Author Topic: YOU are Satan...  (Read 27270 times)

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Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2009, 11:42:07 PM »
I agree with a lot of what you said there Willie.  My view of Jesus is as this:

I see Jesus as being born of a virgin by divine direction.  But I see Him being born AS a man and became aware or LEARNED that He was the Christ and because He was givin that Spirit of God, that He was able to learn and partake of things that are heavenly.  I don't see Jesus has having always existed. I do see the Word of God as having always existed.  I know that Jesus is called the Word of God but I think that is because the Word of God made a home in the man Jesus.  Had not that man had the Holy Spirit from birth and had been born of the virgin then I believe He would have simply grown to be like any other man.

Paul

That's fine... you are welcome to see things as you do... and only the Holy Spirit of God can further reveal to either of us... guess we shall agree to disagree for the moment concerning the "ETERNAL" state of the Children of the MOST HIGH...  :cloud9:

The Parable of the LOST SON, as I said, showed Him as WITH the Father, ...leaving (where he was), then RETURNING (to where he was)...

You cannot LEAVE or RETURN to a place or situation that you have never been in...  :reachout:

ALL SONS of GOD are ETERNAL -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- You cannot "become" LOST unless you were NOT LOST to begin with...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2009, 11:52:51 PM »
The Parable of the LOST SON, as I said, showed Him as WITH the Father, ...leaving (where he was), then RETURNING (to where he was)...

But it is the Him then where we differ, if indeed we do differ.  For the Him, that I see as always being with the Father is the Word of God.  After all, it is His actual words.  When I speak anything, then those words that I spoke were actually with me at one time and wherever they go they are still mine,  I'm the copyright owner to them.  They contain attributes of my being.

Quote
You cannot LEAVE or RETURN to a place or situation that you have never been in...  :reachout:

ALL SONS of GOD are ETERNAL -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- You cannot "become" LOST unless you were NOT LOST to begin with...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:


I believe that once we share that same "being" of God that we then can claim to have always been.  So I don't see Jesus as having been born as having ALWAYS BEEN, but once HE was "perfected", then He had always been because He was then that which always was.

Paul

Offline sparrow

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2009, 12:41:42 AM »
THIS realm is ALWAYS a part of ETERNITY, but the events which occur in this REALM, once revealed are not PRACTICED in ETERNITY, other than within the course of TIME... which (time) is SPENT in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... to the CHILDREN of YHVH which have ALWAYS BEEN...

If this realm is always part of eternity...
do we only each experience this realm once?

Or is it always here in case we have to... :sigh: come back to learn or re-learn or learn again, or whatever.

eek.

can't help but think, when I die, I just want to go home and never leave home ever again.

I do have a lot of thoughts about us existing before. So I AM following you on those thoughts, Willie. The thought that this realm is eternal kind of depresses me, though.
Man, I just want to go home.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 12:44:56 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2009, 12:51:26 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

I agree, it is possible that we agree but are expressing with words and viewing with eyes, differently... something we see the same...  :mshock:

The Parable of the LOST SON, as I said, showed Him as WITH the Father, ...leaving (where he was), then RETURNING (to where he was)...

But it is the Him then where we differ, if indeed we do differ.  For the Him, that I see as always being with the Father is the Word of God.  After all, it is His actual words.  When I speak anything, then those words that I spoke were actually with me at one time and wherever they go they are still mine,  I'm the copyright owner to them.  They contain attributes of my being.

THIS is my point, bro!  We are YHVH and HE is US... if indeed He IS "ALL in ALL"...

That He NEVER CHANGES means to me, that He never "becomes" anything... He already IS what He CONTINUALLY, ...IS...

That it is HIS WORD which "created" Creation, means that the Creation is an EXTENSION of HIM and HIS WORD...

If this indeed is so... then WE are HIM and HE is US...  :dontknow:  And THAT is what is BEING REVEALED by this experience in TIME...

The "Creation" is that which proceeds from the MOUTH of GOD... the INVISIBLE WORD, manifest in VISIBLE terms...

And the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL within the HEART of YHVH...

Quote from: willieH
You cannot LEAVE or RETURN to a place or situation that you have never been in...  :reachout:

ALL SONS of GOD are ETERNAL -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- You cannot "become" LOST unless you were NOT LOST to begin with...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I  believe that once we share that same "being" of God that we then can claim to have always been.
 

The words you use above "once we" and "then" are TIME oriented terms Paul... and thereby are a "TIME oriented" vision of the ETERNAL...

The only view of the ETERNAL which is indeed valid is the ETERNAL vision of it...  GOD calls things that "are not" (in terms of time) as though they were...  Which means that from ETERNAL perspective... what GOD declares from His INFINITE position, is ALREADY so... and shall "to the letter" occur in the FINITE realm of TIME, as it is DECLARED from the INFINITE realm of ETERNITY...

So I don't see Jesus as having been born as having ALWAYS BEEN, but once HE was "perfected", then He had always been because He was then that which always was.

Again, this is (in part) describing JESUS from TIME's perspective, instead of completely from HIS ETERNAL state which ...IS... and which He noted to already be a fact -- John 8:58

John 8:58 ...BEFORE Abraham WAS [time confined - finite being] ... I AM [unconfined - infinite being]

If the WORD is ETERNAL... than ALL which proceeds or manifests, FROM IT ...is ETERNAL as well... and is OFFSPRING of it...

Man does not LIVE by bread alone, but [lives or becomes animate] by EVERY WORD which proceedeth from the MOUTH of GOD... for EVERY WORD which proceeds from the mouth of GOD, ...is ALIVE and LIFE ITSELF...

If GOD's WORD brought Creation forth... then Creation is nothing but the MANIFESTATION and EXTENSION of the WORD, and if it is (which it IS), ...then it has the same ETERNAL state, being an EXTENSION or MANIFESTATION of that WORD...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline willieH

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2009, 01:03:56 AM »
willieH: Hi sister Sparrow... :hithere:

THIS realm is ALWAYS a part of ETERNITY, but the events which occur in this REALM, once revealed are not PRACTICED in ETERNITY, other than within the course of TIME... which (time) is SPENT in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... to the CHILDREN of YHVH which have ALWAYS BEEN...

If this realm is always part of eternity...
do we only each experience this realm once?

Or is it always here in case we have to... :sigh:  come back to learn or re-learn or learn again, or whatever.

eek.

can't help but think, when I die, I just want to go home and never leave home ever again.

I do have a lot of thoughts about us existing before. So I AM following you on those thoughts, Willie. The thought that this realm is eternal kind of depresses me, though.
Man, I just want to go home.

Don't worry sis... NO "in case we have to come back"... 

God is well able to teach us all, in the lifetime HE gives each of us, here in time... all that we need to "KNOW", and what part we play in the "interactive" REVELATION of the "KNOWLEDGE"...  :grouppray:

This realm will not BE ETERNAL... but is WITHIN Eternity... which means that its manifestation (where EVIL and GOOD have been contrasted) has ETERNAL implications...

The reason for this realm is the outward EXPRESSION of GOD's HEART... which KNOWS Good and Evil...  The only way EVIL can be shown for what it IS... is for it to be MANIFEST for ALL to see... and to FOREVER know...

Don't be depressed sis...

You will traverse this life in TIME, ...ONCE... then you shall be done with it... And IN that experience, you will ETERNALLY KNOW the JOY and LOVE of GOOD... and NEVER AGAIN experience the EVIL which contrasts it, and which by your KNOWLEDGE OF IT... shall MAGNIFY that LOVE and GOOD, FOREVER...

...willieH  :egyptdance:

Offline sparrow

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2009, 01:07:50 AM »
willieH: Hi sister Sparrow... :hithere:

THIS realm is ALWAYS a part of ETERNITY, but the events which occur in this REALM, once revealed are not PRACTICED in ETERNITY, other than within the course of TIME... which (time) is SPENT in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... to the CHILDREN of YHVH which have ALWAYS BEEN...

If this realm is always part of eternity...
do we only each experience this realm once?

Or is it always here in case we have to... :sigh:  come back to learn or re-learn or learn again, or whatever.

eek.

can't help but think, when I die, I just want to go home and never leave home ever again.

I do have a lot of thoughts about us existing before. So I AM following you on those thoughts, Willie. The thought that this realm is eternal kind of depresses me, though.
Man, I just want to go home.

Don't worry sis... NO "in case we have to come back"... 

God is well able to teach us all, in the lifetime HE gives each of us, here in time... all that we need to "KNOW", and what part we play in the "interactive" REVELATION of the "KNOWLEDGE"...  :grouppray:

This realm will not BE ETERNAL... but is WITHIN Eternity... which means that its manifestation (where EVIL and GOOD have been contrasted) has ETERNAL implications...

The reason for this realm is the outward EXPRESSION of GOD's HEART... which KNOWS Good and Evil...  The only way EVIL can be shown for what it IS... is for it to be MANIFEST for ALL to see... and to FOREVER know...

Don't be depressed sis...

You will traverse this life in TIME, ...ONCE... then you shall be done with it... And IN that experience, you will ETERNALLY KNOW the JOY and LOVE of GOOD... and NEVER AGAIN experience the EVIL which contrasts it, and which by your KNOWLEDGE OF IT... shall MAGNIFY that LOVE and GOOD, FOREVER...

...willieH  :egyptdance:

Willie...  :girlheart:
I'm so glad and thankful that you see it that way.
I really understand what you're saying.It's what is in my heart!
God bless you, bro!

 :HeartThrob:,
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline onlytruth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2009, 01:21:33 AM »
getting in my  :2c:
i agree,with paul(ttretep)
we will be like him(jesus)...as we overcome the flesh and walk in the spirit...I hope that manifestation comes soon.
blessings

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2009, 02:56:57 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

The real question is how you can connect the two verses to make Satan into billions of beings through out the ages?

Forget "billions of beings" --- where does it ever indicate in SCRIPTURE that "satan" is even ONE BEING?  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

John 8:44 You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever  he   may be speaking a lie, he  is speaking of his own, for he  is a liar, and the father of it."    :thumbsup:

Paul

trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2009, 02:57:17 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

I agree, it is possible that we agree but are expressing with words and viewing with eyes, differently... something we see the same...  :mshock:

The Parable of the LOST SON, as I said, showed Him as WITH the Father, ...leaving (where he was), then RETURNING (to where he was)...

But it is the Him then where we differ, if indeed we do differ.  For the Him, that I see as always being with the Father is the Word of God.  After all, it is His actual words.  When I speak anything, then those words that I spoke were actually with me at one time and wherever they go they are still mine,  I'm the copyright owner to them.  They contain attributes of my being.

THIS is my point, bro!  We are YHVH and HE is US... if indeed He IS "ALL in ALL"...

That He NEVER CHANGES means to me, that He never "becomes" anything... He already IS what He CONTINUALLY, ...IS...

That it is HIS WORD which "created" Creation, means that the Creation is an EXTENSION of HIM and HIS WORD...

If this indeed is so... then WE are HIM and HE is US...  :dontknow:  And THAT is what is BEING REVEALED by this experience in TIME...

The "Creation" is that which proceeds from the MOUTH of GOD... the INVISIBLE WORD, manifest in VISIBLE terms...

And the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL within the HEART of YHVH...

Quote from: willieH
You cannot LEAVE or RETURN to a place or situation that you have never been in...  :reachout:

ALL SONS of GOD are ETERNAL -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- You cannot "become" LOST unless you were NOT LOST to begin with...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I  believe that once we share that same "being" of God that we then can claim to have always been.
 

The words you use above "once we" and "then" are TIME oriented terms Paul... and thereby are a "TIME oriented" vision of the ETERNAL...

The only view of the ETERNAL which is indeed valid is the ETERNAL vision of it...  GOD calls things that "are not" (in terms of time) as though they were...  Which means that from ETERNAL perspective... what GOD declares from His INFINITE position, is ALREADY so... and shall "to the letter" occur in the FINITE realm of TIME, as it is DECLARED from the INFINITE realm of ETERNITY...

So I don't see Jesus as having been born as having ALWAYS BEEN, but once HE was "perfected", then He had always been because He was then that which always was.

Again, this is (in part) describing JESUS from TIME's perspective, instead of completely from HIS ETERNAL state which ...IS... and which He noted to already be a fact -- John 8:58

John 8:58 ...BEFORE Abraham WAS [time confined - finite being] ... I AM [unconfined - infinite being]

If the WORD is ETERNAL... than ALL which proceeds or manifests, FROM IT ...is ETERNAL as well... and is OFFSPRING of it...

Man does not LIVE by bread alone, but [lives or becomes animate] by EVERY WORD which proceedeth from the MOUTH of GOD... for EVERY WORD which proceeds from the mouth of GOD, ...is ALIVE and LIFE ITSELF...

If GOD's WORD brought Creation forth... then Creation is nothing but the MANIFESTATION and EXTENSION of the WORD, and if it is (which it IS), ...then it has the same ETERNAL state, being an EXTENSION or MANIFESTATION of that WORD...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I don't know about those perspectives Willie.  I will have to think about them more.  My mind tells me that finite can exist in more finite and Jesus spoke to us via a finite perspective which is in the context of an aion.  So while it is understood that God is eternal and that there is time eternal it is still context that is finite and discussed by Him from the finite perspective.  Even that which is not finite is communicated via the finite since we are in that context when the word "aionios" is used.  To me that word is means "age-enduring" which is defines a continuing point but not an end point.  And that the end point is actually concealed from our understanding.  In other words, I believe Jesus spoke to us from the perspective of a time that is finite to communicate to us what is not finite.

Paul

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2009, 03:04:28 AM »

Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

No my friend...

Christ is simply a title!  The Hebrew word Messiah is written in the Greek as Christ.  Messiah and Christ are the same word in different languages!  The both mean the same thing…  "The Anointed one."   Nothing more, nothing less! 

Paul


trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2009, 03:10:14 AM »

Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

No my friend...

Christ is simply a title!  The Hebrew word Messiah is written in the Greek as Christ.  Messiah and Christ are the same word in different languages!  The both mean the same thing…  "The Anointed one."   Nothing more, nothing less! 

Paul



But you see Paul, in the scriptures Jesus says He is the "Son of Man" and other times He is called the "Son of God".  See I'm not alone in making this distinction when even Jesus Christ Himself makes it.  And Yes your right the meaning of Christ is "The Annointed".  But it is this ANNOINTING that is divine.  A man is not divine without it.  So if we call Jesus a man then there is an aspect that can't be divine.

Paul

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2009, 03:38:31 AM »


Seth read this:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This is talking about Jesus.  He had to LEARN.  He had to reach perfection.  He couldn't reach that perfection unless He overcame that nature of man that He was.  I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures. 

Paul

No my friend...

Christ is simply a title!  The Hebrew word Messiah is written in the Greek as Christ.  Messiah and Christ are the same word in different languages!  The both mean the same thing…  "The Anointed one."   Nothing more, nothing less! 

Paul



But you see Paul, in the scriptures Jesus says He is the "Son of Man" and other times He is called the "Son of God".  See I'm not alone in making this distinction when even Jesus Christ Himself makes it.  And Yes your right the meaning of Christ is "The Annointed".  But it is this ANNOINTING that is divine.  A man is not divine without it.  So if we call Jesus a man then there is an aspect that can't be divine.

Paul


Why do you refuse to believe Jesus…

Joh 8:40  "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:
"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let's see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God"  for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God"  (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son"  in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son's solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:
"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."
Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.
"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel"  (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author

Paul



trettep

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2009, 04:10:40 AM »
Hi Paul, I believe that Jesus Christ is the a Son of Man and Son of God.

1Jn 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jn 5:5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I can't argue with scripture.  It tells me that Jesus is the Son of God. 

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2009, 04:18:18 AM »
 :cloud9: Trettep (Paul) I see what you are saying and I agree. He has shown me the same things regarding His humanity and having to be taught of His Father. The Seed was not flesh and blood, but it appeared in flesh and blood. All seeds bear fruit after their own kind. His kind was the Father. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2009, 04:47:15 AM »

Matthew 22:45
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?





Mark 12:37
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.




 1FROM PAUL, a bond servant of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) called to be an apostle, (a special messenger) set apart to [preach] the Gospel (good news) of and from God,

    2Which He promised in advance [long ago] through His prophets in the sacred Scriptures--

    3[The Gospel] regarding His Son, Who as to the flesh (His human nature) was descended from David,

    4And [as to His divine nature] according to the Spirit of holiness was openly designated the Son of God in power [in a striking, triumphant and miraculous manner] by His resurrection from the dead, even Jesus Christ our Lord (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

    5It is through Him that we have received grace (God's unmerited favor) and [our] apostleship to promote obedience to the faith and make disciples for His name's sake among all the nations,

    6And this includes you, called of Jesus Christ and invited [as you are] to belong to Him.

--Romans 1

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2009, 05:03:49 AM »
Hi Paul, I believe that Jesus Christ is the a Son of Man and Son of God.

1Jn 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jn 5:5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I can't argue with scripture.  It tells me that Jesus is the Son of God. 

Paul

Reading this again--


20And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true--in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.

--1 John 5



John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:08:41 AM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2009, 05:07:09 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen, how 'bout that Molly? How indeed could He be David's son if David called Him Lord...... :laughing7:  Blessings..... :girlheart:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2009, 05:13:02 AM »
Hi Paul, I believe that Jesus Christ is the a Son of Man and Son of God.

1Jn 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jn 5:5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I can't argue with scripture.  It tells me that Jesus is the Son of God. 

Paul

I think you do not, I can tell from your post…

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I'm separating here Christ and Jesus because I see a separation in the scriptures.

You can not separate Jesus from his title… which is God's anointed one! (the Christ/Messiah).

Yes, most of us are more familiar with the Greek translation of this word, which is "Christos" or  "Christ" in English. People have made this title of Jesus into Jesus' surname. But it is not his name, it is his [/b]title. Jesus Christ means Jesus the Christ (Messiah). When we say that we are Christians, we are saying that we are Messiahnist, or followers of the Messiah. The definition of Messiah has been practically lost.

Let us see what the The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible has to say about the word "Messiah".
Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh's vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos  (New American Bible & The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible (ZEB), vol.2, pg. 344).

That the Messiah is supposed to be a king is a well-known fact by anyone who has studied the Bible in depth. Because it was customary to anoint kings, the phrase "The LORD's anointed"  became a synonym for "king" (ZEB, vol.1, pg. 171). This fact can be verified by many verses. Even on the cross the inscription read, "The king of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). I will cover a few verses and then list some more for your own study:

Mark 15:32: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross."

John 1:40 & 49: "We have found the Messiah…Rabbi, you are the Son of God; the king of Israel."

Luke 19:38: "Blessed is the king (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (YHWH).

Other verses: Jeremiah 23:5, Daniel 7:13, Psalms 2:6, Zechariah 9:9, Acts 17:7, 2 Timothy 4:1. There are many more. The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg.200 says:
"If God's purpose is not to be defeated, the true Messiah = King as God's authentic Servant is the only answer. In Heb. Categories the remedy is centered upon a person and not upon an abstract doctrine or an ideal system. There can be no Messianic kingdom without God's anointed King."

As we can see, the Messiah is an actual king of Israel, the ideal king of Israel. He is a man who is anointed by God's spirit. The Messiah is able to perform mighty signs because God has anointed him with His Spirit, not because he is God. It is God working through Jesus. These three verses explain this point better than I ever could:

Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Acts 2:22: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."

Acts 17:31: "Because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a man he has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead."

All the Old Testament Messianic prophecies speak of a man anointed by God's Spirit. None of them mention that the Messiah is supposed to be God. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol.4 pg.201 states of the Messiah:
"But at all times he is the one who acts in the power and under the guidance of the God of Israel."

The confusion lies in that God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus.

Peace,
Paul



Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2009, 05:21:43 AM »
:cloud9: Amen, how 'bout that Molly? How indeed could He be David's son if David called Him Lord...... :laughing7:  Blessings..... :girlheart:

Psalms 110:1 is an important O.T. verse that Has God telling us His relationship to His Son.

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Psa 110:1) A Psalm of David.

Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament.  It's importance must not be overlooked.  It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.  Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle".  It is "the oracle of Yahweh" (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord.  There should be no capital on the word "lord."  The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse. He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.

The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God.  When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears.  Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man.  God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, in Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here.  In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says,  "O LORD, God  [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?"  In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God:  "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner."  Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord[here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni]."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states "The form Adoni ('my lord'), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai ('Lord') used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = 'my lords.'"  Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States "lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative."

If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.

Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah.  Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's "lord" (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus.  Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament.

Peace,
Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2009, 05:57:22 AM »
Oh great.  I'm satan and Jesus is just a man.  Things are taking a turn for the worse. :laughing7:

These things have to be discerned spiritually, or you can get yourself in a real mess by over-intellectualizing it.

Maybe that's why those great intellectuals, the Pharisees, stoned Steven --He was making them crazy--




51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

 54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.



--Acts 7


Offline Cardinal

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2009, 06:40:31 AM »
 :cloud9: You ever wonder why His ministry didn't start till age 30? How did God as flesh stand by and see poverty, sickness, and death all around Him prior to age 30, and do nothing? Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Pierac

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2009, 06:41:57 AM »
Oh great.  I'm satan and Jesus is just a man.  Things are taking a turn for the worse. :laughing7:

These things have to be discerned spiritually, or you can get yourself in a real mess by over-intellectualizing it.

Maybe that's why those great intellectuals, the Pharisees, stoned Steven --He was making them crazy--

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

 54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.



--Acts 7

What is Jesus teaching Molly?

John 17:1  Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father (God) , the hour has come; glorify Your Son (Jesus ) , that the Son (Jesus) may glorify You, (God) 2 even as You (God) gave Him (Jesus ) authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (God) have given Him, (Jesus ) He may give eternal life. John 17:3  "This is eternal life, that they may know You (God), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You (God) have sent.

Molly, why does Jesus, call himself a man, and the Father…the one true God?  Aionan life is in knowing the Answer!!


Paul




Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2009, 08:10:37 AM »
willieH: Hi brother Seth... :hithere:

Btw... it's great having you around these parts again!  :friendstu:

Hi Willie, it's been great talking to you again.  :cloud9:



Quote
One cannot "learn" obedience, unless DISOBEDIENCE has been presented to one as an option...  And that is what TEMPTATION ...does and IS... 

If it were NOT POSSIBLE that when the TEMPTATION was presented to CHRIST, He could not submit to it, then the "OVERCOMING" of TEMPTATION does not actually occur!

The "TEMPTATION" was "OVERCOME" because it was NOT POSSIBLE to DISOBEY... not by OBEDIENCE.

This I disagree with. One can learn obedience without disobedience being an option. By the way, I know you are well versed and totally correct about God's sovereignty, so the idea of "possible disobedience" is curious. Consider this, one can learn obedience by starting as a blank slate, neither disobedient nor obedient. Then, one can learn obedience by being grown in it, without necessitating disobedience. Here is a practical example: I can teach my child not to touch the stove, not becuase my child may have touched it, or even wanted to touch it. However, if I sit my child down and explain and show her how hot it gets, she can learn obedience to that rule without ever having to touch the stove first, or having wanted to touch it.

You say something interesting "when the temptation was PRESENTED" That is the distinguishing factor that recognizes that Christ was touched with the feeling of our infirmity apart from sin. There is a difference between a temptation PRESENTED and a temptation ENTERING. Christ overcame the the temptation presented, by being without sin in his mind.


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But Scripture ALSO SAYS that he WAS TEMPTED (God cannot be tempted) and therefore TEMPTATION was PART of CHRIST's experience as a MAN... which does not equate to SINNING...  SINNING is found within the submission to the TEMPTATION...

CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- Luke 19:10 -- and EVERY MAN is TEMPTED in the SAME WAY:

James 1:14 -- but EVERY MAN... [including the "man" CHRIST] ...is TEMPTED, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire] and enticed...

THIS, does NOT mean that one "ENTICED" is SINNING or has SINNED... it is when the ENTICEMENT is INDULGED [concieved] that SIN is born:

James 1:15 -- THEN, ...when LUST hath CONCIEVED [has been indulged], it bringeth forth SIN and SIN when it is finished, bringeth forth death...

Again, the James scripture is talking about sin in trespass. Jesus talked about sin within the heart. He that looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultery already in his heart. JAMES is talking about when the sin in the heart (lust) becomes sin worked outwardly.

Jesus was without sin. Yes it does say he was tested, but it never says that the temptation ENTERED IN.

 :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 08:49:22 AM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2009, 08:27:33 AM »

No, you don't believe just like the scripture says.  It says that Jesus was a man.  A man conceives evil.  You don't believe that Jesus conceives evil do you?

Paul

I sure do believe what scripture says. It says that Jesus was made flesh. It says that when the Spirit is in us, we are not in the flesh. It says that Jesus had the Spirit without measure. It says that Christ was a man without sin. It literally says all those things. Yes, a man thinks evil thoughts, when he is not apart from sin.


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Then if He was made like unto His brothers then He must be able to conceive sin in His heart then, correct?  If not, what is He being tested for?  He if couldn't be subject to the flesh and we are then He is not like us, correct?

Notice here that at no time did I say He sinned.  I know your probably getting impatient with me comparing Him to a MAN but I do this because the alternative is to declare that He came not as a man and I believe that would be preaching the spirit of antichrist.

Paul you are not considering ALL scripture in your analysis, and are taking single scriptures and setting them up as blanket statements without comparing scripture to scripture. This will always have bad results. For example:

"Then if He was made like unto His brothers then He must be able to conceive sin in His heart then, correct?  If not, what is He being tested for?  He if couldn't be subject to the flesh and we are then He is not like us, correct?"

Let's look at all the EXCEPTIONS to Christ being made like unto his brothers.

1) Christ had the Spirit without measure. Did his brothers? NO.
2) Christ was the word made flesh. Were his brothers? NO.
3) Christ was ONE with his Father. Were his brothers? NO.
4) Christ was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. Were his brothers? NO.
5) Christ was without sin. Were his brothers? NO.

If you continue to set up one "all" scripture as a blanket without acknowledging the exceptions, you will be wrong.

You say:
Notice here that at no time did I say He sinned.  I know your probably getting impatient with me comparing Him to a MAN but I do this because the alternative is to declare that He came not as a man and I believe that would be preaching the spirit of antichrist.

You are falling into a judgment of my motives by saying that I am getting impatient with you comparing him to a man. Don't judge my motives, stick to the conversation. Here is the reason I am not impatient with you comparing him to a man: I ALREADY SAID THAT HE IS A MAN.  :wacko2:

What I also said is that he was a man APART FROM SIN, which is what the Bible says. At no time did you say he committed a sin, but you are saying that His MIND was disobedient to God by virtue of claiming that his mind was CARNAL. NOWHERE in scripture will you EVER find at ANY time a scripture that claims that Jesus Christ had a carnal mind. The Scripture OUTRIGHT PROVES that his mind was SPIRITUAL.

I assure you Paul, Jesus Christ had the mind of his Father in Heaven.




« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 08:41:19 AM by Seth »

Offline Molly

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Re: YOU are Satan...
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2009, 08:45:16 AM »
Quote from: Pierac
Molly, why does Jesus, call himself a man, and the Father…the one true God?  Aionan life is in knowing the Answer!!

well, I'm pretty tired, and what you are presenting requires a complicated discussion, so I'm not sure I should even try.  But, I'll say a few things.  Jesus is our forerunner.  He is the Way.  In that respect, everything he does not only fulfills prophecy, it shows us the way.  He is the road, so to speak, --walk down this narrow path and you will get there.   So, he makes John baptize him, for instance, even though John is scandalized by the thought (I am not worthy to even tie your shoes).  Why?  Because he is giving us a pattern to follow, step by step.  The pattern is rooted in the natural (Son of Adam) and then it takes flight into the heavenlies [Son of God].  But, John tells us that in the beginning, it started in the heavenlies.  He is the Word become flesh--and God has promised us he will write his laws on our minds and hearts--and give us a new heart of flesh.  Everything Jesus does on earth, we will do, and greater.

God is Spirit and we are to worship him in spirit.  We are not to worship a man--we are to worship God. This is a warning that men continually break to their destruction.   But Jesus--

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


"fulness'

G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.