine.

Paul


Why do you refuse to believe Jesus…

Joh 8:40  "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:
"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let's see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God"  for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God"  (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son"  in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son's solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:
"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."
Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.
"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel"  (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author

Paul




Jesus is the King of Israel.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2009, 04:49:19 PM »
Hi Paul, I believe that Jesus Christ is the a Son of Man and Son of God.

1Jn 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jn 5:5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I can't argue with scripture.  It tells me that Jesus is the Son of God. 

Paul

I think you do not, I can tell from your post…

Quote
I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures.

You can not separate Jesus from his title… which is God's anointed one! (the Christ/Messiah).

Yes, most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or  "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus' surname. But it is not his name, it is his [/b]title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When we say that we are Christians, we are saying that we are Messiahnist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost.

Let us see what the The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible has to say about the word "Messiah".
Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh's vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos  (New American Bible & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible (ZEB), vol.2, pg. 344).

That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD's anointed"  became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:

Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."

John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."

Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).

Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:
"If God's purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God's authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God's anointed King."

As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God's spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:

Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."

Acts 17:31: "Because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a man he has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead."

All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God's Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:
"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."

The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.

Peace,
Paul




Paul, where are we disagreeing here?  Is it because I call Him the Son of God?  I do believe that Jesus is indeed the Son of God.  I don't believe He IS God.  If I did, then I wouldn't call Him the Son of God but rather, then I would call Him God. But I don't believe He is God, I believe He is the Son of God.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2009, 04:55:55 PM »
:cloud9: Amen, how 'bout that Molly? How indeed could He be David's son if David called Him Lord...... :laughing7:  Blessings..... :girlheart:

Psalms 110:1 is an important O.T. verse that Has God telling us His relationship to His Son.

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psa 110:1) A Psalm of David.

Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament.  It's importance must not be overlooked.  It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.  Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle".  It is "the oracle of Yahweh" (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord.  There should be no capital on the word "lord."  The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse. He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.

The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God.  When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears.  Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man.  God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, in Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here.  In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says,  "O LORD, God  [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?"  In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God:  "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner."  Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord[here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni]."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states "The form Adoni ('my lord'), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai ('Lord') used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = 'my lords.'"  Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States "lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative."

If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.

Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah.  Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's "lord" (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus.  Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament.

Peace,
Paul


Paul, you do realize don't you that while Jesus is NOT God, that He indeed has God within Him?  That ANNOINTING that Jesus received IS God's (The Father) very BEING.  Remember the physical is a type of the Spiritual.  For example, my own son is not me but my own son has me inside him (via the flesh).  Likewise, Jesus has God inside Him via the Spirit.  If we listen to the creation we can understand God and His ways as long as we translate what is physical into that which is Spiritual.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2009, 05:00:22 PM »
Oh great.  I'm satan and Jesus is just a man.  Things are taking a turn for the worse. :laughing7:

These things have to be discerned spiritually, or you can get yourself in a real mess by over-intellectualizing it.

Maybe that's why those great intellectuals, the Pharisees, stoned Steven --He was making them crazy--




51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

 54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.



--Acts 7



Hi Molly, I think once we understand that we are Satan things have taken a turn for the better.  If Satan was another entity that we can point our finger at then what would ever be wrong with carnal nature? 

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2009, 05:04:33 PM »
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself...

--2 Cor 5




...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:28

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2009, 05:13:30 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Remember the physical is a type of the Spiritual.  For example, my own son is not me but my own son has me inside him (via the flesh).  Likewise, Jesus has God inside Him via the Spirit.  If we listen to the creation we can understand God and His ways as long as we translate what is physical into that which is Spiritual.

That's good, but in order to make the analogy more correct, your son would have to be an exact replica of you, your clone.  Then the analogy would fit better.



9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father!

--John 14
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:18:03 PM by Molly »

Offline claypot

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2009, 05:18:48 PM »
This is a great discussion gang and I want to add my 2 cents.

I just don't think Jesus, God, us and all creation is an individual thing. In other words Jesus is not some isolated person living in Tucson or in Heaven or wherever. Sure there is a human we fasten the name of Jesus Christ to but this is a personification of who and what the Christ really is. Just like there is a human I attach my name and essence to yet my humanness is not really me, yet of course it is me to some degree.

OK, what I want to say is this……………….The divine within all of us can never succumb to temptation yet it experiences temptation just because of its association with the flesh. I really think this is what God is trying to teach us. This is not a guy with a halo over here and a being with a pitchfork over there, these are the teachings of each and every person. Within the same lump is the Christ essence and the satan essence and the wisdom essence and so much more. This is all taught in parables and allegories and also using the physical. The physical 'fleshes' out these truthful realities in so many ways.

The Divine within me will never sin, cannot sin. It battles constantly with all that is enmity against It. The flesh essence of all things is a vehicle for God to teach us things. Once it's purpose is complete it will die.

Where this discussion and all discussions get way off base for me is when we start seeing Jesus, God and all things as PRIMARILY separate entities. The usage of the  separate entity picture is to make truth and reality palatable to us but I think we have to grow out of this mindset and see God and His words to us for what they are and that is the highway to who and what He is.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2009, 05:20:17 PM »

No, you don't believe just like the scripture says.  It says that Jesus was a man.  A man conceives evil.  You don't believe that Jesus conceives evil do you?

Paul

I sure do believe what scripture says. It says that Jesus was made flesh. It says that when the Spirit is in us, we are not in the flesh. It says that Jesus had the Spirit without measure. It says that Christ was a man without sin. It literally says all those things. Yes, a man thinks evil thoughts, when he is not apart from sin.


Quote
Then if He was made like unto His brothers then He must be able to conceive sin in His heart then, correct?  If not, what is He being tested for?  He if couldn't be subject to the flesh and we are then He is not like us, correct?

Notice here that at no time did I say He sinned.  I know your probably getting impatient with me comparing Him to a MAN but I do this because the alternative is to declare that He came not as a man and I believe that would be preaching the spirit of antichrist.

Paul you are not considering ALL scripture in your analysis, and are taking single scriptures and setting them up as blanket statements without comparing scripture to scripture. This will always have bad results. For example:

"Then if He was made like unto His brothers then He must be able to conceive sin in His heart then, correct?  If not, what is He being tested for?  He if couldn't be subject to the flesh and we are then He is not like us, correct?"

Let's look at all the EXCEPTIONS to Christ being made like unto his brothers.

1) Christ had the Spirit without measure. Did his brothers? NO.
2) Christ was the word made flesh. Were his brothers? NO.
3) Christ was ONE with his Father. Were his brothers? NO.
4) Christ was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. Were his brothers? NO.
5) Christ was without sin. Were his brothers? NO.

If you continue to set up one "all" scripture as a blanket without acknowledging the exceptions, you will be wrong.

You say:
Notice here that at no time did I say He sinned.  I know your probably getting impatient with me comparing Him to a MAN but I do this because the alternative is to declare that He came not as a man and I believe that would be preaching the spirit of antichrist.

You are falling into a judgment of my motives by saying that I am getting impatient with you comparing him to a man. Don't judge my motives, stick to the conversation. Here is the reason I am not impatient with you comparing him to a man: I ALREADY SAID THAT HE IS A MAN.  :wacko2:

What I also said is that he was a man APART FROM SIN, which is what the Bible says. At no time did you say he committed a sin, but you are saying that His MIND was disobedient to God by virtue of claiming that his mind was CARNAL. NOWHERE in scripture will you EVER find at ANY time a scripture that claims that Jesus Christ had a carnal mind. The Scripture OUTRIGHT PROVES that his mind was SPIRITUAL.

I assure you Paul, Jesus Christ had the mind of his Father in Heaven.






Ok, Seth, well your preaching a Jesus that can't save me.  Because the scriptures are clearly showing me that the savior is a man as I am.  The Jesus I believe in can ACTUALLY overcome evil desires originating in His own heart.  Doesn't sound to me like your savior is capable of that.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2009, 05:26:00 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Remember the physical is a type of the Spiritual.  For example, my own son is not me but my own son has me inside him (via the flesh).  Likewise, Jesus has God inside Him via the Spirit.  If we listen to the creation we can understand God and His ways as long as we translate what is physical into that which is Spiritual.

That's good, but in order to make the analogy more correct, your son would have to be an exact replica of you, your clone.  Then the analogy would fit better.



9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father!

--John 14

Yes, true Molly, so if I was also the Mother then my son would be a direct replica of me.  So who is the mother of the Word of God?  - God.

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2009, 05:29:46 PM »
This is a great discussion gang and I want to add my 2 cents.

I just don't think Jesus, God, us and all creation is an individual thing. In other words Jesus is not some isolated person living in Tucson or in Heaven or wherever. Sure there is a human we fasten the name of Jesus Christ to but this is a personification of who and what the Christ really is. Just like there is a human I attach my name and essence to yet my humanness is not really me, yet of course it is me to some degree.

OK, what I want to say is this……………….The divine within all of us can never succumb to temptation yet it experiences temptation just because of its association with the flesh. I really think this is what God is trying to teach us. This is not a guy with a halo over here and a being with a pitchfork over there, these are the teachings of each and every person. Within the same lump is the Christ essence and the satan essence and the wisdom essence and so much more. This is all taught in parables and allegories and also using the physical. The physical 'fleshes' out these truthful realities in so many ways.

The Divine within me will never sin, cannot sin. It battles constantly with all that is enmity against It. The flesh essence of all things is a vehicle for God to teach us things. Once it's purpose is complete it will die.

Where this discussion and all discussions get way off base for me is when we start seeing Jesus, God and all things as PRIMARILY separate entities. The usage of the  separate entity picture is to make truth and reality palatable to us but I think we have to grow out of this mindset and see God and His words to us for what they are and that is the highway to who and what He is.

cp


The way I understand it Claypot is that by having Christ in us, then that carnal exhibition in us is being destroyed.  But yes, I agree that they are two separate entities.  For example, if we have Christ and then we do fall back and sin then we can't say that Christ in us sinned for Christ is still faithful, but it is us that have sinned via our spirit which is to bear witness with His Spirit that we are the Sons of God. 

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2009, 05:33:02 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Remember the physical is a type of the Spiritual.  For example, my own son is not me but my own son has me inside him (via the flesh).  Likewise, Jesus has God inside Him via the Spirit.  If we listen to the creation we can understand God and His ways as long as we translate what is physical into that which is Spiritual.

That's good, but in order to make the analogy more correct, your son would have to be an exact replica of you, your clone.  Then the analogy would fit better.



9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father!

--John 14

Yes, true Molly, so if I was also the Mother then my son would be a direct replica of me.  So who is the mother of the Word of God?  - God.

Paul
For a physical clone of you, we would only need you.  Then, under a microscope, your DNA and your son's would be indistinguishable.

But, the Word was with God from the beginning, and the Word was God.


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

--John 1


The Word made flesh is the Son--


..(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

--John 1
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:50:57 PM by Molly »

Offline claypot

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2009, 05:48:19 PM »
This is a great discussion gang and I want to add my 2 cents.

I just don't think Jesus, God, us and all creation is an individual thing. In other words Jesus is not some isolated person living in Tucson or in Heaven or wherever. Sure there is a human we fasten the name of Jesus Christ to but this is a personification of who and what the Christ really is. Just like there is a human I attach my name and essence to yet my humanness is not really me, yet of course it is me to some degree.

OK, what I want to say is this……………….The divine within all of us can never succumb to temptation yet it experiences temptation just because of its association with the flesh. I really think this is what God is trying to teach us. This is not a guy with a halo over here and a being with a pitchfork over there, these are the teachings of each and every person. Within the same lump is the Christ essence and the satan essence and the wisdom essence and so much more. This is all taught in parables and allegories and also using the physical. The physical 'fleshes' out these truthful realities in so many ways.

The Divine within me will never sin, cannot sin. It battles constantly with all that is enmity against It. The flesh essence of all things is a vehicle for God to teach us things. Once it's purpose is complete it will die.

Where this discussion and all discussions get way off base for me is when we start seeing Jesus, God and all things as PRIMARILY separate entities. The usage of the  separate entity picture is to make truth and reality palatable to us but I think we have to grow out of this mindset and see God and His words to us for what they are and that is the highway to who and what He is.

cp


The way I understand it Claypot is that by having Christ in us, then that carnal exhibition in us is being destroyed.  But yes, I agree that they are two separate entities.  For example, if we have Christ and then we do fall back and sin then we can't say that Christ in us sinned for Christ is still faithful, but it is us that have sinned via our spirit which is to bear witness with His Spirit that we are the Sons of God. 

Paul

Hey Paul.

What I see is that Christ is not in us but 'He' is not a 'he' at all. Christ is not PRIMARILY a physical essence. The physical representation of Christ is a vehicle for us to use to arrive at its real meaning which is God Himself, the Spirit, the Spiritual realm and essence.

I don't even see 2 separate entities. You, I, God are all in this craziness together…… the same lump so to speak.

You say Christ is still faithful and I agree. That which is within that is called the Christ is perfect and faithful and will never fail 'us'. It cannot fail for it is God 'Himself' Who is not really a 'Him' but you understand I think.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline sheila

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2009, 06:16:20 PM »

  YES!  IT IS POSSIBLE TO LEARN OBEDIANCE WITHOUT

   DISOBEDIANCE!  All things are possible with God.


     Here is How and in what manner Jesus LEARNED OBEDIANCE

  and was PERFECTED THROUGH HIS SUFFERING.Without

   disobediance ever entering in.

  when you suffer for DOING GOOD..you have LEARNED

  OBEDIANCE and been perfected through suffering.

   IT IS THE UNJUST SUFFERING FOR DOING GOOD THAT

   PERFECTS US.[he who has suffered has ceased from sin]

  That is why scriptures exhort us to NOT suffer as an

 evildoer..but that it is GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE that if we suffer

 it be for doing GOOD.

   Everytime you do the right thing..and KNOW that it's going to

 cost you in some way a harm...you are following after the LORD

and doing HIS WILL. It is of the HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU AND IT IS

 THE HOLY SPIRIT'S WORKS.

   You can be sinfree and still be tempted and tried in this

   manner. And you can dwell in sinful flesh..and the spirit in

 you can work in this manner also.

   Under the Old Law covenant..it was an eye for an eye justice

system..of which no-one could be declared righteous[everyone

 being condemned due to sin in them] For it to be perfectly

 fufilled it took a blameless spotless one to fulfill it..and

to suffer the INJUSTICE WILLINGLY FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL .

  IT TOOK THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE


  Every time we do not obey or rebel in someway it is an

 injustice to GOD..BUT HE AND HIS SON BEAR THIS IN

 WILLINGNESS FOR OUR BENEFIT AND MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER

 JUDGEMENT...AND THEIR GRACE AND LONSUFFERING

  DOES NOT FAIL TO SEE US THROUGH


   Being obediant even unto it costing you your life

   IS PERFECTION WHEN DONE OUT OF LOVE FOR YOUR FATHER

  AND YOUR BROTHER...THIS IS THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE


THIS IS THE RIGHTEOUNESS OF GOD

  AND THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST THAT IS IMPUGNED TO

   US...

   GOD IS MORE THAN RIGHTEOUS..HE IS GOOD

  

  

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2009, 06:19:23 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Remember the physical is a type of the Spiritual.  For example, my own son is not me but my own son has me inside him (via the flesh).  Likewise, Jesus has God inside Him via the Spirit.  If we listen to the creation we can understand God and His ways as long as we translate what is physical into that which is Spiritual.

That's good, but in order to make the analogy more correct, your son would have to be an exact replica of you, your clone.  Then the analogy would fit better.



9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father!

--John 14

Yes, true Molly, so if I was also the Mother then my son would be a direct replica of me.  So who is the mother of the Word of God?  - God.

Paul
For a physical clone of you, we would only need you.  Then, under a microscope, your DNA and your son's would be indistinguishable.

But, the Word was with God from the beginning, and the Word was God.


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

--John 1


The Word made flesh is the Son--


..(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

--John 1


See Molly, when I read that the Word was with God, I actually believe were talking about words.  See this is how I have come to know very amazing things from the Bible.  Going back to this physical bible typology for a moment lets take your verse and compare it with the physical:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam and the Rib was Adam.

See the comparison?

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2009, 06:20:31 PM »
This is a great discussion gang and I want to add my 2 cents.

I just don't think Jesus, God, us and all creation is an individual thing. In other words Jesus is not some isolated person living in Tucson or in Heaven or wherever. Sure there is a human we fasten the name of Jesus Christ to but this is a personification of who and what the Christ really is. Just like there is a human I attach my name and essence to yet my humanness is not really me, yet of course it is me to some degree.

OK, what I want to say is this……………….The divine within all of us can never succumb to temptation yet it experiences temptation just because of its association with the flesh. I really think this is what God is trying to teach us. This is not a guy with a halo over here and a being with a pitchfork over there, these are the teachings of each and every person. Within the same lump is the Christ essence and the satan essence and the wisdom essence and so much more. This is all taught in parables and allegories and also using the physical. The physical 'fleshes' out these truthful realities in so many ways.

The Divine within me will never sin, cannot sin. It battles constantly with all that is enmity against It. The flesh essence of all things is a vehicle for God to teach us things. Once it's purpose is complete it will die.

Where this discussion and all discussions get way off base for me is when we start seeing Jesus, God and all things as PRIMARILY separate entities. The usage of the  separate entity picture is to make truth and reality palatable to us but I think we have to grow out of this mindset and see God and His words to us for what they are and that is the highway to who and what He is.

cp


The way I understand it Claypot is that by having Christ in us, then that carnal exhibition in us is being destroyed.  But yes, I agree that they are two separate entities.  For example, if we have Christ and then we do fall back and sin then we can't say that Christ in us sinned for Christ is still faithful, but it is us that have sinned via our spirit which is to bear witness with His Spirit that we are the Sons of God. 

Paul

Hey Paul.

What I see is that Christ is not in us but 'He' is not a 'he' at all. Christ is not PRIMARILY a physical essence. The physical representation of Christ is a vehicle for us to use to arrive at its real meaning which is God Himself, the Spirit, the Spiritual realm and essence.

I don't even see 2 separate entities. You, I, God are all in this craziness together…… the same lump so to speak.

You say Christ is still faithful and I agree. That which is within that is called the Christ is perfect and faithful and will never fail 'us'. It cannot fail for it is God 'Himself' Who is not really a 'Him' but you understand I think.

cp

So what part do you see being annihilated?

Paul

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2009, 06:23:26 PM »
Thank you Sheila!
I was blessed.


                                             www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax0EwhLltcE&feature=related
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 06:50:42 PM by Beloved Servant »

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2009, 07:21:45 PM »
Quote from: Paul
See Molly, when I read that the Word was with God, I actually believe were talking about words.  See this is how I have come to know very amazing things from the Bible.  Going back to this physical bible typology for a moment lets take your verse and compare it with the physical:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam and the Rib was Adam.

See the comparison?

Paul

Yes.


23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

--Gen 1
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 07:25:17 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2009, 07:41:37 PM »
BTW, wow, Sheila! :grin:

Offline sheila

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2009, 07:58:09 PM »
 :thumbsup:

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2009, 08:55:01 PM »
So is man's mind then just a container that either God fills with Good or the Devil fills with evil?

Is a mind that has the Holy Spirit the only mind that is not evil?

Paul
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 08:58:17 PM by trettep »

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2009, 09:14:51 PM »
Ok, Seth, well your preaching a Jesus that can't save me.  Because the scriptures are clearly showing me that the savior is a man as I am.  The Jesus I believe in can ACTUALLY overcome evil desires originating in His own heart.  Doesn't sound to me like your savior is capable of that.

I am preaching the Jesus of the Bible. The reason he is able to save you is because he overcame FEAR OF DEATH. Jesus is the very model of our goal in the Spirit.

HE DID NOT STRUGGLE OF HIS OWN POWER. HE RESTED IN GOD who predetermined Christ's sinlessness. That is the admonition to us in Christ's walk, not to struggle of our own power but to rest in the Spirit who preserves and keeps our minds from sin.

You say "Doesn't sound to me like your savior is capable of that." This shows how little you know about the Gospel. Jesus says "I CAN DO NOTHING OF MYSELF." Jesus was not capable of resisting sin. Only His Father was, which is why Jesus was kept in His Father doing nothing of himself. That is why his mind was KEPT in the promised land, God's rest. The point of the Gospel is not in our struggle against sin, but to grow enough in the Spirit so that we begin to realize how much we depend on the SPIRIT to keep our minds in heaven with him. And when we receive the full inheritance we will BE LIKE HIM when we see him. Just like Christ we will have the Spirit without measure so that just like Christ if we be tempted of the devil, we will be APART FROM SIN.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Jesus was NOT in the bosom of the flesh. He was not in the flesh, but in Heaven, in the bosom of his Father.

Hebrews 2:9-17
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


In all things christ was made like unto his brothers, YET APART FROM SIN. The "all things" spoken of in Hebrews 2 is in regard to the FEAR OF DEATH. Compare the temptation of Christ by Satan in the desert to the struggle in the Garden. When Satan presented temptation to Christ, there is NO indication of a struggle against inward sin. However, in the Garden we se an EXPLICIT struggle against the fear of death by which Christ felt our infirmity.

Regarding sin however:

Hebrews 4:9-15
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For  he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are  apart from sin.


Jesus is UTTERLY CLEAR that lust is sin in the heart. Jesus was WITHOUT sin, which why you don't see the inward struggle with Satan in him. Why? Because he didn't NEED to struggle. He was in God's rest WITHOUT MEASURE. That is why Paul provides the exeption "apart from sin."
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 09:48:49 PM by Seth »

Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2009, 12:30:20 AM »
willieH: Hey brother P... :hithere:

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

The real question is how you can connect the two verses to make Satan into billions of beings through out the ages?

Forget "billions of beings" --- where does it ever indicate in SCRIPTURE that "satan" is even ONE BEING?  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

John 8:44 You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever  he   may be speaking a lie, he  is speaking of his own, for he  is a liar, and the father of it."    :thumbsup:

Paul

Paul... The word ("satan") you above underline as "ADVERSARY" means ACCUSER... IT is the OPPONENT of the LAW, and IS the force or OPPOSITION that is ENACTED when the LAW is transgressed... Which is WHY CHRIST addressed PETER as "satan"... Peter was not a "being" named "satan"... but his WORDS presented OPPOSITION to the mission of CHRIST, and thereby his words were named "satan" -- Matt 16:23 -- Mark 8:33 -- as CHRIST later explained in these verses -- Matt 16:23 -- Mark 8:33 -- 

The words you underline as "he & him" are words (Eikeinos and Autos) which can be translated, "it" or "her" or any other manner of pronoun... so it is up to the concept of the translator, what of these choices (it, he, she, him, etc) appears within the verse (i.e., this translator concieves "satan" as a "he", therefore, all the references in the context TO "satan" are subsequently found as masculine)

This verse only notes that "satan" (whatever "satan" is considered to be), to be "from the BEGINNING" of that which HAS BEGINNING  particularly --MAN -- for what ever "satan" is determined to be [he, she, IT], ...is a MAN-KILLER -- Each "MAN", having a beginning...

It ("satan"/adversity) was noted to be a "man-killer and does not stand in truth" etc...

This verse however, does not indicate that "satan" IS a "being", nor that "satan" was CREATED...

"satan" is adversity... or adversary... which is OPPONENT to TRUTH... and IS a PERMANENT matter of the ETERNAL KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline claypot

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2009, 01:02:32 AM »
This is a great discussion gang and I want to add my 2 cents.

I just don't think Jesus, God, us and all creation is an individual thing. In other words Jesus is not some isolated person living in Tucson or in Heaven or wherever. Sure there is a human we fasten the name of Jesus Christ to but this is a personification of who and what the Christ really is. Just like there is a human I attach my name and essence to yet my humanness is not really me, yet of course it is me to some degree.

OK, what I want to say is this……………….The divine within all of us can never succumb to temptation yet it experiences temptation just because of its association with the flesh. I really think this is what God is trying to teach us. This is not a guy with a halo over here and a being with a pitchfork over there, these are the teachings of each and every person. Within the same lump is the Christ essence and the satan essence and the wisdom essence and so much more. This is all taught in parables and allegories and also using the physical. The physical 'fleshes' out these truthful realities in so many ways.

The Divine within me will never sin, cannot sin. It battles constantly with all that is enmity against It. The flesh essence of all things is a vehicle for God to teach us things. Once it's purpose is complete it will die.

Where this discussion and all discussions get way off base for me is when we start seeing Jesus, God and all things as PRIMARILY separate entities. The usage of the  separate entity picture is to make truth and reality palatable to us but I think we have to grow out of this mindset and see God and His words to us for what they are and that is the highway to who and what He is.

cp


The way I understand it Claypot is that by having Christ in us, then that carnal exhibition in us is being destroyed.  But yes, I agree that they are two separate entities.  For example, if we have Christ and then we do fall back and sin then we can't say that Christ in us sinned for Christ is still faithful, but it is us that have sinned via our spirit which is to bear witness with His Spirit that we are the Sons of God. 

Paul

Hey Paul.

What I see is that Christ is not in us but 'He' is not a 'he' at all. Christ is not PRIMARILY a physical essence. The physical representation of Christ is a vehicle for us to use to arrive at its real meaning which is God Himself, the Spirit, the Spiritual realm and essence.

I don't even see 2 separate entities. You, I, God are all in this craziness together…… the same lump so to speak.

You say Christ is still faithful and I agree. That which is within that is called the Christ is perfect and faithful and will never fail 'us'. It cannot fail for it is God 'Himself' Who is not really a 'Him' but you understand I think.

cp

So what part do you see being annihilated?

Paul

The carnal 'part' when God is done with it.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #124 on: July 05, 2009, 01:12:05 AM »
Behold I stand at the door and knock and all such ideas are not teaching that we are to come to Christ or Christ is to come to us, these are teachings that are saying that when we finally wake up and see what has been true from all time then 'our eyes are opened'. It is, in a very real sense, like coming to someone or someone filling ones heart to realize what is truth.

In other words, there is a great something taking place within our beings and all of us are part of a greater whole and so on. IMO, as we wake up to the fact that we are not an us and them kind of reality or a me and Jesus or a Satan and God kind of thing, but a whole unit kind of reality, then we enter more and more into salvation, we are working out our salvation as the Divine encourages us to do.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.